What is death?

[David64]

The OT isn't really my expertise.

That, in part, is your problem.

Jesus said one must live by every word that comes out of God's mouth.

And again, the Bible says all scripture is for our correction ect, ect.

You need to start at the beginning and learn the founding pricipals first before you try to understand the difficult words of Paul.

You build on sand, you have no foundation.

 

[from scratch]

That, in part, is your problem.

Jesus said one must live by every word that comes out of God's mouth.

And again, the Bible says all scripture is for our correction ect, ect.

You need to start at the beginning and learn the founding pricipals first before you try to understand the difficult words of Paul.

You build on sand, you have no foundation.

Look if you don't want to explain/discuss your Scriptures don't post em. If you only want to heckle someone do so elsewhere.

I'll be most happy to discuss with you. but you have to provide more than one liners and discussion with your supporting scriptures and no complaining. Show me where I'm wrong. When I object handle that objection with more that some catty remark. Do you need some illustration about what I'm saying?

Hey I'm not totally lost about or in the OT. My focus is the NC/NT. I can certianly talk intelligently about the OT Scriptures. I even quote them and have discussed them at length with the pro law crowd. Bet I'm up to the challenge. So bring it on.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I just think it is nifty how rabbit and yosemite, are on the same calendar, and it is great how they come and go at the same time. I guess you're both on the same clock.

Luv you guys...

nice of you to notice.

if you must know, Yosemite Sam and i are friends.

we were roommates in the air force years ago and we stay in touch.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I found no such evidence in any of your verses that animals are called souls. I do see that they are caled living creatures.

I have looked and read the definitions of creature(s) and I do see your point if you want to only consider your selected definition of the the words in question. I however disagree based on the broad definitions readily available in hard copy and on the net. Each of us can support our points with the same words. I still generally hold that animals don't posssess souls and this would fall withing the scope of the word. Animals don't get redeemed. Only man. It is obvious that animals have a will and can be trained. This however dosn't mean they have a soul such as man. God didn't breathe into them as He did man. In the creation man is set apart from everythings else as a special creation. I think this is why the enemy of my soul is jealous of man. No animal is elevated the the status of man or better.

The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss creation or the difference between man and animals. The purpose is to discuss death and specifically that of man.

no, animals don't have souls, just like man doesn't have a soul. they are souls!

now check this out:

Genesis 7:17-24(NKJV)
17Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22All in whose nostrils was the breath (Septuagint and Vulgate omit of the spirit.)of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

all flesh have the "breath of life", which includes both man and beast.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I take this as an additional aspect of man and not the only inclusive aspect of man. I'll admit that I'm at a loss as to how to communicate this to you.

i understand. i find it tough myself, in explaining how i see it to others.

 

[CGL1023]

Interesting that anyone could even not understand death. NTL there is more than one kind of death. The human can die twice. How is this? The scripture speaks clearly about a sceond death.

I have only read a sample of the posts so far but I have not seen it mentioned that that we, as God's creation, are eternal beings (Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.). This would seem to be a reasonable starting point for the discussion, "What is death?".

All humans experience degradation of their flesh starting from birth. At some point the breath of life in a person ceases. We refer to this as death (Heb 9:27). The person doesn't cease to exist at his expiration. That person, if saved, is spoken of as being absent from the body and present with the Lord (Col 2:5).

We see a picture of this in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-29). Both the righteous and the unrighteous are represented along with their eventual outcomes. The rich man, Lazarus and father Abraham are all present. They communicate and are recognizable to one another. The rich man experiences heat/agony and desires relief. He experiences emotional pain at the thought of his brothers following in his footsteps, etc.

These individuals are existing in eternity. The rich man is experiencing the second death. Lazarus is experiencing life eternal. Both men are fully conscious beings and will be conscious forever.

 

[zeke37]

OK you did say can communicate. This means that they're alive and not mere dust. For the purposes of the discussion can and do communicate who can communicate are alive and not anniniliated. The emotions are also shown to be in existence as well. I never heard of dust having a tongue or speaking. My guess is that you know about some very unusal dust and worthy of fame. Are you worth millions? You should be for exposing and knowing of this very unusual dust. Do you get my drift yet?I don't read does. Do you? where?

why the attitude BROTHER?

and what are you talking about?
the dead exist in heaven today, even if their flesh bodies are long since dust.
they are concious, not literally sleeping....(only sleeping from life on earth)

there is the flesh body and there is the spiritual body.
we shall all bear both.

the quote you are arguing says "is able", which means the opposite of "unable".

Hmm! very interesting. I wonder if universal salvation isn't indicated. If so all religious practice is worthless as all will go to heaven if I read the above correctly at least from one of the parties involved. I haven't read all the thread yet as I've been out most of the day.

i do not believe in universal salvation, nor are my posts in any way pointing to that.

 

[Mikecpking]

I found no such evidence in any of your verses that animals are called souls. I do see that they are caled living creatures.

The root word is 'nephesh' which is translated into 'soul' or 'living creatures.

I have looked and read the definitions of creature(s) and I do see your point if you want to only consider your selected definition of the the words in question. I however disagree based on the broad definitions readily available in hard copy and on the net. Each of us can support our points with the same words. I still generally hold that animals don't posssess souls and this would fall withing the scope of the word. Animals don't get redeemed. Only man. It is obvious that animals have a will and can be trained. This however dosn't mean they have a soul such as man. God didn't breathe into them as He did man. In the creation man is set apart from everythings else as a special creation. I think this is why the enemy of my soul is jealous of man. No animal is elevated the the status of man or better.

The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss creation or the difference between man and animals. The purpose is to discuss death and specifically that of man.

Men are made in the image of God, but death in the biblical sense is the return of ruach breath to God , we returning to dust until the the resurrection. The life (nephesh) ceases to exist.

 

[Mikecpking]

It could help if I knew where you got this info. Thanks.

Hi Scratch,
It was part of the threology course I did, but its not online.

It is run by

www.workshop.org.uk

You could do some online study from here:
Dr. Tory Hoff

This will explain the meaning of 'nephesh' in the highest detail.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I have only read a sample of the posts so far but I have not seen it mentioned that that we, as God's creation, are eternal beings (Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.). This would seem to be a reasonable starting point for the discussion, "What is death?".

All humans experience degradation of their flesh starting from birth. At some point the breath of life in a person ceases. We refer to this as death (Heb 9:27). The person doesn't cease to exist at his expiration. That person, if saved, is spoken of as being absent from the body and present with the Lord (Col 2:5).

We see a picture of this in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-29). Both the righteous and the unrighteous are represented along with their eventual outcomes. The rich man, Lazarus and father Abraham are all present. They communicate and are recognizable to one another. The rich man experiences heat/agony and desires relief. He experiences emotional pain at the thought of his brothers following in his footsteps, etc.

These individuals are existing in eternity. The rich man is experiencing the second death. Lazarus is experiencing life eternal. Both men are fully conscious beings and will be conscious forever.

1 John 3:15(NKJV)
15Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[from scratch]

no, animals don't have souls, just like man doesn't have a soul. they are souls!

now check this out:

Genesis 7:17-24(NKJV)
17Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22All in whose nostrils was the breath (Septuagint and Vulgate omit of the spirit.)of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

all flesh have the "breath of life", which includes both man and beast.

So what ever are you talking about? I'm talking about death and not just about the physical body as you seem to be doing. Yes both animals and humans have breath and require it to live. However the breathe that God breathed into man does something different to man the the air that both animals and man breathe. Both require oxygen to live. Oxygen doesn't comprise the soul. Jesus spoke of them as 2 different items in Mat 10:28.

Soul is -
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)


Body is -
1) the body both of men or animals
a) a dead body or corpse
b) the living body
1) of animals
2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
a) so in the NT of the church
4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

Now please consider all the definition of each word. I used the whole definition so that you couldn't accuse me of being selective and ignoring your POV. The definitions provide for a distinctive difference between animals and mankind.

Now you are free to expalin how and where the Scripture indicates that animals are spoken of as having redeemable souls. Animals and humans are on a different level in relationship to God. Please show where animals are in rebellion to God in any sense especially as in the sense of man. Show anywhere that animals are redeemed except the first born which has nothing to do with the animal itself or its life, function and relationship with God.

Where does the Scripture refer to animals as a living soul? The breath of life isn't the soul.

 

[from scratch]

i understand. i find it tough myself, in explaining how i see it to others.

I think I understand exactly what you're saying. Man and animals aren't on equal terms or relationship to God.

Animals are limited to life function only. They don't have marriages. Very few of them have life partners such as healthy humans. But it isn't a marriage relationship as in the sense of man and woman.

 

[from scratch]

I have only read a sample of the posts so far but I have not seen it mentioned that that we, as God's creation, are eternal beings (Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.). This would seem to be a reasonable starting point for the discussion, "What is death?".

All humans experience degradation of their flesh starting from birth. At some point the breath of life in a person ceases. We refer to this as death (Heb 9:27). The person doesn't cease to exist at his expiration. That person, if saved, is spoken of as being absent from the body and present with the Lord (Col 2:5).

We see a picture of this in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-29). Both the righteous and the unrighteous are represented along with their eventual outcomes. The rich man, Lazarus and father Abraham are all present. They communicate and are recognizable to one another. The rich man experiences heat/agony and desires relief. He experiences emotional pain at the thought of his brothers following in his footsteps, etc.

These individuals are existing in eternity. The rich man is experiencing the second death. Lazarus is experiencing life eternal. Both men are fully conscious beings and will be conscious forever.

Please read Genesis. What you have said comes from observation of the current status of man's body. If what you say isn't related to sin then why would God say you shall die. Apparently death wasn't expected or in the program as created. Death wouldn't have been punishment. What happened in the garden?

Another problem I have is your post seems to be playing oposite sides of the same fence. Where I live straddling the fence coul hurt alot. Barbed wire isn't real comfortable.

 

[from scratch]

why the attitude BROTHER?

and what are you talking about?
the dead exist in heaven today, even if their flesh bodies are long since dust.
they are concious, not literally sleeping....(only sleeping from life on earth)

there is the flesh body and there is the spiritual body.
we shall all bear both.

the quote you are arguing says "is able", which means the opposite of "unable".

Hey I'm sorry that you think it is a tude. I just suggesting you take this public it would make a great sensation and be worth millions. People would gobble this right up. I do assume you watch TV and listen to the radio. These people are making money.

The phrase is able is a long ways from does at least as I understand words. But maybe I have a wrong understanding. So would you like to take a stab at expalining these thing to me? Please do. I hope you will. You call possibilities a historical fact. Just ain't so. What does destroy mean?

i do not believe in universal salvation, nor are my posts in any way pointing to that.

Got me fooled or you need to explain yourself better.

 

[from scratch]

The root word is 'nephesh' which is translated into 'soul' or 'living creatures.

Indeed it is. Does this mean that animals have a soul as man does? Please expalin.

Men are made in the image of God, but death in the biblical sense is the return of ruach breath to God, we returning to dust until the the resurrection. The life (nephesh) ceases to exist.

When I read Genesis I wonder what God is talking about when He says you will die. Look at the account for yourself. Did anything change? Was anything promised? Was there a posibility to restore anything? I hold that indeed death occured then and there. Yeppers both continued to exist in the flesh. Am I talking about mystical superstiton? I don't think so but leave the door open. How did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to be born again? Was Jesus promoting some mystical pagan lie? Please explain.

If breath is the soul then you have a point. If that is so then I fully agree with the surface understanding referenced in this thread from Ecclesiastes. If this is true there is no eternal life and redemption means nothing because everthing returns to God in its original form which doesn't include a soul. I don't subscribe to the idea that a soul's existance depends on breathing. I don't think Jesus did either. He said both body and soul which are 2 different words in the original Greek text. Now somebody is wrong. Is it God (Jesus)? Have my sincere doubts it is Jesus.

The other choice one has is to prove the text is fraudlent. Can that be done. If so then I have believed a lie.

 

[from scratch]

Hi Scratch,
It was part of the threology course I did, but its not online.

It is run by

www.workshop.org.uk

You could do some online study from here:
Dr. Tory Hoff

This will explain the meaning of 'nephesh' in the highest detail.

OK I considered the source. I really don't have the time to take a course from Dr. Troy Hoff. You're free to make points from his stuff here for the purpose of discussion, though. Just because he has some letters associated with his name gives him no creditblity. It only says he has studied and aquired opinons. I didn't find any religious references in his biography. Thus I really don't by his religious understanding.

 

[CGL1023]

Please read Genesis. What you have said comes from observation of the current status of man's body. If what you say isn't related to sin then why would God say you shall die. Apparently death wasn't expected or in the program as created. Death wouldn't have been punishment. What happened in the garden?

Another problem I have is your post seems to be playing oposite sides of the same fence. Where I live straddling the fence coul hurt alot. Barbed wire isn't real comfortable.

One thing that happened in the Garden of Eden was that Adam and Eve's free will was created to be sovereign -- they could choose any thing they desired and God would not intervene in the least.

Eve, in her temptation, could have chosen to ask God's advice regarding the serpent's offer to 'eat of the fruit'. Had she done that we would have been a hugely different outcome.

God knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10) and was not surprised by anything that happened in the garden.

As to your second point, my post has scriptural support.

 

[zeke37]

Hey I'm sorry that you think it is a tude.

what is a "tude"? attitude? you clearly are angry and are resorting to namecalling and making light of things.

you are not sorry, obvioiusly, as your attitude continues in your next sentence.

I just suggesting you take this public it would make a great sensation and be worth millions. People would gobble this right up. I do assume you watch TV and listen to the radio. These people are making money.[/color]

see....
attitude....

and, take what public? what are you on about? why this tangent?

The phrase is able is a long ways from does at least as I understand words.

good for you...is able shows that that is one of the choices.
if scripture had said, unable, you'd have a leg to stand on.

But maybe I have a wrong understanding.

absolutely.

So wuold you like to take a stab at expalining these thing to me?

what things? you have not articulated yourself well enough for me to know what you are going on about????

Please do. I hope you will. You call possibilities a historical fact. Just ain't so.

i never called a possiility a historical fact...especially when the event that we are discussing is not history, but future...lol.

What does destroy mean?

i didn't think anyone here needed that explanaition...
most of us leared that word in early grade school.

what do you suppose it means if not annihilation?

Got me fooled or you need to explain yourself better.

maybe you got confused or something, seeing that you are arguing with multiple folks here...
my point was that i believe that the evil folks will be completely destroyed at judgement. i believe in annihilationism.

that is pretty much the opposite of univeralism.
lol.

 

[patience7]

Indeed it is. Does this mean that animals have a soul as man does? Please expalin.When I read Genesis I wonder what God is talking about when He says you will die. Look at the account for yourself. Did anything change? Was anything promised? Was there a posibility to restore anything? I hold that indeed death occured then and there. Yeppers both continued to exist in the flesh. Am I talking about mystical superstiton? I don't think so but leave the door open. How did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to be born again? Was Jesus promoting some mystical pagan lie? Please explain.

If breath is the soul then you have a point. If that is so then I fully agree with the surface understanding referenced in this thread from Ecclesiastes. If this is true there is no eternal life and redemption means nothing because everthing returns to God in its original form which doesn't include a soul. I don't subscribe to the idea that a soul's existance depends on breathing. I don't think Jesus did either. He said both body and soul which are 2 different words in the original Greek text. Now somebody is wrong. Is it God (Jesus)? Have my sincere doubts it is Jesus.

The other choice one has is to prove the text is fraudlent. Can that be done. If so then I have believed a lie.

Genesis 2:7b and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. v17b for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Did Adam and Eve physically die? NO. Body is one thing, soul is another, and the spirit of man is another. By the union of "body" and "pneuma" (spirit), man becomes a "living soul" i.e. a living being. When man's breath ceases, he dies and his body returns to dust (Gen. 3:19) and the spirit returns "to God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7) Psalm 104:29b thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to dust.
Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

I believe that it was that spiritual connection with God that died. Then throughout the OT God placed his spirit upon certain believers - and in the NT with the new birth we now are now reconciled back to God and have the holy Spirit within us - the same as when Adam and Eve walked in the garden with God but lost when they believed and accepted the temptation from Satan. Anyway, that is what I believe. I hoped it helped.

 

[from scratch]

Genesis 2:7b and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. v17b for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Did Adam and Eve physically die? NO. Body is one thing, soul is another, and the spirit of man is another. By the union of "body" and "pneuma" (spirit), man becomes a "living soul" i.e. a living being. When man's breath ceases, he dies and his body returns to dust (Gen. 3:19) and the spirit returns "to God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7) Psalm 104:29b thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to dust.
Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

I believe that it was that spiritual connection with God that died. Then throughout the OT God placed his spirit upon certain believers - and in the NT with the new birth we now are now reconciled back to God and have the holy Spirit within us - the same as when Adam and Eve walked in the garden with God but lost when they believed and accepted the temptation from Satan. Anyway, that is what I believe. I hoped it helped.

Interesting. Is the soul the spiritual connection? If it is then the soul died that day. The narrative certianly notes a difference in Adam and Eve. We have no further discussion of Adam and Eve so we can't really say what the end results were. Death has been defined in this thread as seperation. I think this fully occured. Being born again rekindles this relationship.

I believe that more than the named people of the OT had full fellowship with God. There simply isn't room in a book to list all of them. Lets name the 7,000 that God said loved Him. I'm sure that there were more. How many more doesn't matter.