Do I have to believe in Calvin to be a Christian?

[razeontherock]

Any time you add an "ISM" onto something, you have boxed in truth to your perceptions. With that kind of narrow-mindedness, you'll never find anything except that which fits your views already.

Can I quote you on that? Oh wait, I just did Not a bad POV ...

 

[GrayAngel]

No. You do not have to be a believer in Calvinism to be a saved Christian. Calvin didn't even exist until long after Christianity started, although the theology concerning predestination has always been in the Bible, even in Exodus.

It's not a requirement to believe in predestination to be saved. I consider the free will v. predestination debate secondary theology. If you believe in Jesus as God in human flesh who came and died for the sins of the world, and if you live your life accounting to God's standards (knowing you will never be perfect), then you're safe.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't think there's any merit to any "free will vs predestination" debate. A good understanding of the two renders them compatible.

 

[elopez]

I'm less concerned with defining what the whole of "Christendom" is than with being a Christian. I'm less concerned with being religious than with actually following God. Calvinism makes up a large portion of Protestantism, so it's a real question I have. But since Calvin got much of his ideas from Augustine, maybe I should have worded the question differently?

I am not sure if wording the question would have made a difference or not. The point is Calvinism or even Protestantism is not the whole of Christianity.

The Catholic Church loves Augustine and his writings, which all promote the same beliefs as Calvin. The difference is, though, that Calvin is at least honest enough to admit if god chooses some, by default, he damns others. There is no middle ground on that topic. If one is true, then the other must also be true.

Actually Catholics favor both Augustine and Aquinas, both of which don't exactly say the same thing as Calvin and especially not Aquinas which as I said maintains predestination just as not how Calvin saw it.

To me if God has eternally elected some then yes, the rest are damned. However God doing the damning is what I question. It depends on what you mean by that phrase. I take it to mean as again there is the eternal decree of the elect there is an eternal decree of the damned, but the decree of the elect is not equal to the decree of the damned in that the former is God intervening to save man and the latter as God having no intervention at all.

 

[Aeneas]

I'm a Christian and I think Calvin was dead wrong. So herp-derp.

 

[DCJazz]

I don't even know who Calvin was. But I know who Christ is, even if I can't say I understand Him completely.

 

[2thePoint]

From reading Calvin or Augustine, I feel like I want to vomit. A good theologian doesn't mean anything special to me. It is no different than a professor who studies Greek mythology or classic literature. I don't make my living off of God, gods or theologies, so why should they?

As for the Reconstructionists, that is the darkest side of Calvinism outside of Westboro, so I'd prefer not even to go there, for it will only add to my hate of Christianity.

I agree on all counts. But what we hope to accomplish is to separate Jesus from this religion that supplanted his radical departure from such things. Religion is like a vaccination; it gives just a tiny bit of spirituality but keeps you from catching the real thing.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

<edit>

As a former Christian, I already know all about the church divisions, another reason to want to walk away from it all. But that aside, the biggest problem is this idea, "god has chosen to create a world where he damns people." I don't agree with that. I would sooner lean towards universalism than take that view. Or better yet, just throw Christianity entirely in the trash since its god is a wicked being.

I have no doubt the true God is loving and good. But if this is Christianity's view of god, then I have no doubt Christians have got the wrong god. The character of their god is more like that of the one Christians refer to as the devil. And yes he is very real, that much I know. Christianity is essentially a form of Islam, aside from the Jesus part. A religion created by an evil, malevolent being who causes and creates wars, evil and wants to damn as many people possible as it can, who predestines or plans, every rape, murder and evil thought.

 

[ChristianT]

A religion created by an evil, malevolent being who causes and creates wars, evil and wants to damn as many people possible as it can, who predestines or plans, every rape, murder and evil thought.

this is not Christianity! This is only calvin's take on it. G-d doesn't plan and execute every rape, murder, and evil thought! such things are sin! sin is separation from G-d! you're saying G-d is a separation from himself! how is that possible? the rapist, murderor, and sinner is the one who chose to do that. We are not some puppet controlled by G-d; if so, how can some choose not to follow, and some choose not? If what the Bible said is true, then G-d wants everyone to follow Him. Wouldn't He make everyone follow Him if we were puppets with no choice?

 

[hedrick]

As a former Christian, I already know all about the church divisions, another reason to want to walk away from it all. But that aside, the biggest problem is this idea, "god has chosen to create a world where he damns people." I don't agree with that. I would sooner lean towards universalism than take that view. Or better yet, just throw Christianity entirely in the trash since its god is a wicked being.

I have no doubt the true God is loving and good. But if this is Christianity's view of god, then I have no doubt Christians have got the wrong god. The character of their god is more like that of the one Christians refer to as the devil. And yes he is very real, that much I know. Christianity is essentially a form of Islam, aside from the Jesus part. A religion created by an evil, malevolent being who causes and creates wars, evil and wants to damn as many people possible as it can, who predestines or plans, every rape, murder and evil thought.

As you may know, universalism was considered acceptable in the early Church. Modern universalism came from the Calvinist tradition. While I think it's a less likely reading of Jesus' teaching, I don't think it's impossible.

Conditional immortality is another approach. which seems like a more plausible reading.

I also don't think we know what design options were available to God. Christianity has been affected by philosophical concepts of omnipotence and things like impassibility. These are not necessarily Biblical.

But the original post wasn't asking about hell. It was asking about Calvinism. My point was that damnation is something that all Christians have to deal with. Calvinism doesn't create the issue. Of course the alternatives I mentioned would take you beyond Calvin. But the people who argue against Calvinism typically still believe in eternal damnation, divine omnipotence, and divine foreknowledge, which I believe are enough to create all the moral problems. That's why I don't normally associate them with questions about Calvinism.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

As you may know, universalism was considered acceptable in the early Church. Modern universalism came from the Calvinist tradition. While I think it's a less likely reading of Jesus' teaching, I don't think it's impossible.

Conditional immortality is another approach.

But the original post wasn't asking about hell. It was asking about Calvinism. My point was that damnation is something that all Christians have to deal with. Calvinism doesn't create the issue.

Calvinism certainly does capitalize on damnation though.

 

[2thePoint]

Seeking, this article may interest you.

Scripture calls Satan "the god of this age", and when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus never questioned his ability to offer Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world". Satan acquired the rights to this world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. So what would we expect from such a world? Only evil all the time. Yet we see a lot of good, too, which shouldn't be possible unless Satan is limited by God. And that's what we see: a world of contrasts and struggles between good and evil. But it's temporary, and in the end God will see to it that justice is served--- and mercy is granted where possible.

 

[Hentenza]

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[FMX]

I don't even know what Calvin is

 

[ChristianT]

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that should let you know who calvin is and what he believed in.

 

[GrayAngel]

People, the question is "Do I have to be a Calvinist to be a Christian." It is not, "What do you think about Calvinism?"

There are other forums to debate the latter topic. And some of these anti-Calvinist posts are bordering on flaming.

 

[razeontherock]

To me if God has eternally elected some then yes, the rest are damned.

But that does not necessarily follow! It is merely an assumption; human closure, against which we are to guard.

 

[razeontherock]

Religion is like a vaccination; it gives just a tiny bit of spirituality but keeps you from catching the real thing.

OOOH me likey

 

[razeontherock]

I have no doubt the true God is loving and good. But if this is Christianity's view of god, then I have no doubt Christians have got the wrong god. The character of their god is more like that of the one Christians refer to as the devil.

You already know what I have to say to this: talk to some real Christians and they will not only agree, but give you beneficial info to grow on. That only false teaching leaves you with the impression that "Christians have the wrong God."

And yes he [satan] is very real, that much I know. Christianity is ... a religion created by an evil, malevolent being who causes and creates wars

Just use your logic now. You know evil incarnate. How does G-d not create war against him?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

If Christians are so against religion as you say, why do you even call yourself a Christian then in the first place?