Defending the truth of Jesus

[hikersong]

Nice analogy! (Just chiming in to say that I don't think reading the unforgivable sin as = not believing makes sense, so this stalemate should be easily resolved)

I didn't think you did. But Spiritlight seemed to think that the two were connected. Doctrine is a very personal thing, it seems.

BTW. For the record, one thing I appreciate about you Ray is that you take all the criticism on the chin without taking it personally. Doesn't stop me getting less infuriated with your reasoning, but at least it helps keep lines of communication open.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Well the fact that you admit that God never spoke to you reveals a lot about why your past experience with the faith lacked veracity. I think you are probably one of those who have gone along with the crowd while it seemed fashionable, but not one of those who has really poured his heart out to seek the Lord. Thus when it came to crunch, you didn't have the real experience with God, as you say it was only an emotional hype and your house fell flat on the sand. You probably have a good foundation of knowledge should you want to resurrect your house again, but it is definitely going to require you to want to know the goodness of God. It seems to me from watching your posts that you seek gratification more from painting God as a monster. I don't think that is particularly mature behavior considering who God is said to be (you know, the one who gives and takes according to His unparalleled wisdom). It might help you to get out and experience sermons from different denominations, couldn't do any harm could it, and it would certainly give you a more diverse range of opinion to ponder. Pop along to a big Anglican and Catholic church one Sunday, if it is a well funded venue then they will probably have fairly well-qualified teachers. I have found from my experience that the teachers in those particular denominations are fairly pragmatic.

I get this kind of thing a lot when I say I used to be a Christian. The nutshell reply is "oh you weren't a real Christian". I was. I believed in God, I believed in the risen, resurrected and soon-to-return™ Jesus. I spoke in tongues, I prophesied, I got "lost in the Spirit", etc. Yet because I didn't hear voices I must not have been a Christian. I spent years seeking God, I studied the Bible, listened to sermons online, bought teaching tapes, prayed in tongues for hours on many occasions. You must be one of those Christians who follow the "once saved, always saved" rule. Well, I was a genuine Christian, now I'm an atheist.

Also, I've been through practically every denomination I care to - from Baptists all the way to Pentecostals and Word Of Faith and everything in between (including Episcopal and Catholic). One interesting thing, now that I think about it, and in answer to your speculation that I wasn't a genuine Christian, is that I had a lot of prophecies said over me during my Pentecostal/Charismatic days. Now, if I wasn't a real Christian and those prophesying over me were actually speaking the words of God, then why didn't God tell me I was fake? That never happened. Instead I got stupid prophecies about my future and junk like that. None of it came true. None of the prophecies over my parents came true either. My mum still utters prophecies every so often, which all fail. My dad has gotten a bit cynical over the years though. Someone recently had a prophecy for him, which my mum got excited about, but my dad just brushed it off afterwards and said he doesn't really believe all that stuff anymore. I think he's finally floating down from the Charismatic clouds.

When I started having doubts about the Charismatic/Word of Faith movement I was fortunate enough to stumble across a good book called "Post-charismatic". I was still a Christian around the time I read it, but was severely disillusioned with the Charismatic/Word of Faith movement.

Christians are far too quick to judge those who were once Christians but "left the fold". They see it as impossible why someone could go from believing to not believing. I would speculate that most "hardcore" atheists (or anti-theists if you prefer) alive today in Western countries were once hardcore theists/Christians. A lot of them give up their faith because of the behaviour of other Christians, or their disillusionment with their faith. I'm a combination of the two. I was disillusioned with both the church/Christian behaviour and fed up of a faith that seemed so full of promise yet accomplished nothing.

Anyway, I've rambled on a bit, more than I intended. I really just wanted to address those who have the belief that those who abandon the Christian faith weren't Christians in the first place. It is possible to be a real Christian and then become an atheist. I read stories on it all the time. There's even a forum on the internet dedicated to ex-Christians and the stories are usually all the same. I'm not sure why some Christians believe that ex-Christians were never Christians in the first place - it must touch a nerve I guess, perhaps because they struggle with doubts of their own and fear that if they acknowledge those doubts they might fall away.

 

[JGG]

A true Christian will love an atheist and "feel them out" whether they are possibly responsive to the Gospel of Salvation. A true Christian will approach them in Peace. Our Love for them would cause us to be genuinely and actively concerned for their very lives.
If they aren't interested, then move on until finding someone within whom the Son of Peace has plans for

Ah yes. Door-to-door salesman love. Talk them up, get to know them, pretend to be their friend, make your sales pitch. If they buy it, great. If not, abandon them, and move on to the next patsy.

 

[Spiritlight]

@ grumpy old man

Close your eyes and ignore everyone else if you want to find God. I have also found finding god can be sometimes hindered by listening to too many opinions of others. I cant look to god if I have my eyes on the things my fellow man is doing. The best I have and do ever find God is in solitude in the quiet while ignoring everything else.

the othewr stuff you said is right its in the parable of the sower.

 

[hikersong]

Grumpy's experience a couple of post's above (you don't mind me taking liberties with your username do you Old Man?) is very similar to mine.

I would add that I personally don't think that because I have come to a position of faithlessness that everyone else should. But like Grumpy I would appreciate recognition of my own story. I happen to believe that is what we all want. And I think if you scratch our skin, remarkably, we all bleed the same colour blood.

It's true. I'm a fully accredited member of Wishy Washy Humans Inc. I have a dream. I believe in breaking down walls. I actually think that born-again christians, committed muslims and atheists can live side by side in peace and harmony. But, watch out for my kung fu if you ever try building a wall to keep me out. Grrrrrrrr!

 

[Tariki]

Hi Tariki, I understand what you are saying and the truth depends on the prime factor that the "true Christian" who shook the dust off his feet was in fact not a true "Christian". In other words they are Nicolaitans and rather than being disciples of Christ they are disciples of their own ego. If this is the case then I want to share a verse that Jesus said that supports what you are saying:

Notice that the vineyard will be given to a nation "Bearing the fruits of God" and "Being a stone rejected by the builders". This would seem to be everyone that such a "true Christian" had rejected. Don't confuse what I'm saying to mean that every non-Christian bears the fruit of God's kingdom, but rather that one can bear the fruits of a Christian lifestyle even without being accustomed to Christian tradition. Does this help to stimulate your thoughts?

Without wishing to sound condescending, such thoughts "stimulated" me many years ago.

 

[Tobias]

... I spoke in tongues, I prophesied, I got "lost in the Spirit", etc. Yet because I didn't hear voices I must not have been a Christian. ...

Just curious. Surly when you were prophesying you believed at the time that you were hearing from God, right? What other voices were you not hearing, that made you feel like you weren't a Christian? And what has changed your mind, that you now attribute the prophetic inspiration you once felt to something natural, rather than to God?

I hope I'm not prying into something you don't care to go any deeper into. I've already mentioned my theories, so I promise not to beat you over the head with any more of my opinions or judgement if you do care to clear this up. But it just sounds like a glaring inconsistency in your story, that you would prophesy but felt couldn't hear from God.

 

[hikersong]

Spiritlight. Sorry, I got distracted by other stuff and never responded to this.

let me show you something

John 8

.... “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”....

I wasn't condemning you guys.

I appreciate that passage of the bible (it's one of my favourites), and I appreciate your sentiment. I'll ignore the bit about "sinning" no more in regard to my atheism.

It's not something I have a choice about.

Matthew

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I appreciate a religion that takes this as it's starting point. Especially if it see's it's God denying, atheist as it's neighbour. If you'd like to know how I'd like to be loved...it is for my story to be acknowledged and accepted for what it is. Simply that.

The first time I accepted Jesus it was awesome. There was a void in me and an emptiness and loneliness that got filled up.

It was like being filled to bursting with love joy and happiness that makes you love everyone you cant help it.

It is an amazing experience. I came from an atheist family.

I used to have an empty loneliness. An empty void.

Its hard to explain it but there is this thing there external to ourselves..

Something really good changed my life thats why i shared it.

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Tariki]

lol. Will never happen if involving, as I said, a "true Christian". It has nothing to do with how a person considers "themselves".
Christ only spreads the Gospel through the preaching of His Body of true believers. That is why He sends Christians out into the world as sheep amongst the wolves.

Merlinius, you seem to be missing the main point I was seeking to make.

Perhaps it would be best to quote a few words of Thomas Merton.........

If I insist on giving you my truth, and never stop to receive your truth in return, then there can be no truth between us. Christ is present "where two or three are gathered in my name." But to be gathered in the name of Christ is to be gathered in the name of the Word made flesh, of God made man. It is therefore to be gathered in the faith that God has become man and can be seen in man, that he can speak in man and that he can enlighten and inspre love in and through any man I meet. It is true that the visible Church alone has the official mission to sanctify all nations, but no man knows that the stranger he meets coming out of the forest in a new country is not already an invisible member of Christ and perhaps one who has some providential or prophetic message to utter.

It is just not the case of us and them, however "true" we consider "us" to be.

(At least, such is how a true Pure Lander sees it........)

 

[JGG]

Wanting to get to the bottom of this matter and since the other thread got locked for being in the wrong forum, let me address it in the open. JGG, what can be done about it? You are wrong, it is not apathy, it is hopelessness. Only the Holy Spirit can enlighten a person and so long as we are proud of ourselves it is going to be impossible to change. These people are proud to be the way they are. You are proud to be the way you are. It seems to me that you are the one who is discontent with the darkness, not me. I understand that the darkness is permitted by God because it has a purpose in His grand plan of salvation. If you want change for the better then you only need to seek the light in your own life and quit worrying about what others think. We are only fools, the wiser we think we are the more foolish we appear.

You're aware that these people have publically suggested killing atheists, yes? What these people think, and are taught about me, is very important.

I shouldn't have to be a closet atheist, nor should I have to worry about being physically assaulted while going about my business, simply because I don't believe in God. Nor should I be looked down upon as a human being because I don't believe.

But that's the world I live in. There's no reason that I should be content with that.

 

[Spiritlight]

Spiritlight. Sorry, I got distracted by other stuff and never responded to this.



I appreciate that passage of the bible (it's one of my favourites), and I appreciate your sentiment. I'll ignore the bit about "sinning" no more in regard to my atheism.

It's not something I have a choice about.



I appreciate a religion that takes this as it's starting point. Especially if it see's it's God denying, atheist as it's neighbour. If you'd like to know how I'd like to be loved...it is for my story to be acknowledged and accepted for what it is. Simply that.




Thanks for sharing your story.

All good I felt an irresistible urge to write that in. what i experience as christianity is nothing like these forums. We just hang out with anyone and accept anyone into fellowship with us.

Sadly in some ways these forums distort to some degree the way people behave off the computer. Most people are very accepting and cool with stuff and probably nowhere near as judgemental as sometimes is made out here.

sometimes I think these threads amplify problems a little in the way we think other people perceive us.

 

[Tobias]

You're aware that these people have publically suggested killing atheists, yes? What these people think, and are taught about me, is very important.

I shouldn't have to be a closet atheist, nor should I have to worry about being physically assaulted while going about my business, simply because I don't believe in God. Nor should I be looked down upon as a human being because I don't believe.

But that's the world I live in. There's no reason that I should be content with that.

Hear hear!!!

Well said!

 

[hikersong]

Sadly in some ways these forums distort to some degree the way people behave off the computer. Most people are very accepting and cool with stuff and probably nowhere near as judgemental as sometimes is made out here.

I think it makes a difference the fact that we can't see each other. And the difference in personalities. Some people are more inclined to soften the words they say. Others are more intent on the factual content of the words.

And sometimes the protected nature of internet communication means that people are bolder, more direct, and sometimes plain ruder than they would otherwise be. That's probably been true of myself at times. I'm actually thinking of starting an OT thread on a topic related to this.

 

[Spiritlight]

I think it makes a difference the fact that we can't see each other. And the difference in personalities. Some people are more inclined to soften the words they say. Others are more intent on the factual content of the words.

And sometimes the protected nature of internet communication means that people are bolder, more direct, and sometimes plain ruder than they would otherwise be. That's probably been true of myself at times. I'm actually thinking of starting an OT thread on a topic related to this.

you just gave me an idea..watch a weird thread begin lol.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Just curious. Surly when you were prophesying you believed at the time that you were hearing from God, right? What other voices were you not hearing, that made you feel like you weren't a Christian? And what has changed your mind, that you now attribute the prophetic inspiration you once felt to something natural, rather than to God?

I was answering Antz' implied criticism that I wasn't a Christian because I couldn't, or didn't believe, I was hearing the voice of God. Yes, when I prophesied, during my Charismania years, I did believe it was from God. I got quite involved in the Charismatic movement. I sought the "gifts of the Spirit". One thing that always bothered me during those years though, was the Christians who would say "God spoke to me today...", or "I heard from the Lord...", or "The Lord said to me..." For a long time I searched for this voice of God they were hearing, and never found it. All I heard were my own thoughts. Antz would probably say, again, that this was because I wasn't a real Christian. Maybe... I don't know. I believe I was a genuine Christian though. I don't know how much more Christian I could have been - I read my Bible more than most Christians (who, if they're honest, don't bother, and many even confess that it's a struggle to pick up their Bible). I prayed every day, several times a day, sometimes in tongues. I struggled against my natural desires and tried to resist my temptations. If the only requirement of salvation and being a Christian is, as Paul says, to believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead and to confess him as Lord, then I surely met that. But... I just never heard anything I could attribute or identify as being God's voice. The way some Christians spoke, it was as if they were having conversations with God all day. I have to confess that, at the time, I was jealous of this and believed I was somehow a dysfunctional Christian, or immature, or too carnal, or something.

Why do I now believe this is all just emotionalism? Well, as I explained, I became weary of the Charismania and Word of Faith movement. The Christians involved in it, in the churches I went to, were simply not nice people. They were gossipy, bitter, and incredibly ambitious people who were extremely two faced. Now, not all of them were like this, as I've said in another thread - there were some genuinely "good apples" amongst all the bad ones. However, I eventually stopped going to church because I just didn't like being around these people, and so did my parents. I still listened to sermons and bought teaching tapes online though.

It was when I read that book - Post-Charismatic - that I really started to notice how shallow the whole Charismatic/Word of Faith movement was. Prophecies never came true, and were always of the grandiose type ("Thus saith the Lord, I am calling you out, I have separated you... blah blah blah"). I've had prophecies that I would meet beautiful women and get married, have my own ministry, etc. It's all bull. Sorry, but it is. I'm single and work a desk job. I gave up believing in those prophecies once I read Post-Charismatic. That book really did change things for me. It's a Christian book, and it's ultimate goal is to encourage Christians disillusioned with the Charismatic movement to keep seeking God in other ways, but it ended up making me question everything about my faith, not just the Spirit-filled stuff. I began to realise that no Christian has it nailed down; no one has the answers, even though they all claimed to share the same Spirit. If Christians all share the same Spirit of Christ, why is there no unity among the Protestant denominations?

I read that book 3 years ago and since then I slowly embraced agnosticism (after reading some of Bart Erhman's books) and, eventually I summoned up enough courage to read about evolution and other science books (and watching Prof. Brian Cox's excellent "Wonders of the Universe" series). That's basically how I became an atheist.

 

[hikersong]

I read that book 3 years ago and since then I slowly embraced agnosticism (after reading some of Bart Erhman's books) and, eventually I summoned up enough courage to read about evolution and other science books (and watching Prof. Brian Cox's excellent "Wonders of the Universe" series). That's basically how I became an atheist.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, accepting the theory of evolution does not go hand in hand with being in atheist. Although it does inevitably lead to a reconsideration of exactly how God may or may not be involved with our universe. Which is probably why it's acceptance is so un-necessarily resisted in some quarters.

 

[razeontherock]

You're aware that these people have publically suggested killing atheists, yes? What these people think, and are taught about me, is very important.

I shouldn't have to be a closet atheist, nor should I have to worry about being physically assaulted while going about my business, simply because I don't believe in God. Nor should I be looked down upon as a human being because I don't believe.

But that's the world I live in. There's no reason that I should be content with that.

Agreed!

 

[HeathenWarrior]

You may defend your version of the truth all as you will. But do not be surprised if I defend mine with utmost ferocity. So maybe it is better not to attack anyone's beliefs at all.

 

[razeontherock]

Ok, asking because I'm genuinely curious, with some concern. Not because I know anything about things I wasn't there to experience:

Yes, when I prophesied, during my Charismania years, I did believe it was from God.

For a long time I searched for this voice of God they were hearing, and never found it. All I heard were my own thoughts.

I prayed every day, several times a day, sometimes in tongues. I struggled against my natural desires and tried to resist my temptations. If the only requirement of salvation and being a Christian is, as Paul says, to believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead and to confess him as Lord, then I surely met that. But... I just I have to confess that, at the time, I was jealous of this and believed I was somehow a dysfunctional Christian, or immature, or too carnal, or something.

Is it possible you never met G-d? Is it possible you only contacted your own thoughts?

And you still link moving away from "charismania" to learning about Ev, which i still say is irrational. The two are unrelated. Actually, the 3 are unrelated; it's possible to be Christian, or not, charismatic, or not, and affirm in Ev, or not. No doubt with many levels of each, all independent of one another.

 

[Tobias]

I do not believe that God made people on an assembly line, and that each person's calling is the same as the next. In fact, I'm willing to accept that some people simply are not called to follow God. Many are probably free to do so as a congregation, but those God speaks to individually are few and far between. At least, those He speaks with on a daily bases. Many Evangelicals believe that God guides them through their daily reading of scripture, which is a related but separate phenomenon. I think all Christians would do well to recognize which method God uses to commune with them (if any), and pursue it!

There are plenty of things to be disillusioned with in the Charismatic movement. Prophecy is a big one. We interpret the Bible to say that all prophecy must come true no matter what if it is from God, but so few of the modern day prophecies meet this requirement. You can't be a Charismatic for long before you hear a false prophecy. This is not right!

Faith is necessary to maintain a relationship with God. I hear His voice, and move in certain gifts of the Spirit. I recognize two separate anointings that make these possible. Many forsake the anointing of grace that maintains our relationship with God, in favor of the anointing that produces the workings of the Holy Spirit. But if we don't keep up our primary calling, which is to have a relationship with God, then the gifts of the Spirit working through our lives are rather meaningless.

Many times after being used by the Spirit and the anointing has gone away, I am left to doubt the validity of the experience. I can even doubt the reality of God, or His divinity. Similar I suppose to how Elijah ran off to that cave feeling sorry for himself after calling down fire from heaven to prove to the entire nation that the Lord is God. I'm not sure why this is, or if it is similar in any way to anybody's reasons for disbelieving in God, but it is something I experience quite regularly after being used.