Defending the truth of Jesus

[Grumpy Old Man]

Depends of course how you define a "real" Christian. If it is anyone who puts their hand up or who falls in line, then yes I would agree with you. If, however, it is only those who Jesus has chosen, then I think you might understand why Jesus said this:

See, there are many many people who know the bible inside out but they don't believe. To them there is no life in the words on the page. They do not have the Spirit of God living in their heart. Yet, they have all manner of knowledge that the bible can convey. Surely you can see that human efforts aren't qualifiers for eternal life? Only by this verse can you appease the Lord and have the Word come to life within you. Only by this verse:

According to these verses, I was a real Christian;

Romans 10:8-10

English Standard Version (ESV)



8But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

When I was a Christian, I believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead and I confessed, daily, Jesus as Lord. What other requirement for salvation, being a Christian, did I miss? It wasn't the talking in tongues, or the vain prophesies that made me believe I was a Christian. It was the fact that I believed Jesus died and rose again and I believed that he was the Lord of Creation, that makes me believe I was a genuine Christian.

I don't really think it's worth debating this issue any more, unless you can come up with some verses that say believing in Jesus and the resurrection is NOT enough for salvation (in which case they would contradict Paul's letter to the Romans and we can have some fun with Bible contradictions then).

 

[Tobias]

Then I guess I insulted him back.

Antz refuses to believe that I genuine in my Christianity. I suspect he's one of those "once saved, always saved" (no one walks away) types. Trying to convince these types that it is possible to be a Christian and walk away is an uphill struggle. And given the replies he keeps giving me, he still refuses to believe that I once was a genuine Christian.

Oh. Ok, fair enough. Carry on!

 

[hikersong]

Everything you said here is evidence of brainwashing.

Right. Using his mind to come to different conclusions from you is evidence of brainwashing.

Of all the nonsense I've read regarding people who have de-converted this takes the biscuit.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Here, twice you have said you never knew God, and twice you claimed to have been Christian. Who gave you the right to call yourself Christian? Is it just a title you presumed to own since you followed the doctrines you had been taught?

I answered that with those verses from Romans 10:8-10. The right to call myself a Christian came from the Apostle Paul.

I can only speak of my own experience because I can't get into your head. But for me when I failed to be Christian and I fell away from the faith, it was due to a disagreement I had with Jesus about lust, masturbation and homosexual thoughts. Guess who ended up repenting.

I appreciate your honesty. We're not allowed to promote homosexuality on these forums, but as an atheist, I have no problem with it any more. When I was a Christian, of course, I believed such things were sin. Now, I believe what two consenting adults (or even one consenting adult ) does in their own bedroom is up to them. Sex, like all things, can be used for good, or abused. I just don't care any more whether consenting adults are opposite genders, or the same. And God, if he exists, clearly doesn't care about the rampant homosexuality in the animal kingdom, so why should I?

Tell me something, was there a time during your experience with Christianity that you had that veil removed? Or was everything you learned adopted from your peers in the same way a parrot learns to "speak"?

I think you're interpreting these verses to mean we should all have had some kind of Damascus moment. My conversion to Christianity wasn't like that. I was 9 or 10 when I became a Christian. It just made sense at the time and the notion that Jesus loved me appealed to me. In my teens I struggled a bit but I held on to my faith. When I was 17 I was introduced to the Charismatic elements of Christianity. From about then until I was 23 or 24 I went to Charismatic churches and then stopped going to church altogether.

You keep saying "peers" but I never actually made friends in churches. I was always an outsider, primarily because the people at the churches I went to were all older than me, or much younger than me. So I never really had close friendships, peers as you put it, in church. I chatted to people and made "acquaintances", but I was always a bit of billy-no-mates at church.

So I didn't really have peers, apart from my family. I've always been a bit of a loner and I don't mind that one bit. I've never liked having too many friends. Too many dramas and crises. I just want a quiet, peaceful life.

 

[oi_antz]

According to these verses, I was a real Christian;



When I was a Christian, I believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead and I confessed, daily, Jesus as Lord. What other requirement for salvation, being a Christian, did I miss? It wasn't the talking in tongues, or the vain prophesies that made me believe I was a Christian. It was the fact that I believed Jesus died and rose again and I believed that he was the Lord of Creation, that makes me believe I was a genuine Christian.

I don't really think it's worth debating this issue any more, unless you can come up with some verses that say believing in Jesus and the resurrection is NOT enough for salvation (in which case they would contradict Paul's letter to the Romans and we can have some fun with Bible contradictions then).

No it is not worth debating this issue any more, but it is worth informing you of the condition of your faith. That verse says you will be saved, which is great news! So, according to the bible, and by confession of your own mouth, you have entered a contract with the Lord whereby you belong to Him. He is the master of freedom mind you, so be diligent with your decisions.

Tell me then, when you read the following verse, does it say that those who are saved are not punished for their sin?

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

And having that knowledge, does this verse not condemn you for what you have said?

“So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[oi_antz]

Right. Using his mind to come to different conclusions from you is evidence of brainwashing.

Of all the nonsense I've read regarding people who have de-converted this takes the biscuit.

Come on hs, did you even read what he said?

 

[hikersong]

Come on hs, did you even read what he said?

Yes I did. I don't agree with every jot and tittle. There is absolutely no evidence that he's been brainwashed though. So why say it?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Come on hs, did you even read what he said?

I'm still not sure how you believe I could have brainwashed myself. Don't you ever read books? By your reasoning, if I read a science book, I'm brainwashing myself, but if I read a Christian book I'm not?

I know I'm not brainwashed simply because I'm sceptical. If I was brainwashed, I would have a deep, ingrained knowledge that there was no God. As an atheist, I merely believe there is no God. I don't actually have proof there is no God, and Christians have never proven there is one. So until there is proof enough for me that God exists, whether the Bible God or some other one, I will continue being sceptical. This is NOT being brainwashed. It's simply keeping an eye on my b.s. detector and not believing everything everyone tells me.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Hi BI, I'm enjoying your input, I'd like to see you share more of your understanding of being led by the Spirit! Would you mind reducing the amount of hate you express toward Christianity? We've just established that Christianity itself is not what people are offended by, but rather some people's presentation of it. It would be nice to see you giving due respect to the inheritance of our Lord, and tact in your rebuke of the teachings you deplore. An old Christian friend of mine once told me I need to use "less cutting" words, I think you would benefit from the same advice. You'd get more sympathy from your audience.

I wasn't aware that i was being particularly hateful about Christianity in this thread. If I was, I apologize. I was just attempting to express that I would not want to be one (a Christian).

As for the Holy Spirit, I believe that is just another expression to refer to God the father. I'm not a trinitarian or duelist. I believe in ONE God.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Tell me then, when you read the following verse, does it say that those who are saved are not punished for their sin?

And having that knowledge, does this verse not condemn you for what you have said?

I don't believe the Bible is the truth, so quoting verses to me is somewhat pointless. I mostly read the Bible as literature these days, mainly out of a sense of nostalgia from my days as a Christian. But I do not see the Bible as divinely inspired. So no, I don't think those verses condemn me because they're not true; they're just the writings of some very religious, possibly very sincere, but sadly deluded, people.

 

[Merlinius]

I don't believe the Bible is the truth, so quoting verses to me is somewhat pointless. I mostly read the Bible as literature these days, mainly out of a sense of nostalgia from my days as a Christian. But I do not see the Bible as divinely inspired. So no, I don't think those verses condemn me because they're not true; they're just the writings of some very religious, possibly very sincere, but sadly deluded, people.

So sad for you. No wonder grumpy

 

[TDickensheets]

Jesus said "Love your enemies." - Matt 5:43-48

 

[TDickensheets]

Matt 6:5-15; Luke 11:2-4

[BIBLE]Matt 6:14-15 "If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in heaven wil also forgive you. But if you don't forgive others, then your Father will not forgive the wrongs you have done." [/BIBLE]

 

[oi_antz]

I'm still not sure how you believe I could have brainwashed myself. Don't you ever read books? By your reasoning, if I read a science book, I'm brainwashing myself, but if I read a Christian book I'm not?

I know I'm not brainwashed simply because I'm sceptical. If I was brainwashed, I would have a deep, ingrained knowledge that there was no God. As an atheist, I merely believe there is no God. I don't actually have proof there is no God, and Christians have never proven there is one. So until there is proof enough for me that God exists, whether the Bible God or some other one, I will continue being sceptical. This is NOT being brainwashed. It's simply keeping an eye on my b.s. detector and not believing everything everyone tells me.

Well I have a bs detector too and when you say that the bible portrays God as being schizophrenic, it is obvious that you have believed something wrong.

 

[oi_antz]

Jesus said "Love your enemies." - Matt 5:43-48

Thank you TDickensheets, nice to meet you. Can you define what you mean by 'enemy'? Do Christians have enemies?

 

[razeontherock]

Tell me then, when you read the following verse, does it say that those who are saved are not punished for their sin?

And having that knowledge, does this verse not condemn you for what you have said?

Rev 20:11 does not Judge believers! You will see we get a separate Judgment. (Note "the dead," vs those who's names are written in the Lamb's book of Life)

 

[razeontherock]

As for the Holy Spirit, I believe that is just another expression to refer to God the father. I'm not a trinitarian or duelist. I believe in ONE God.

True statement. G-d the Father, dwelling IN us, is what the NT term Holy Spirit refers to. This was not available to OT Jews, not even the King, Prophet or Priest. IF you experience this today, it is solely due to Jesus' finished work.