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Is Orthodoxy the quickest path to atheism?

Dorothea

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This is true for me as well. Ultimately it was the witness of the Saints that drew me in and they also help me to stay put. When I feel doubts, I read a book or story of one of the Saints and it helps renew and strengthen my faith.
Same for me. It's very comforting to know I'm not alone, that I'm surrounded not only by God and the angels, but of all the Saints who pray for me and with me. Reading their lives does strength my faith as well. I can relate to them as a struggling human being, and sometimes when I'm feeling really down or separated from His Grace, knowing the Saints are there with me makes all the difference in the world to me.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I will say that with Orthodoxy (and in Roman Catholicism), it is acknowledged there are points at which you might not feel very spiritual or very close to God. There are times when a believer is filled with doubt. And that is considered the normal and a sign of maturing faith. When I was a Protestant and not feeling full of faith or in despair, it was called "not doing well spiritually." During times of spiritual dryness, which can last for decades (see Mother Theresa's example) we are encouraged to continue with the prayers, the Mysteries and with good works. This is a type mature faith: walking the path when you cannot see and cannot feel the presence of God.

"He removed grace from you so that you may become wise. But it will come again. It does not abandon you. This is a law of God. But it will leave again. Yet once more it will come. As long as you don't stop seeking it, it will keep coming and going until it renders you perfect." --Elder Joseph the Hesychast

M.

Sis Monica,

On what it is that you noted, as it concerns the dynamic of not doing well spiritually (As many Protestants have noted), I wanted to say that there are many Protestants who thankfully understand the concept you brought up...concerning the fact that spirituality is not determined by one's feelings, but by faith demonstrated via actions. Doing what's right tilll it feels right--and even when it doesn't feel right, doing it anyway because its something one's called to get done.

Others like C.S Lewis noted similar dynamics, though he well understood the concept of Theosis as Orthodoxy does...and that just because one doesn't feel like they're growing doesn't mean that they are not necessarily in a growth process (similar to the ways kids go through puberty and may not even be aware at times of how it is that their body is changing since they're in such sync with it that it can go unoticed for awhile). As the author of "Mere Christianity" (one of the best apolegetics against atheism, IMHO) and who was one of the most influential, if not the most influential, Anglican writers of the twentieth century, it was always wild to see some of the things he had to say on why others should believe in the Lord. I was always glad to see how he was also one who was much loved by many Orthodox Christians who often raise the question, "Was C.S. Lewis an anonymous Orthodox?" , seeing that Lewis's Atonement Theology and Soteriology, as well as his understandings of Heaven and Hell, are very similar to that of the Orthodox and stand opposed to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant understandings of these matters...with many deeming him as an "Anonymous Orthodox" :D


For more info:


Lewis is someone whose views I have greatly appreciated, especially as it concerns growth, since he at one point rejected Christianity and became an avowed atheist. And at times, to my knowledge, struggled when coming back to the Lord---but aided others in how to see the Lord in it all. What he noted on how moods change is very big, IMHO. As he said best:
Now Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods. For moods will change, whatever your view your reason takes. I know that by experience. Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable. This rebellion of your moods against your real self is going to come anyway. That is why Faith is such a necessary virtue: unless you teach your moods ‘where they get off’, you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist, but just a creature dithering to and fro, with its beliefs really dependent on the weather and the state of its digestion. Consequently one must train the habit of Faith.

The first step is to recognize the fact that your moods change. The next is to make sure that, if you have once accepted Christianity, then some of its main doctrines shall be deliberately held before your mind for some time every day. That is why daily prayers and religious readings and churchgoing are necessary parts of the Christian life. We have to be continually reminded of what we believe. Neither this belief nor any other will automatically remain alive in the mind. It must be fed. And as a matter of fact, if you examined a hundred people who had lost their faith in Christianity, I wonder how many of them would turn out to have been reasoned out of it by honest argument? Do not most people simply drift away?
C.S. Lewis – Mere Christianity

As Lewis said best, "If you examined a hundred people who had lost their faith in Christianity, I wonder how many of them would turn out to have been reasoned out of it by honest argument? Do not most people simply drift away?"

C.S. Lewis said that in England during the 1940s....and how applicable it is for today. For how many people don't actively reject their faith (on intellectual grounds or others), but just gradually wander off? They get distracted. Many times, they stop nurturing their faith through regular worship, much less study. Moreover, they may start mixing in bits and pieces (or large chunks) of other "spiritualities" they've run across, or they may just not think much about spiritual matters at all. ..and they may think of themselves as Christians for a while, but somewhere along the line, they stopped.

That's how it happens oftentimes. ...and as Lewis said, "That is why daily prayers and religious readings and churchgoing are necessary parts of the Christian life"...and as Lewis said best, "We have to be continually reminded of what we believe. Neither this [Christian] belief nor any other will automatically remain alive in the mind. It must be fed."

I'm glad for others who've pointed out the same. One of the authors I grew up with, known as Alan Hirsh, is another one who has done a good job illustrating the point of Theosis and how many often turn away from the Lord because they fail to realize the concept of growth (as he said here in his book "UnTamed" ). Of course, I disagree with Brother Hirsh on specific points at times, as it concerns the view (from what I've read) that traditional/institutional forms of the Church that were birthed in Christendom are things which are to be moved from. For Allan Hirsch relies on the restorationist meta-narrative that the New Testament church was pure in all things but at one point in history, identified by him as the conversion of Constantine/that era, everything went wrong, and has continued wrong.. That meta-narrative is something I cannot go with fully, even though I do feel there were many things in early Christendom that were not necessarily the ultimate in what the Lord desired ---and one can go either here , here , here or here in his book entitled "The Forgotten Ways" for more on his view/where it has been critiqued---but on many other things, I feel where he has come from 100%.



Something Brother Alan noted about atheism that has struck me heavily is how many turn to it in the claim that they don't find Christianity to be reasonable or "rational"--and yet, if you do enough homework, one will find that what really occurred was that many really didn't find themselves reasonable/rational....for they knew what it was that they were to do, yet couldn't handle seeing the ways that they failed at it. Consequently, what occurred was cognitative dissonance, where they'd disconnected from what was "reality" for them and chose to see the world different. An example Brother Hirsh gave was with a young adult who used to be involved in church and later claimed to the pastor how he was struggling with believing in the concept of God/Theism..and finding more of the arguments against the claims of CHristianity or scripture to be difficult to ignore. In response, the pastor asked "Are you sleeping with your girlfriend?"--to which the young adult was shocked to hear...but replied "Yes." His sin became something so difficult to bear/avoid that it literally caused him to subconsiciously begin to erase the thought of God from his mind---and on the surface, he may've felt that he was simply questioning things/trying to rationally explore...but what was really the case was that he had let himself and the Lord down...and no longer wished to face that.

For more on what Alan said in his story, one can go here.

Of course, not all cases of turning to atheism are based on this----as for many, simply finding logical reasons for believing Christianity or searching for consistency in the Church is why others may struggle for a bit...and for others, seeing how other religions compare to the Faith are reasons why they may explore for sometime as they pursue their quest for truth/truly seeing if there is one way to God.

The reality of science, naturalistic observation and trying to see how that renconciles with faith in the Lord is another reason others struggle.....and for some, growing up in a form of CHristianity where things are highly materialistic/dualistic and wanting to have "rational" answers for all things is part of why they may walk away...only to return when realizing that Christianity was never meant to take away mystery or give answers to ALL aspects of life.

There's also the reality of others who walked away due to feeling that people were simply going through the motions and not truly living out what they claimed to believe. Although some may disagree, this is something that seems to occur even with Orthodoxy in light of how many have walked away from it just as others have from differing camps within Christendom...and in light of how many within Orthodoxy have noted over the years the need for more aggressive evangelism/engagement amongst those who are not saved. Some of this was discussed before elsewhere with one of my brothers who was Coptic Orthodox when we were discussing the "Cradle vs Convert" people ( #46 )




Again, the reasons for others turning toward atheism are many---but for alot of people, not finding themselves believable when it comes to doing what they believe God wants is one of the reasons why they choose not to believe in Him anymore...

Some of that can, of course, go alongside Psalm 14 which makes clear that many turn away simply due to pride..
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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As a Westerner, the more educated you [general you] are in a secular sense, the more you've immersed yourself in the hegemony of Enlightenment reductionism (whether you realise it or not). If you swallow this reductionism whole, without examining it for what it is, you tend towards atheism. Atheism is the faith choice of the reductionist.

People who are born Protestant and who are "thinkers" by nature will often (certainly not always) gravitate towards Orthodoxy, because it's the only internally coherent branch of Christianity.

If these "thinkers" keep "thinking", and start mistakenly applying reductionist scientific thinking to metaphysical concerns, they may stray into atheism too. So, if you know a lot of ex-Prot converts who became Orthodox and then atheists, this is my opinion of how it happened.

FWIW, I know faaaaaaaaaar more Prot -> atheist vs. other religion -> atheist. But that may be because I know a LOT of Protestants. Actually, my husband is one who went from evangelical Xianity straight to atheism due to the abuses and illogical nonsense he saw there.

ETA: another FWIW: I was a cradle atheist who turned Christian at age 22, after completing my cultural studies degree and examining all the philosophical arguments against God. After further searching within Xianity, I was received into Orthodoxy age 25. Not all roads lead to atheism.

Can you expand on this
it's the only internally coherent branch of Christianity.
Vis a Vis the Catholic church ?
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I really doubt that there are statistics on this type of thing. I know of people that have lost faith or strayed off the path in both Protestantism and traditional forms of Chrisitianity.

I will say that with Orthodoxy (and in Roman Catholicism), it is acknowledged there are points at which you might not feel very spiritual or very close to God. There are times when a believer is filled with doubt. And that is considered the normal and a sign of maturing faith. When I was a Protestant and not feeling full of faith or in despair, it was called "not doing well spiritually." During times of spiritual dryness, which can last for decades (see Mother Theresa's example) we are encouraged to continue with the prayers, the Mysteries and with good works. This is a type mature faith: walking the path when you cannot see and cannot feel the presence of God.

"He removed grace from you so that you may become wise. But it will come again. It does not abandon you. This is a law of God. But it will leave again. Yet once more it will come. As long as you don't stop seeking it, it will keep coming and going until it renders you perfect." --Elder Joseph the Hesychast

M.

Dark night of the soul.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Real Talk = truth
Thanks in the aid with clarifying slang :). Surprised that not all may be aware of the meaning behind the phrase "real talk"--but everyone and every culture is different :)
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I know someone whose father was killed when the Communists took over. I know at least 2 others who were smuggled out as children. One of these women still has an icon of Christ with a bullet hole in his head which her father smuggled out.

You don't know what you are talking about.


America has seen her share of troubles. Abraham Lincoln who was our president during the civil war once said,
"I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for the day
The war between the states makes most conflicts today look like the boy scouts.

In one battle, the battle of Gettysburg, The Union forces suffered 23,000 casualties, 3,155 killed, 14,500 wounded and over 5000 missing, on the Confederate side, 2500 killed in action, 12,000 wounded and over 5,000 missing.


I don't understand the mindset, that the west has not seen troubles. Talk to the Vietnam Vets that I know, or to my Dad who served in Korea. World war I and II, where the US led Europe to the promised land. How about the boys in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

The west has always bore the brunt of hardships. It is probably why the US clings to its Guns and religion (Dig against Obama) But I think out of this, many have grown in faith and perseverance.

As far as secular Humanism, Nihilism or Existentialism, the older I get, the more immature and groping these ideas become. When confronted by them, most adherents of these belief systems seem angry and mad at the God they don't profess to believe in. It seems just below the surface lies a little boy or girl hurting and seeking the love they never received in the world.
 
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NyssaTheHobbit

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*hugs nyssa*

I'm so sorry. I've been there recently, it's not fun. Weirdly, this latest drama has got me back into prayer, strange how that happens. I'll pray for you tonight, is nyssa or Gregoria your christian name?

I was chrismated with the name Gregoriana. Nyssa is my Net name. :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I suppose it was timely that you quoted me, because I really needed to read my own words today. I am in a very tough place right now.

Praying that wherever you are at, you'd make it to where you need to be. As I heard another say once, "If you're going through Hell, don't stop..." :)
 
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inconsequential

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It may just be my personal experience but the spiritual warfare I experienced prior to becoming Orthodox NEVER approached the level of intensity or brutality that it does now. There have been times, quite recently, that the only thing which kept me from leaving the Church was plain old aspie resistance to change.

I wonder how many have fallen because of the constant, grinding assaults the enemy maintains against us.
 
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I can relate to and appreciate this post greatly as I feel the same way; as I have gotten closer to Orthodoxy and have been attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy off and on for months and months now, reading a great deal of Orthodox books and literature, talking with Orthodox Christians and clergy, I have felt more assaults by the evil one than ever...he seems to be chomping at the bit to keep me from going Orthodox. And that tells me that perhaps the Eastern Orthodox way is the way for me....

It may just be my personal experience but the spiritual warfare I experienced prior to becoming Orthodox NEVER approached the level of intensity or brutality that it does now. There have been times, quite recently, that the only thing which kept me from leaving the Church was plain old aspie resistance to change.

I wonder how many have fallen because of the constant, grinding assaults the enemy maintains against us.
 
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I don't think it's a coincidence that we've all 3 felt this way....

it's not tough at all attending a DL at the Serbian Orthodox parish I'm attending...but when Father mentions me, my wife, and 3 little children, getting chrismated in the next couple of months if we want, I start getting all flustered and think:

I have to drive 55 minutes to get to this Orthodox parish when there is a Catholic and Anglican parish just 8 minutes from home

This Divine Liturgy is long, exhausting, my feet are tired, and sometimes they drag on for as much as 2 hours or more!

Boy, do I want to take communion with that spoon? All those people are having the same spoon stuck in their mouth?

Confession is face-to-face only! I have some sins I'd rather tell Father anonymously Catholic style!

And another fifty concerns kick in....I'm really up and down about conversion. And it feels like the evil one is whispering into my ear plenty....

Ever since I became interested in Orthodoxy in 2008 I must say the struggles thrown my way by the enemy have gotten a lot worse then they were before my interest.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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alot of parishes just drop the communion in your mouth from the spoon, although some close their mouth around it.

Confession at my parish the priest stands next to you, puts his stowel over your head, while you kneel in front of a cross. So its not like you're looking him in the face while you're confessing, which helps me confess more freely it seems.
 
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Thanks, Ortho. It's been a long and exhausting experience thinking about Orthodoxy. One day I feel 100% sure I'm in, then the next day I have doubts and I'm shaky. But overall what I know now from history, what I have internalized theologically, and how I feel overall, I can't fathom going back to Catholicism. It was my religion for almost 30 years. I have spent several as an Anglican and find that untenable. Orthodoxy makes so much sense in terms of polity and ecclesiology in light of history, scriptures, and tradition. Likewise, I went back and forth between Catholicism and Anglicanism for years and years like a teeter-totter. I felt there was truth in both of them and couldn't settle in. I loved the Sacraments, Marian devotion, sacramentals, etc. about Catholicism, but I loved the papal-free and more fellowship and pastoral care of Anglicanism.

yet Anglicanism has a heap of errors, and Rome has papal infalliblity, the treasury of merit, purgatory, a history of using forgeries and the sword and political rangling, and some bizarre dogma.

When I found out about Orthodoxy, I realized it has all the things I've longed for and the Orthodox view on the Atonement and Original Sin is so different from the West that in hindsight I can see now why both Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists and all those groups have haywire theological formulations. They're all built on shaky premises.

The major pain in the tukus for me is the distance. I hate that the nearest Orthodox parish is almost an hour north of here. It's not my community and seems a stretch but the folks there are just great and I feel drawn to Orthodoxy.
alot of parishes just drop the communion in your mouth from the spoon, although some close their mouth around it.

Confession at my parish the priest stands next to you, puts his stowel over your head, while you kneel in front of a cross. So its not like you're looking him in the face while you're confessing, which helps me confess more freely it seems.
 
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E.C.

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The major pain in the tukus for me is the distance. I hate that the nearest Orthodox parish is almost an hour north of here. It's not my community and seems a stretch but the folks there are just great and I feel drawn to Orthodoxy.
If it is any consolation: where I was chrismated, Miami, there were at least five families who drove at least 90 minutes for Liturgy. Three of them were seniors, one was a family of seven (including a grandchild) and the other was a Cuban family which faced absolute ridicule from twenty family members when they became Orthodox.
When my stepmom first moved to Washington state she drove just short of two hours for Liturgy.

That said, there are those who go to Liturgy about once a month just for the reason of distance.
 
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Joshua G.

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If it is any consolation: where I was chrismated, Miami, there were at least five families who drove at least 90 minutes for Liturgy. Three of them were seniors, one was a family of seven (including a grandchild) and the other was a Cuban family which faced absolute ridicule from twenty family members when they became Orthodox.
When my stepmom first moved to Washington state she drove just short of two hours for Liturgy.

That said, there are those who go to Liturgy about once a month just for the reason of distance.

I would second ECs sentiment. Because of the sparcity of Orthodox parishes outside of major metropolitan areas (and sometimes even there!) I would say it is more common than not to have at least one family (if the parish is small, more if it's larger) that is traveling about an hour to get to the Liturgy.

But, this is something to talk to your would-be priest about. There are different struggles that can come up with long drives and I doubt he would be a stranger to working with this situation.

PS: When I first became Orthodox, I traveled 1:05 every week for Liturgy... but as a married dad of two kids, 9 mos and 3.5, I know it's not a very relevant comparison because I was unmarried at the time. lol (life was so easy then... especially before kids came! My wife and I don't understand how in the world we were ever tired before we had kids or what we could have possibly found complicated about life then LOL) I can tell you though that my wife and I would travel 55 min every week for Liturgy and we are certainly not outstanding examples by any means. We used to miss a lot due to laziness or excuses (not that there aren't good excuses for not going.. many times, though, this depends on the particular person or family... what is a good excuse for me may be simply a copout for the next guy). But when my wife got preganant with our first we realized that we had to take this seriously because the choice was no longer only effecting our souls, but the souls of another (and soon two others) who God had placed in our care. Because the Orthodox maintains the ancient tradition of communing infants, there is a real grace they are missing out on when we decide not to take them. Anyway, we hold each other accountable so that we aren't making up excuses and we have only very specified circumstances when we can miss and that happens rarely (although it does happen). I guess my point is simple and very general: where there's a will, there's a way. I don't know what you and your priest will figure out, but you will figure something out that works for your family.

God bless you!

Josh
 
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Barky

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I'll add my two cents here.

I've been orthodox for 2.5 years now. Where I was, my perish felt like home. I rode with my mentor and teacher to church every Sunday (40 minute drive) it was intellectually and spiritually stimulating. I had found my home.

Now I've moved away, and the church I attend is... not home. The priest comes off as caustic and strange dogmatically at times. His homilies are strange to me. The church community is ethnic and while not hostile, certainly not friendly either. I missed church today because I accidentally slept in, but I know better.... My convictions are being tried here. Did I attend services becauase they were stimulating and give me warm fuzzies? Or am I convicted that Christ's church and Liturgy are full of grace in themselves?

I haven't received communion in over 3 months because I need to go to confession. Thinking of confessing to the priest here is disheartening to say the least. I haven't fasted in a long time either. I am in a place where all my close friends are left behind, and my fiance is across the country. I feel like I'm barely holding on. Keep to the fight, try to keep God close, pray, I'm keeping to the faith but weak and emaciated. Faith without works is dead, so perhaps I have fallen away completely.

The devil is on full assault right now. He's trying to make me question all of this. Pray for me. I am weak and need the Lord.
 
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-Kyriaki-

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Lord, have mercy!

You're not alone. There have been plenty of us who've faced down the evil one recently, and felt like just hanging on if that. I've been through absolute hell in the past three months and had everything I thought certain turned upside down, with bonus hospital admissions to boot, and I think I'm finally coming out the other side.

:hug: go to church if you can, go to confession, even if halting - remember you're not confessing to this priest but to Christ. Maybe email your old priest and share where you're at? He could help the transition or give you advice for where you're at.

Confession and Holy Communion will help and are the thing we need most when we feel attacked - and the evil one will do his best to keep us away from the Mysteries forw exactly that reason. Do your cross whenever you feel down, and do your best to go to Church even when it feels hard. God sometimes allows these situations to happen so that we grow closer to Him, even though it seems like craziness at the time. But remember, the wisdom of this world is foolishness...and the Gospel seems like foolishness to this world. But that crazy wisdom is true and more wonderful than the easy life of a non-Orthodox...it will be worth it. And I do not say that as someone who doesn't understand.

May the Theotokos protect and guard you, she's a wonderful protectress and helper of those in sorrow.
 
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