Is Orthodoxy the quickest path to atheism?

[Dorothea]

I can relate to the spiritual struggles. I've been practicing Orthodox since 1997, but the struggles of the mind - the assailing thoughts have gotten more difficult. And like Fr. Meletios Webber had said at a Lenten retreat a few years back, these thoughts are not from us but from what we have taken in throughout the days and most damaging is all of the junk I took in before I was a practicing Orthodox Christian. If I'm able to brush them off while awake and conscious, they assail me in my dreams. And since I have some issues with anxiety and panic attacks, it just compounds the issue...meaning I over analyze and get too worried about the thoughts, and they come back because of memories of them and the struggles I've had. It's embarrassing the thoughts I've had, and to have to go to confession for the same stupid sins over and over again is embarrassing too. I cannot bring myself to say anything explicit about my thoughts to my SF. I just say I've had unclean thoughts. He accepts that and I know God knows what they are. I hope that is ok because it's hard.

Sorry for the babbling. I'm going to COnfession tomorrow and nervous about it even though my SF knows my struggles. Ugh. Lord, have mercy.

Ps: sorry for typos. I'm on my phone.

 

[Dorothea]

Btw, the closest Orthodox church we've attended is 20 or so mins away. The farthest was an hour and a half one way.

 

[Dorothea]

Prayers for you, barky. Lord, have mercy!

 

[Protoevangel]

Prayers, Barky!

 

[fschmidt]

I would like to respond to the original post in this thread, even if I am 2 years late.

You do more studying into history and philosophy as that intellectual attitude demands of you, you start exploring other forms of spirituality, you start looking at the moral concerns of the Church and how they match up with the morals and ethics in the modern world...and Christianity kind of loses its luster.

All I can say is that you must be only studying history and philosophy from a modern perspective and you must not be reading any original historical works. There is truth and there is fashion. Modern culture is fashion while the morality of virtually all old religions are truth. Anyone who studies history by reading original historical works will recognize that we are currently in a decadent declining culture and that only those religions that manage to hold on to their traditions have any real value. Orthodox Christianity is one of those religions.

I grew up as an atheist. I no longer consider myself an atheist because atheists have modern morality which I consider to be evil. I am not a Christian but I go to a Greek Orthodox church every Sunday and I actively participate in the church and contribute to it as I can. I looked at many religions and I found Orthodox Christianity to have the soundest morality of all those that I looked at. The members of the church are very nice to me even knowing that I am not Christian.

One of the critical aspects of Orthodox Christianity is that they value both faith and works. Even if an atheist doesn't share the faith, he can share the works. This is what I do. The works reflect the morality of the church which is sound. This approach doesn't work with Protestantism because they only really value faith. And Catholicism has compromised their traditions with modern fashion which has diluted their morality. I do think that participating in an Orthodox Christian church is an excellent choice for anyone with sound morals even if they aren't Christian.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am not a Christian but I go to a Greek Orthodox church every Sunday and I actively participate in the church and contribute to it as I can. I looked at many religions and I found Orthodox Christianity to have the soundest morality of all those that I looked at. The members of the church are very nice to me even knowing that I am not Christian.

God bless them and you for what you do at that parish. and welcome to TAW!

 

[Theofane]

Is Orthodoxy the quickest path to atheism?

I don't quite understand what you're asking here. I think the loss of faith in God is the quickest path to atheism.

 

[rusmeister]

I would like to respond to the original post in this thread, even if I am 2 years late.



All I can say is that you must be only studying history and philosophy from a modern perspective and you must not be reading any original historical works. There is truth and there is fashion. Modern culture is fashion while the morality of virtually all old religions are truth. Anyone who studies history by reading original historical works will recognize that we are currently in a decadent declining culture and that only those religions that manage to hold on to their traditions have any real value. Orthodox Christianity is one of those religions.

I grew up as an atheist. I no longer consider myself an atheist because atheists have modern morality which I consider to be evil. I am not a Christian but I go to a Greek Orthodox church every Sunday and I actively participate in the church and contribute to it as I can. I looked at many religions and I found Orthodox Christianity to have the soundest morality of all those that I looked at. The members of the church are very nice to me even knowing that I am not Christian.

One of the critical aspects of Orthodox Christianity is that they value both faith and works. Even if an atheist doesn't share the faith, he can share the works. This is what I do. The works reflect the morality of the church which is sound. This approach doesn't work with Protestantism because they only really value faith. And Catholicism has compromised their traditions with modern fashion which has diluted their morality. I do think that participating in an Orthodox Christian church is an excellent choice for anyone with sound morals even if they aren't Christian.

Hey Mr Schmidt, welcome! I second Army Matt - it's awesome that you are involved with a parish, wherever you are on faith!

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

Orthodoxy is hardly the quickest path to atheism.
Take Russia for example. So many years of anti-religious propaganda, persecutions and executions failed to break the Russian People's faith and, up to this day, Russia is one of the most religious countries of Europe!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Orthodoxy is hardly the quickest path to atheism.
Take Russia for example. So many years of anti-religious propaganda, persecutions and executions failed to break the Russian People's faith and, up to this day, Russia is one of the most religious countries of Europe!

I think luke warm people who say they believe in God, but act like the rest of the world is the quickest path to atheism. if you act like the rest of the world that whatever God you would claim to believe in is calling you out of, why even believe in the first place?

 

[fschmidt]

I think luke warm people who say they believe in God, but act like the rest of the world is the quickest path to atheism. if you act like the rest of the world that whatever God you would claim to believe in is calling you out of, why even believe in the first place?

This is the kind of thinking that attracts me to Orthodox Christianity. My priest thinks the same way. I think Anabaptists and Orthodox Jews also deserve credit for thinking this way. I wish more religions did.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is the kind of thinking that attracts me to Orthodox Christianity. My priest thinks the same way. I think Anabaptists and Orthodox Jews also deserve credit for thinking this way. I wish more religions did.

I hear ya man

 

[Mikeb85]

For me I wouldn't say Orthodox Christianity was a path to atheism, although it definitely was the last stop along the road to giving up Christianity altogether. I still love Orthodox Christianity mind you, I'm just not sure I can believe in it anymore.

Reading parts of the Buddhist Pali Canon, knowing about the historical circumstances surrounding Jesus (trade between the middle east and India, Greek Seleucid kings converting to Buddhism, Indian monks exchanging ideas with Greek philosophers, etc...), I can no longer believe that Christianity is a) unique in it's beliefs and practices or b) free from 'eastern' influences.

Everything I was taught by my priest about Hesychasm, detachment to worldly desires, Orthodox prayer, etc..., was taught by the Buddha, as was most of what Christ taught. While I can't say I'm a Buddhist (I much prefer Taoist mystical writings and teachings), I definitely am more at peace with the idea that I'm responsible for my actions, and that I should do good without promise of reward or fear of punishment (not to mention the idea that after death we are judged by our own actions, our conscience, etc..., which is an idea I've heard in Orthodox Christian circles as well).

 

[Blonde]

Mike, do I assume correctly that you expect God to be there at the end and you'll bear responsibility before Him?

 

[Mikeb85]

Mike, do I assume correctly that you expect God to be there at the end and you'll bear responsibility before Him?

I don't expect Him to be there, no. I came into the world alone, and kind of expect to leave it the same way. Maybe He will be, but nothing I've seen in my lifetime (including a lifetime of following Christianity, first fundamentalist Baptist and then Orthodox Christian) has convinced me that there is an omnipotent god, so I'm not going to live my life to please a being that may/may not exist.

At the same time, I believe there are metaphysical consequences to all our actions (Jesus said "You reap what you sow", Buddha explained it as Karma, or cause and effect, Lao Tzu likened it to a function of the universe itself), so I'm going to lead what most would still consider a good, moral, spiritual life (not much different than being Orthodox), not that I need a reason to, I've always thought it simply 'natural' to do good. I've also had experiences in my life that could be termed 'mystical', but I can't say that as a result of them I believe one philosophy/religion is more/less true than another...

 

[fschmidt]

Reading parts of the Buddhist Pali Canon, knowing about the historical circumstances surrounding Jesus (trade between the middle east and India, Greek Seleucid kings converting to Buddhism, Indian monks exchanging ideas with Greek philosophers, etc...), I can no longer believe that Christianity is a) unique in it's beliefs and practices or b) free from 'eastern' influences.

And you consider this a negative? I would think of it as a positive thing for Christianity.

Everything I was taught by my priest about Hesychasm, detachment to worldly desires, Orthodox prayer, etc..., was taught by the Buddha, as was most of what Christ taught. While I can't say I'm a Buddhist (I much prefer Taoist mystical writings and teachings), I definitely am more at peace with the idea that I'm responsible for my actions, and that I should do good without promise of reward or fear of punishment (not to mention the idea that after death we are judged by our own actions, our conscience, etc..., which is an idea I've heard in Orthodox Christian circles as well).

How does any of this conflict with Christianity? I am confused about why you switched.

I am not Christian because my brain isn't wired for faith. I cannot accept anything on faith, so no form of mysticism works for me. But I do like Christian moral teachings. In your case, it sounds like you traded faith in Christianity for faith in other religions. What do you find preferable about Taoist mysticism over Christianity?

 

[Mikeb85]

And you consider this a negative? I would think of it as a positive thing for Christianity.

How does any of this conflict with Christianity? I am confused about why you switched.

I am not Christian because my brain isn't wired for faith. I cannot accept anything on faith, so no form of mysticism works for me. But I do like Christian moral teachings. In your case, it sounds like you traded faith in Christianity for faith in other religions. What do you find preferable about Taoist mysticism over Christianity?

Mysticism isn't about faith, it's about experience. Mysticism means experience of the divine.

It conflicts with Christianity because Christianity makes some very exclusive claims, the fact that Buddhists and Taoists were using the same practices and had similar beliefs 600 years before Christ lived takes some of that 'exclusivity' away, and Christianity, by it's own criteria, cannot be the only exclusively true religion....

And I wouldn't say all Taoist or Buddhist mysticism is preferable to that of Orthodox Christianity, all 3 religions have their different sects with conflicting beliefs, some Taoists and Buddhists have gods they petition and others don't petition any deities and are essentially atheist. But I do enjoy the earliest Taoist writings, they present an image of the metaphysical universe in the simplest way, and promote the ideal form of morality and detachment from the world IMO...

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

As a Westerner, the more educated you [general you] are in a secular sense, the more you've immersed yourself in the hegemony of Enlightenment reductionism (whether you realise it or not). If you swallow this reductionism whole, without examining it for what it is, you tend towards atheism. Atheism is the faith choice of the reductionist.

People who are born Protestant and who are "thinkers" by nature will often (certainly not always) gravitate towards Orthodoxy, because it's the only internally coherent branch of Christianity.

If these "thinkers" keep "thinking", and start mistakenly applying reductionist scientific thinking to metaphysical concerns, they may stray into atheism too. So, if you know a lot of ex-Prot converts who became Orthodox and then atheists, this is my opinion of how it happened.

FWIW, I know faaaaaaaaaar more Prot -> atheist vs. other religion -> atheist. But that may be because I know a LOT of Protestants. Actually, my husband is one who went from evangelical Xianity straight to atheism due to the abuses and illogical nonsense he saw there.

ETA: another FWIW: I was a cradle atheist who turned Christian at age 22, after completing my cultural studies degree and examining all the philosophical arguments against God. After further searching within Xianity, I was received into Orthodoxy age 25. Not all roads lead to atheism.

Wow ! Nice leap you took here. I am sure the Catholic thinkers such as St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross (dark Night of the Soul) have not entered you thought process.

I was born and raised Catholic, yet I am a major critic of certain abuses that I have witnessed. So I am not a Radical traditionalist on the attack.

But you should be slightly embarrassed making comments regarding Protestants being greater thinkers than Catholic Christians. I think you exposed to us your weaknesses and biases.

Catholic intellectuals could fill volumes.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It conflicts with Christianity because Christianity makes some very exclusive claims, the fact that Buddhists and Taoists were using the same practices and had similar beliefs 600 years before Christ lived takes some of that 'exclusivity' away, and Christianity, by it's own criteria, cannot be the only exclusively true religion....

I don't get the point here. we make exclusive claims to be sure but not where God works. God could be working mystical experiences through Buddhists or Taoists or whomever. and they could be legit experiences for their salvation.

but just because we believe in a God who works where He wills, how does that mean that we cannot be the only true religion?

 

[Mikeb85]

I don't get the point here. we make exclusive claims to be sure but not where God works. God could be working mystical experiences through Buddhists or Taoists or whomever. and they could be legit experiences for their salvation.

but just because we believe in a God who works where He wills, how does that mean that we cannot be the only true religion?

Muslims will tell you Allah works in the hearts of those of all faiths, and that they will find Allah and achieve paradise.

Buddhists will tell you that all religions contain a portion of the Dhamma (and Buddhist missionaries were indeed very prolific from 600 B.C. until around 100 B.C.), and that there are universal truths which will lead you to the true Dhamma.

Taoists believe that the Tao, being an all encompassing force, can be observed and achieved by all, offering immortality to all.

Baha'i's believe that all the prophets were attempting to communicate the same message, and delivered it according to the needs of the people at the time - they emphasize the oneness of God, all peoples, and religions.

Hindus believe in a sort of pantheism, with various deities, and believe all the prophets/sages to be avatars of the various deities, some of whom are sent to deceive, some who teach, etc..., to maintain balance in the universe and uphold cycles of creation/destruction...

The idea that 'God works where He wills' does not do anything to prove/disprove Orthodox Christianity, many religions have the same idea.