Why is it called "ROMAN" Catholic Church

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LittleLambofJesus

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Surely by calling it "she" you mean to evoke the image of the Church has the Holy Mother Church, right?
rise from rome?
it was founded in rome by st.Peter and st.Paul
the first apostles to preach there
:p
Perhaps that is why so many non-RCs view the RCC/Rome as Babylon in Revelation :confused: :sorry:

Rotherham) 1 Peter 5:13 She who, in Babylon, is co-elect, and Mark my son, salute you:

Greek NT - Textus Rec.) 1 Peter 5:13 aspazetai umaV h en babulwni suneklekth kai markoV o uioV mou

http://www.christianforums.com/t7336954-10/#post50410964
What is the evidence of Peter in Rome

Babylon is a code-word for Rome. It is used that way multiple times in works like the Sibylline Oracles (5:159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch (2:1), and 4 Esdras (3:1). Eusebius Pamphilius, in The Chronicle, composed about A.D. 303, noted that “It is said that Peter’s first epistle, in which he makes mention of Mark, was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon.”..................

..............These references can’t be to the one-time capital of the Babylonian empire. That Babylon had been reduced to an inconsequential village by the march of years, military defeat, and political subjugation; it was no longer a “great city.” It played no important part in the recent history of the ancient world. From the New Testament perspective, the only candidates for the “great city” mentioned in Revelation are Rome and Jerusalem.

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Rick Otto

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Perhaps that is why so many non-RCs view the RCC/Rome as Babylon in Revelation :confused: :sorry:

Rotherham) 1 Peter 5:13 She who, in Babylon, is co-elect, and Mark my son, salute you:
Another opinion (John Gill):
1 Peter 5:13

Ver. 13. The church that is at Babylon[SIZE=+1],.... The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, supply the word "church", as we do. Some, by "Babylon", understand Rome, which is so called, in a figurative sense, in the book of the Revelations: this is an ancient opinion; so Papias understood it, as {e} Eusebius relates; but that Peter was at Rome, when he wrote this epistle, cannot be proved, nor any reason be given why the proper name of the place should be concealed, and a figurative one expressed. It is best therefore to understand it literally, of Babylon in Assyria, the metropolis of the dispersion of the Jews, and the centre of it, to whom the apostle wrote; and where, as the minister of the circumcision, he may be thought to reside, here being a number of persons converted and formed into a Gospel church state, whereby was fulfilled the prophecy in Ps 87:4[SIZE=+1] perhaps this church might consist chiefly of Jews, which might be the reason of the apostle's being here, since there were great numbers which continued here, from the time of the captivity, who returned not with Ezra; and these are said by the Jews {f} to be of the purest blood: many of the Jewish doctors lived here; they had three famous universities in this country, and here their Talmud was written, called from hence {g} Babylonian. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
 
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steve_bakr

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Perhaps that is why so many non-RCs view the RCC/Rome as Babylon in Revelation :confused: :sorry:

Rotherham) 1 Peter 5:13 She who, in Babylon, is co-elect, and Mark my son, salute you:

Greek NT - Textus Rec.) 1 Peter 5:13 aspazetai umaV h en babulwni suneklekth kai markoV o uioV mou

http://www.christianforums.com/t7336954-10/#post50410964
What is the evidence of Peter in Rome

Babylon in Revalations IS ancient Rome, but it is NOT the RCC.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)
 
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ebia

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steve_bakr said:
The correct description is the Catholic Church, Roman Rite. I was told this by the Deacon of my Church. Can anyone expand on this?

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

The "correct description" of what?

The idea that "Roman" in RCC refers to the Latin Rite is common among a lot of ordinary Catholics, but it's not what Protestants denoted when they coined the term and it's not what the Pope means by it when he appropriates it.
 
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Just a description of origin:

Roman Catholic Church

Eastern Orthodox Church

This reminds me when the PCA split off PCUSA, each claiming to be the original Presbyterians. Perhaps all denominations never got a church supposed to be if each claiming something the opposite of each other.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Yes, and if he wanted to make the definition of Catholic Church as that, he could have. As it is, however, he said, "wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church".

IOW, he doesn't say, wherever the priest is offering sacrifice, there is the Catholic Church.
I still don't get your point. Ignatius appears to be the earliest source of the term 'Catholic Church', and the context of the passage includes the notion of the Eucharist only being proper when administered by a Church official. I see no reason to separate the word 'Catholic' from that connotation, considering it earliest use appears to have carried that connotation.

That is what they'd like you to believe.
Who?

c155ad Polycarp, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna is another definitional frame of Catholic.

Clearly, the idea isn't that the Catholic Church was in Rome (though it could be), but that wherever believers are (where Jesus Christ is) is the Catholic Church. Bishop of the Catholic Church in Smryna.
The Catholic Church in Salina... the Catholic Church in Chicago... that we can properly use such terms does not affect the definition of 'Catholic'. We can apply an adjective to any amount of nouns we wish, but that in itself does not explain what the meaning of the adjective is.

You may read more in the introduction about "Ignatius" and there's probably later scholar work.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

But okay, we can rely on Polycarp or Irenaues' definition---where Christ is or same faith is the Catholic Church.
Sorry, but I do not see where Polycarp or Ignatius define 'Catholic'. I see that the terms are used in works by or related to those individuals, but I do not see where it is written that "Catholic means..." Without a straightforward statement of definition, we can only draw conclusions from the context in which the term was used.

In any event, the point remains that the Catholic Church and Roman Catholic Church are two different things. Roman Catholic didn't exist per se at that early stage. If anything, it would be Catholic Church in Rome, like Catholic Church in Smyrna. So for Roman Catholic, regardless of the rite, to call herself today "Catholic Church" is a misnomer; it is a redefinition of historical facts not only because that wasn't the definition, but also because it never existed as such. Historically, RC called herself and was known by the moniker Roman Church.
The Roman Church was established in the time of the Apostles. Some might claim that it has drastically changed, but I do not believe that the Roman Church ever at any point ceased to exist, nor that it ceased to be Catholic. Even according to your definition, the Roman Church is Catholic.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Standing Up Just a description of origin:

Roman Catholic Church

Eastern Orthodox Church
This reminds me when the PCA split off PCUSA, each claiming to be the original Presbyterians. Perhaps all denominations never got a church supposed to be if each claiming something the opposite of each other.
Are there still Romans today :confused:
Aren't they just simply Italians now :sorry:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation
[Reve 6:6/14:8]

Revelation 6:6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".
[John 11:48]
 
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Standing Up

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I still don't get your point. Ignatius appears to be the earliest source of the term 'Catholic Church', and the context of the passage includes the notion of the Eucharist only being proper when administered by a Church official. I see no reason to separate the word 'Catholic' from that connotation, considering it earliest use appears to have carried that connotation.

We just disagree.

Who?

The Catholic Church in Salina... the Catholic Church in Chicago... that we can properly use such terms does not affect the definition of 'Catholic'. We can apply an adjective to any amount of nouns we wish, but that in itself does not explain what the meaning of the adjective is.

True enough.

Sorry, but I do not see where Polycarp or Ignatius define 'Catholic'. I see that the terms are used in works by or related to those individuals, but I do not see where it is written that "Catholic means..." Without a straightforward statement of definition, we can only draw conclusions from the context in which the term was used.

The Roman Church was established in the time of the Apostles. Some might claim that it has drastically changed, but I do not believe that the Roman Church ever at any point ceased to exist, nor that it ceased to be Catholic. Even according to your definition, the Roman Church is Catholic.

True enough. But so it is with EO or P.

Hopefully, we can agree that the term Catholic Church used to mean something different (where Jesus is or same faith as apostles) than how it is used today (in communion with the Pope).
 
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This reminds me when the PCA split off PCUSA, each claiming to be the original Presbyterians. Perhaps all denominations never got a church supposed to be if each claiming something the opposite of each other.

Every group has done that that I'm aware of. Presbyterians, Mormons, Catholics, Orthodox, all claim to be the original Church.
 
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Standing Up

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Another opinion (John Gill):
1 Peter 5:13

Ver. 13. The church that is at Babylon[SIZE=+1],.... The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, supply the word "church", as we do. Some, by "Babylon", understand Rome, which is so called, in a figurative sense, in the book of the Revelations: this is an ancient opinion; so Papias understood it, as {e} Eusebius relates; but that Peter was at Rome, when he wrote this epistle, cannot be proved, nor any reason be given why the proper name of the place should be concealed, and a figurative one expressed. It is best therefore to understand it literally, of Babylon in Assyria, the metropolis of the dispersion of the Jews, and the centre of it, to whom the apostle wrote; and where, as the minister of the circumcision, he may be thought to reside, here being a number of persons converted and formed into a Gospel church state, whereby was fulfilled the prophecy in Ps 87:4[SIZE=+1] perhaps this church might consist chiefly of Jews, which might be the reason of the apostle's being here, since there were great numbers which continued here, from the time of the captivity, who returned not with Ezra; and these are said by the Jews {f} to be of the purest blood: many of the Jewish doctors lived here; they had three famous universities in this country, and here their Talmud was written, called from hence {g} Babylonian. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

Makes sense to me, not having a dog in the hunt, so to speak. Peter went to the Jews, while Paul went to the Gentiles.
 
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steve_bakr

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Standing Up said:
Every group has done that that I'm aware of. Presbyterians, Mormons, Catholics, Orthodox, all claim to be the original Church.

The Catholic Church is the historical Church

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)
 
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Standing Up

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The "correct description" of what?

The idea that "Roman" in RCC refers to the Latin Rite is common among a lot of ordinary Catholics, but it's not what Protestants denoted when they coined the term and it's not what the Pope means by it when he appropriates it.

Jerome the Protestant?^_^

Lucifer,25222522 Bishop 353, died 370. bishop of Cagliari, was sent by Liberius the bishop, with Pancratius and Hilary, clergy of the Roman church, to the emperor Constantius, as legates for the faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.v.iii.xcvii.html

Gregory the Great?

Inasmuch as in the isle of Corsica, at the place Nigeunum, in the possession which is called Cellas Cupias belonging to the holy Roman Church, which by the providence of God we serve
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf212.iii.v.vi.xv.html

Council at Carthage?

Faustinus, the bishop of the Potentine Church, in the province of Picenum, a legate of the Roman Church
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.v.html

Aquinas?

This passage refers specially to the bishops, priests, deacons and clerics of the Roman Church, on account of its dignity: and this for three reasons.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS_Q70_A2.html

Roman Catholics were the ones to coin the term, to define themselves as "Roman Church". Only later did they decide "Catholic Church" sounded better, as they attempt to claim they are the same today as the Church was some 2000 years ago.
 
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steve_bakr

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Standing Up said:
Sure. Just don't try to pass off that the Roman Catholic Church today is identical to that Catholic Church of some 2000 years ago.

Peace to you too.

It is the same Church but not identical.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Because the Western Patriarch (or Pope) is the Bishop of Rome.

In antiquity there used to be the Pentarchy, there were five major and significant centers of Christianity: Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome. Each was significant for various reasons.

Jerusalem was "Mother of all the churches" whose Patriarch was successor of the Seat of St. James.

Antioch was the second major place of apostolic activity, where we were first called "Christians" and the Patriarch was successor of Sts. Peter and Paul.

Alexandria was where the Catechetical School was founded, and was a significant hub of learning in the Greco-Roman world, and that also ended up including Christian learning. The Patriarch was successor of St. Mark the Evangelist.

Rome was capital of the Roman Empire, as such the bishop there was, in a sense, in the thick of what was going on in the world. The Patriarch was successor of St. Peter.

Byzantium became Constantinople and thus New Rome, the Patriarch of Constantinople was successor of St. Andrew.

Of these five Rome held a certain significant place, since much of the theological controversies that the Church faced arose in the East, the Bishop of Rome was often sought for his counsel on matters. Perhaps due to being able to be more impartial since Rome was of significant distance from the centers of these disputes.

After the collapse of the Western Empire significant historical events happened that both shaped the Church as well as Western Europe in general.

Firstly: Without a centralized civil authority the Bishop of Rome was often sought as an island of stability, and as Germanic kings and warlords fought one another the Church in Rome remained rather fixed and he was often sought for appeal.

Secondly: The liturgies of the West slowly became more standardized, being brought into conformity with the Liturgical Rite used in Rome (the Latin Rite). Part of this process ended up involving a change in the language of the Nicene Creed. A single word was added in the Liturgical Rite used among the Frankish people of Gaul, "Filioque". Originally the Bishop of Rome opposed this change, but over time it was adopted into the Roman Liturgy and disseminated as part of the liturgical standardization throughout Western Europe.

Thirdly: Muslim conquests of Byzantine lands not only meant less power for the Roman Emperor in Constantinople, but also meant that the Patriarchs were increasingly more separated. By the 11th century the only Patriarch still in Byzantine/Roman territory was the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Fourthly: Even prior to the Fall of Rome and collapse of the Western Empire Latin had begun to replace Greek as the dominant language. This caused linguistic barriers between East and West, between Greek theologians and Latin theologians. Theological and Liturgical differences which had been present in some form for some time became more significant. In effect this compounded other factors which led to a growing rift within the Church.

Fifthly: In the beginning of the 9th century the Bishop of Rome crowned Charlemagne the Holy Roman Emperor. This was no small matter as the Byzantine Emperor still claimed Western Europe as part of his domain. This, in a sense, meant that there were two Roman emperors, one Byzantine and one Frankish. This did not, by any means, help relations between the East and the West.

Sixthly: Originally the use of the word "pope" (meaning "papa") was a term of endearment applied to a bishop by the people. The Bishop of Rome wasn't the first or only to have this term applied, even to this day the Patriarch of Alexandria is referred to as "Pope" (c.f. Pope Shenouda III). In the 5th century Pope Leo I seems to have been the first to claim it as an exclusive title for the Roman Patriarch.

Seventhly: All of these factors ended up erupting in the middle of the 11th century. For one, the Pope argued that he had a primacy of jurisdiction (not just of honor as the East had traditionally taught), and insisted the authority to add the Filioque clause into the Creed apart from the need of an Ecumenical Council. The Patriarch of Constantinople rejected these claims. In 1054 two representatives of the Pope went to Constantinople and laid a Bull of Excommunication--the Patriarch of Rome had excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople. Outraged, the Patriarch of Constantinople returned the favor and excommunicated the Patriarch of Rome.

The Great Schism had just happened.

Both sides claim to be right. Both sides claim to be the True Church founded by Christ and that the other has broken away. Both claim to be the One, Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church.

What this, of course, meant in the West was that there was now only one Patriarch, the Pope in Rome.

In usual Roman Catholic parlance "Roman" simply refers to the Liturgical Rite, the Roman or Latin Rite. Eastern or Byzantine Catholics are those in communion with Rome who use the Byzantine Rite (and so on and so forth).

Though, arguably, among most Protestants and Orthodox the term "Roman" in the Roman Catholic Church refers also to the fact that it is constituted in part by being in ecclesiastical union with the Roman See.

In any event "Roman" has to do entirely with geography--the city of Rome. It has nothing to do with Constantine or the Roman Empire.

-CryptoLutheran

Well stated; and it took a Lutheran to do it;):thumbsup:.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Makes sense to me, not having a dog in the hunt, so to speak. Peter went to the Jews, while Paul went to the Gentiles.
Well, Paul did go to the Jews and attempt to convert them, but he was turned down :)

Acts 13:46 Being bold yet Paul and Barnabas said "to ye it was necessary first to be spoken the Word of the God.
Since ye are thrusting away it and not worthy judging yeselves of the age-abiding life, behold! we are turning into the Nations".

Galatian 2:8 For the inworking to Peter into Apostleship of the circumcision, inworks also to me into the Nations.
 
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Lysimachus

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Context, at the header:

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church


The Catholic Church refers to herself only as such. "Roman Church" refers to a particular diocese. The document you have posted was circulated by the Lutheran World Federation and responded to by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church acknowledges that many refer to her as "Roman Catholic Church", even though the Catholic Church (in communion with the successor of Peter) as a whole is not strictly Roman.

They are most certainly Roman. They are in the very same place the Caesars were. In Rome, the capital. The Vatican is a city right inside of Rome. There are numerous, and I mean NUMEROUS official documents I have read by the Roman Catholic Church that refer to themselves as the "Roman Catholic Church".

If the Catholic Church is now denying that the name "Roman" is associated with their official name, it is only because they are trying to face-save themselves--"patchup" work, from being understood as that Little Horn power that grew out of the Roman 4th Beast.
 
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