Why is it called "ROMAN" Catholic Church

[ivebeenshown]

My former Anglican Church calls itself an Catholic Church.It is Protestant.

That's interesting, but it does not call itself the Catholic Church, nor does the world recognize it as such.

 

[Standing Up]

Polycarp may have mentioned the Catholic Church, but did he write about what 'Catholic' signified when he used it?

It was written about Polycarp's martyrdom.

"The following letter purports to have been written by the Church at Smyrna to the Church at Philomelium, and through that Church to the whole Christian world ...

... and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world ...

... Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Eusebius quotes from the letter.

I have not seen him clarify what 'Catholic' meant to him. The earliest definition of 'Catholic' I can think of is Irenaeus, 180 AD. He said "the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said." After that, Cyprian said "the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another" around 254 AD. If you would like to claim that 'Catholic' meant something different to the Church in past, please provide your citations of Christians defining 'Catholic' which predate these.

"Ignatius" makes the first mention.

"... in this letter [to the Smyrnians] we first find the use of the phrase “Catholic Church” in patristic writings. He defines it as to be found “where Jesus Christ is,” words which certainly do not limit it to communion with a professed successor of St. Peter.'
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Interesting that we have two of the earliest citations that Polycarp is "where" the Catholic Church is. But basically, the definition in both of these cites is that Catholic Church is where Jesus Christ is, Shepard.

Also, please provide citations for your assertion that Polycarp disagreed with Anicetus so that we may further discuss that issue,

Evidently they disagreed about a number of things.

16. And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.
NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

although I must say that I find no reason to believe that such a disagreement would stand as evidence against the primacy of the See of Peter.

As Ireneaus points out, the See of Peter based its customs on presbyters, unlike Polycarp's apostles. Firmillian in 256 said basically the same thing.

I do not believe that the issue was the matter of an ecumenical council until the council of Nicaea, which is tauted by this forum as a creed, at least in part -- therefore, according to my beliefs, the date of celebration would not have been a mandate of the Church until it was decided at the council, even as the Apostles released mandates as recorded in Acts 15.

The original creed of Nicaea didn't include the phrase 'and the Son' regarding the Spirit (filique clause). So, we can try to be consistent, or we can be consistent.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It was written about Polycarp's martyrdom.

"The following letter purports to have been written by the Church at Smyrna to the Church at Philomelium, and through that Church to the whole Christian world ...

... and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world ...

... Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Eusebius quotes from the letter.

"Ignatius" makes the first mention.

"... in this letter [to the Smyrnians] we first find the use of the phrase “Catholic Church” in patristic writings. He defines it as to be found “where Jesus Christ is,” words which certainly do not limit it to communion with a professed successor of St. Peter.'
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Interesting that we have two of the earliest citations that Polycarp is "where" the Catholic Church is. But basically, the definition in both of these cites is that Catholic Church is where Jesus Christ is, Shepard.

I would agree with the statements of Ignatius in that regard as well. So do you think that Irenaeus 'introduced' a new definition or something? Or what about Cyprian?

Evidently they disagreed about a number of things.

16. And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.
NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

As Ireneaus points out, the See of Peter based its customs on presbyters, unlike Polycarp's apostles. Firmillian in 256 said basically the same thing.

...and the Sunday celebration was based on Scripture. Note that the issue was not majorly controversial at that time, although later some controversy would arise. Ultimately, the controversy was settled in the Catholic Church with the council of Nicaea.

The original creed of Nicaea didn't include the phrase 'and the Son' regarding the Spirit (filique clause). So, we can try to be consistent, or we can be consistent.

I don't see what weight this brings to the discussion. I believe that the filioque clause is theologically correct, the East clearly did not. But that has no bearing on whether or not to Sunday/Passover celebration controversy was settled by the council in 325AD.

 

[Standing Up]

I would agree with the statements of Ignatius in that regard as well. So do you think that Irenaeus 'introduced' a new definition or something? Or what about Cyprian?-snip-

Let's trace the definition of Catholic.

c100ad "Ignatius"---where Jesus Christ is.
c150ad about Polycarp---where Jesus Christ is, believers in Jesus Christ
c180ad Irenaeus---same faith
c250ad Cyprian---bound by priests

So, up to Cyprian, the definition of Catholic is fairly consistent (same faith, where Christ Jesus is). It was Catholic Church at Rome. Catholic Church at Smyrna. Catholic Church at Gaul. Catholic Church at your house. Catholic Church at my house.

At Cyprian, the definition of Catholic isn't "same faith", but is changed and became where the priest is. Sacerdotal. That definition, as I've maintained, continued to the present. This (sacerdotal-priest/sacrifice) is why OO, EO, and RC may teach contradictions, have different scripture, and follow various Traditions, yet claim to be "Catholic".

We still haven't got to the notion of the sense of "Catholic" as in communion with the Roman Church (Pope).

PS C350 IIRC the definition of Catholic was also modified to belief in the Trinity.

 

[Johnny Todd]

I would say from the tower of Babel, was when the first beast rose from the earth, thus Daniel told the King of (Babel) Babylon he was the head of gold......and down through the history we see beast coming out of the ancient empires, Rome we are told would deliver us a beast that would combine all the past beast (false religions) into one terrifying beast.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Let's trace the definition of Catholic.

c100ad "Ignatius"---where Jesus Christ is.
c150ad about Polycarp---where Jesus Christ is, believers in Jesus Christ
c180ad Irenaeus---same faith
c250ad Cyprian---bound by priests

Regarding Ignatius: was it not Ignatius who in the same paragraph wrote: "See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." If Ignatius is indeed to earliest source of the term 'Catholic' as relating to the Church, how are we to not consider this full context of his writing, which also declares that the Church has bishops, presbyters, and deacons instituted by God?

Regarding Polycarp: did Polycarp not write that "it is needful to abstain from all these things [aforementioned sins], being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ"?

Regarding Irenaeus: What does 'same faith' mean to you? Do you think that you and I have the 'same faith'? Also, what do you make of Irenaeus' statement that the Apostles delivered up their own place of government to the bishops of the Church, and his mention of 'the ecclesiastical tradition of the Apostles' and 'the succession of the episcopate'?

So, up to Cyprian, the definition of Catholic is fairly consistent (same faith, where Christ Jesus is). It was Catholic Church at Rome. Catholic Church at Smyrna. Catholic Church at Gaul. Catholic Church at your house. Catholic Church at my house.

At Cyprian, the definition of Catholic isn't "same faith", but is changed and became where the priest is. Sacerdotal. That definition, as I've maintained, continued to the present. This (sacerdotal-priest/sacrifice) is why OO, EO, and RC may teach contradictions, have different scripture, and follow various Traditions, yet claim to be "Catholic".

We still haven't got to the notion of the sense of "Catholic" as in communion with the Roman Church (Pope).

PS C350 IIRC the definition of Catholic was also modified to belief in the Trinity.

Ignatius, Polycarp, and Irenaeus appear to have placed importance on maintaining unity with the appointed ministers of the Church, so why is it that Cyprian's statement is regarded as any different? If all of the earliest usages of the term 'Catholic' in relation to the Church accompany mention of such an importance, does it make sense to detach that importance from the word 'Catholic'?

Thank you for sharing your understanding with me. We both may be able to benefit from this discussion. Let us continue to seek the Spirit of God.

 

[Standing Up]

Regarding Ignatius: was it not Ignatius who in the same paragraph wrote: "See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." If Ignatius is indeed to earliest source of the term 'Catholic' as relating to the Church, how are we to not consider this full context of his writing, which also declares that the Church has bishops, presbyters, and deacons instituted by God?

Doubtful. Many believe much of "Ignatius" is later interpolations. Besides, we're just looking at the definition of Catholic.

Regarding Polycarp: did Polycarp not write that "it is needful to abstain from all these things [aforementioned sins], being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ"?

Regarding Irenaeus: What does 'same faith' mean to you? Do you think that you and I have the 'same faith'?

Probably not beyond Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Also, what do you make of Irenaeus' statement that the Apostles delivered up their own place of government to the bishops of the Church, and his mention of 'the ecclesiastical tradition of the Apostles' and 'the succession of the episcopate'?

Ignatius, Polycarp, and Irenaeus appear to have placed importance on maintaining unity with the appointed ministers of the Church, so why is it that Cyprian's statement is regarded as any different? If all of the earliest usages of the term 'Catholic' in relation to the Church accompany mention of such an importance, does it make sense to detach that importance from the word 'Catholic'?

Thank you for sharing your understanding with me. We both may be able to benefit from this discussion. Let us continue to seek the Spirit of God.

You may note that Polycarp mentions only 'bishops' and deacons, as does Clement of Rome, Hermas, didache, and scripture. "Ignatius" mentions the well-known 3 office of bishop, priest, deacon.

I agree there's a sense of maintaing "the faith once delivered" within the 'bishop' and 'deacon' structure. That is Catholic originally. With Cyprian, Catholic becomes associated with sacerdotal, with priest/sacrifice.

And still c250, no association of Catholic as in communion with bishop of Rome. Probably have to wait to maybe 325 and Nicea or 450 and Leo.

 

[MKJ]

Context, at the header:

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church refers to herself only as such. "Roman Church" refers to a particular diocese. The document you have posted was circulated by the Lutheran World Federation and responded to by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church acknowledges that many refer to her as "Roman Catholic Church", even though the Catholic Church (in communion with the successor of Peter) as a whole is not strictly Roman.

I have read recently an explanation by the Pope saying that Roman Catholic as a term refers to the fact that all Catholics must be in communion with the see of Rome. Whether or not that has always been the usage, I think hit is fair enough to accept that explanation now.

I'm afraid I don't remember what the document was, but it may have been written as a cardinal.

 

[ebia]

I have read recently an explanation by the Pope saying that Roman Catholic as a term refers to the fact that all Catholics must be in communion with the see of Rome. Whether or not that has always been the usage, I think hit is fair enough to accept that explanation now.

I'm afraid I don't remember what the document was, but it may have been written as a cardinal.

Benedict/+Joseph Ratzinger has said exactly that in "God's Word". I can give a full quote if necessary. "Catholic" describes the universality and wholeness of the Church, "Roman" its centering in communion with the Bushop of Rome.

Roman Catholic is largely an English Protestant designation that refers to yhe church led by the Pope It's now been coopted well by the Pope in more or less that sense.

I don't think the idea that it means the Latin Rite is anything other than something fabricated by some Catholics looking for a reason to object to it.

 

[Rick Otto]

this came up on another thread, It didn't get a chance to be answered, can any Catholics tell me why its called "Roman" universal church?

Because that is what it realy (unofficialy) is.
It is what it is. lol

 

[ivebeenshown]

Doubtful. Many believe much of "Ignatius" is later interpolations. Besides, we're just looking at the definition of Catholic.

This relates to the definition of 'Catholic'. To know what this term meant to the early Church, we must consider the full context in which the word is used. As for your statement, "many believe much of Ignatius is later interpolations," who are the many, why should I trust them, and what evidence do you have that there are later interpolations in his works -- including information regarding which sections are not original to the work, such as when and by whom they were added.

Probably not beyond Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Why do you say this? Does our activity in the forum not indicate that we agree to the forum's interpretation of the Nicaean Creed (not including its definition of catholic), which contains more than that point of doctrine?

You may note that Polycarp mentions only 'bishops' and deacons, as does Clement of Rome, Hermas, didache, and scripture. "Ignatius" mentions the well-known 3 office of bishop, priest, deacon.

I do note this, sir. "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." For something to increase, it must have started growing.

I agree there's a sense of maintaing "the faith once delivered" within the 'bishop' and 'deacon' structure. That is Catholic originally. With Cyprian, Catholic becomes associated with sacerdotal, with priest/sacrifice.

Did Ignatius not say "Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it" in the same passage that he used the term Catholic? The immediate context of the word Catholic as used early on in the Church seems to indicate that Catholic was a term used to describe a Church which had bishops, and only the bishops were to administer the Eucharist.

And still c250, no association of Catholic as in communion with bishop of Rome. Probably have to wait to maybe 325 and Nicea or 450 and Leo.

Was this following statement by Tertullian from around 200AD not related to the doctrine of the Pope's office? “Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...'” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 Are there any arguments against this statement which also predate it?

 

[ivebeenshown]

Because that is what it realy (unofficialy) is.
It is what it is. lol

When does the Catholic Church officially refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church? Also, what are the earliest usages of the term "Roman Catholic Church"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When does the Catholic Church officially refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church? Also, what are the earliest usages of the term "Roman Catholic Church"?

Inquiring minds want to know

http://www.christianforums.com/t7602854-2/#post58858244

 

[Rick Otto]

When does the Catholic Church officially refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church?
Wiki:
The name "Catholic Church" has been used on official documents such as the title of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is also the term that Paul VI used when signing the sixteen documents of the Second Vatican Council. However, Church documents produced by both the Holy See and by certain national episcopal conferences occasionally refer to the Church by the name "Roman Catholic Church". The Catechism of Pope Pius X published in 1908 also used the term "Roman" to distinguish the Catholic Church from other Christian communities.

Also, what are the earliest usages of the term "Roman Catholic Church"?

Wiki:

The term Roman Catholic appeared in the English language at the beginning of the 17th century, to differentiate specific groups of Christians in communion with the Pope from others; comparable terms in other languages already existed. It has continued to be widely used in the English language ever since, although its usage has changed over the centuries.

Check out that second link. It goes into more detail.
btw, it's 12:08 here in Nebraska. What time is it in England?

 

[Fotina]

Wiki:

The term Roman Catholic appeared in the English language at the beginning of the 17th century, to differentiate specific groups of Christians in communion with the Pope from others; comparable terms in other languages already existed. It has continued to be widely used in the English language ever since, although its usage has changed over the centuries.

It's called the "Pope's Church" translated to English in another culture I know.

 

[Standing Up]

This relates to the definition of 'Catholic'. To know what this term meant to the early Church, we must consider the full context in which the word is used. As for your statement, "many believe much of Ignatius is later interpolations," who are the many, why should I trust them, and what evidence do you have that there are later interpolations in his works -- including information regarding which sections are not original to the work, such as when and by whom they were added.

Why do you say this? Does our activity in the forum not indicate that we agree to the forum's interpretation of the Nicaean Creed (not including its definition of catholic), which contains more than that point of doctrine?

I do note this, sir. "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." For something to increase, it must have started growing.

Did Ignatius not say "Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it" in the same passage that he used the term Catholic? The immediate context of the word Catholic as used early on in the Church seems to indicate that Catholic was a term used to describe a Church which had bishops, and only the bishops were to administer the Eucharist.

Was this following statement by Tertullian from around 200AD not related to the doctrine of the Pope's office? “Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...'” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 Are there any arguments against this statement which also predate it?

We're getting far afield of the original question. The earliest definition of Catholic was of Christ Jesus.

That RC wants to develop that definition to include sacerdotal notions is what she does.

Let's trace the definition of Catholic.

c100ad "Ignatius"---where Jesus Christ is.
c150ad about Polycarp---where Jesus Christ is, believers in Jesus Christ
c180ad Irenaeus---same faith
c250ad Cyprian---bound by priests

 

[Standing Up]

When does the Catholic Church officially refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church? Also, what are the earliest usages of the term "Roman Catholic Church"?

Tons of references. Here's one.


Jerome
Lucifer,25222522 Bishop 353, died 370. bishop of Cagliari, was sent by Liberius the bishop, with Pancratius and Hilary, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.v.iii.xcvii.html?highlight=roman church,clergy#highlightclergy of the Roman church, to the emperor Constantius, as legates for the faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.v.iii.xcvii.html

 

[ivebeenshown]

We're getting far afield of the original question. The earliest definition of Catholic was of Christ Jesus.

The earliest mention of 'Catholic Church' was in a paragraph which also said "let that only be a valid Eucharist which is administered by the bishop", in the writings of Ignatius.

That RC wants to develop that definition to include sacerdotal notions is what she does.

Isn't the notion of the Eucharist being valid only when administered by a bishop in itself sacerdotal?

Let's trace the definition of Catholic.

c100ad "Ignatius"---where Jesus Christ is.
c150ad about Polycarp---where Jesus Christ is, believers in Jesus Christ
c180ad Irenaeus---same faith
c250ad Cyprian---bound by priests

I feel that these short definitions exclude the full context of the usage of the words. For instance, you do not mention that Ignatius wrote to not do anything Church related without approval of the bishop, and to only consider the Eucharist valid if administered by a bishop, and that Irenaeus wrote that the Apostles delivered up their own place of government to chosen successors.

I feel that the full context in which the word was used is integral to understanding its usage. Of course, I had already mentioned these things, to which you made such a statement as "Many believe much of "Ignatius" is later interpolations", and in response I asked for evidence for your claim, and you have not yet provided any evidence. In fact, if you are going to claim that Ignatius is altered or corrupted, perhaps you should not rely on his work at all in determining what the earliest meaning of 'Catholic' was.

 

[Aeneas]

I would say from the tower of Babel, was when the first beast rose from the earth, thus Daniel told the King of (Babel) Babylon he was the head of gold......and down through the history we see beast coming out of the ancient empires, Rome we are told would deliver us a beast that would combine all the past beast (false religions) into one terrifying beast.

what

 

[Standing Up]

The earliest mention of 'Catholic Church' was in a paragraph which also said "let that only be a valid Eucharist which is administered by the bishop", in the writings of Ignatius.

Yes, and if he wanted to make the definition of Catholic Church as that, he could have. As it is, however, he said, "wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church".

IOW, he doesn't say, wherever the priest is offering sacrifice, there is the Catholic Church.

Isn't the notion of the Eucharist being valid only when administered by a bishop in itself sacerdotal?

That is what they'd like you to believe.

I feel that these short definitions exclude the full context of the usage of the words. For instance, you do not mention that Ignatius wrote to not do anything Church related without approval of the bishop, and to only consider the Eucharist valid if administered by a bishop, and that Irenaeus wrote that the Apostles delivered up their own place of government to chosen successors.

c155ad Polycarp, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna is another definitional frame of Catholic.

Clearly, the idea isn't that the Catholic Church was in Rome (though it could be), but that wherever believers are (where Jesus Christ is) is the Catholic Church. Bishop of the Catholic Church in Smryna.

I feel that the full context in which the word was used is integral to understanding its usage. Of course, I had already mentioned these things, to which you made such a statement as "Many believe much of "Ignatius" is later interpolations", and in response I asked for evidence for your claim, and you have not yet provided any evidence. In fact, if you are going to claim that Ignatius is altered or corrupted, perhaps you should not rely on his work at all in determining what the earliest meaning of 'Catholic' was.

You may read more in the introduction about "Ignatius" and there's probably later scholar work.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

But okay, we can rely on Polycarp or Irenaues' definition---where Christ is or same faith is the Catholic Church.

In any event, the point remains that the Catholic Church and Roman Catholic Church are two different things. Roman Catholic didn't exist per se at that early stage. If anything, it would be Catholic Church in Rome, like Catholic Church in Smryna. So for Roman Catholic, regardless of the rite, to call herself today "Catholic Church" is a misnomer; it is a redefinition of historical facts not only because that wasn't the definition, but also because it never existed as such. Hisorically, RC called herself and was known by the moniker Roman Church.