Why worry about global warming? (2)

[RickG]

Naturally, science doesn't so much as know what even caused the ice age.

There have been a number of ice ages to which are you referring. The graph below shows only the past 450,000 years but all ice ages over the past 800,000 years are known to have been caused by Milankovitch Cycles.

So? There will likely be no ice or cold polar climes one day when this state bites the dust. Who cares if it melts faster than same state so called science expected!? All that tells us is that they have limited info. No news there!

The majority of the world's population live at or near sea level. The majority of the world's commerce is conducted at or near sea level. The IPCC has predicted that due to melting ice caps and glaciers, sea level may rise from 1 to six meters by the end of this century. So far sea level rise has been accelerating faster than predictions. For me that is something to be concerned about. God's first and most most important commandment tells us to love our neighbor. I think caring about what might happen to other people is important?

 

[dad]

They certainly can be if we keep burning more fossil fuels!

No, actually, you can burn all you like and the future is still going to be the same. Hey, eco types strike me as such hypocrites! Do they go in the wilderness like John the Baptist, and stop driving to work, going on vacation, eating packaged foods, heating their house, using electricity from less than pure sources, and ertc etc etc? No! They try to tax others, and instill fear, and act as if man can save himself.

I mostly blame the power and influence of the fossil fuel lobby from preventing meaningful change off of fossil fuels. You know, something real and tangible, rather than imaginary.

Well, some people seem to feel that the hypocritical imposition of laws by the eco loyalists actually have ill effects on the earth. So who should we believe? I am persuaded that the real pollution is sin, and no matter how you try to hide it, or make it stink in another place or way, it is terminal! Man cannot save himself.

Where do you get this from? Milankovitch cycles and particularly large impacts/volcanic eruptions are known causes of ice ages.

Rubbish! No such thing. Imaginary time cannot make the greater part of any real cycle. That is a pathetic and baseless attempt to explain it all using present state earth laws. There was no 70,000 years ago. That cycle is circular and weak fantasy.

And this is why Christianity is so incredibly dangerous. You want to just burn the whole world to the ground.

Untrue. But we generally realize the true problem, and how to correct it, rather than delve into delusional visions of grandeur, where man saves the planet. Face it, man is well on his merry way to wrecking it. Now they want to try to pin it on Christians! No thanks.

 

[dad]

We know what physical laws existed. Asserting that they were different is not only baseless and unsupported, it is ridiculous. Here's a short list of published science showing what the climate was like during and long before Noah's time.


RealClimate: Mid-Holocene Climatic Optimum
...

I followed your first link, and see this

" We also now know from both data and "astronomical" (or "Milankovitch") theory that the period of above modern summer temperatures did not occur at the same time around the northern hemisphere, or in the southern hemisphere at all. "


Again, you offer present statism that you can't support! Let's see you try to support the Milankovitch stuff?

 

[dad]

We know because the chemistry of rocks both pre K-T and post K-T are exactly the same. If the physics were different they would not be the same.

Suppose you present scientific evidence for your assertions that the physics was different pre-Noah.

?? If the earth underwent a nature change now, and forces and laws were different, do you think that a pre KT layer or any other would somehow not be included?? I mean the atomic realities work deep in the ground too, no?

 

[dad]

Well then, let's expand it to over the past 1000 years.



Above is a composite of 16 independent paleoclimate reconstructions. Pay particular attention to the red line showing the past 130 years, and especially the past 40 years. Those few decades are magnitudes more than any of the past 1000 years.



Now, how about causes? The physics of CO2 as a greenhouse gas has been well known for over 150 years. Increases in atmospheric CO2 concentration causes global average temperature to rise. This is not only observed instrumentally, but the paleo record also supports those physics.




Now, how do we know this rise in atmospheric CO2 is human caused? Clue, compare the above graph with the one above it.

Now, how do we know something else is not causing the warming? That's why studying past climates are important. By seeing what caused climate to change in the past we know what to expect in the future. Think it might have been the sun? Nope, see the graph below.



Solar activity has actually been declining since the mid 1970's.

Well, I have no reason to debate recent climate changes. As sinful man get's more 'advanced', naturally he might tend to stink up the planet somewhat more! So??

But even this is somewhat a leap of faith, because others seem to suspect that cosmic forces may be a contributor, some 'natural' sort of cycles or changes, etc? How would we know if they were wrong? Yes, man is a suspect in this case for sure! But let's try to have a fair trail.

 

[dad]

There have been a number of ice ages to which are you referring. The graph below shows only the past 450,000 years but all ice ages over the past 800,000 years are known to have been caused by Milankovitch Cycles.

Nonsense, no such thing as those cycles. The different climates of the far past need not be assigned present state causes. Not at all. I find that ridiculous, and circular thinking. As for ice ages, I guess we could say we have one each winter....but I was thinking more of something a little more broad.

The majority of the world's population live at or near sea level. The majority of the world's commerce is conducted at or near sea level. The IPCC has predicted that due to melting ice caps and glaciers, sea level may rise from 1 to six meters by the end of this century.

Predicted? Add that to Jeanne Dixon's stuff I guess. So? Like they are privy to all the facts? Heck I would need convincing they are privy to all their marbles.

So far sea level rise has been accelerating faster than predictions.

O my goodness, the sky is falling??!!! Let's all freak out. I am not worried, they used to tell us we would starve, and not have enough food, and be blah blah. The godless fear mongers always have some fool notion to crow about. How would I know when the Lord will return? A lot of things that they can't foresee could put a crimp in their little prophetic cord.

For me that is something to be concerned about. God's first and most most important commandment tells us to love our neighbor. I think caring about what might happen to other people is important?

That doesn't include pretending man can save himself. I didn't feel a lot of love in the way Qaddafi was treated recently. Man is like that....

 

[Chalnoth]

No, actually, you can burn all you like and the future is still going to be the same.

So, I see you like to live in a world where people have no responsibility whatsoever for their actions. Murder! Rape! Pillage! It's all the same. Humans can't change anything...

Meanwhile, those of us who live in reality actually have a sense of personal responsibility.

 

[RickG]

I followed your first link, and see this

" We also now know from both data and "astronomical" (or "Milankovitch") theory that the period of above modern summer temperatures did not occur at the same time around the northern hemisphere, or in the southern hemisphere at all. "


Again, you offer present statism that you can't support! Let's see you try to support the Milankovitch stuff?

The link to realclimate.org was not about causes of the ice ages, it was about the climate of the Mid-Holocene. You asked about what was known about climate during Noah's time. That link has additional links as well as references to scientific literature to the climate of Noah's time and well before it. Remember, your assertion was we did not know what the climate was like during Noah's time.

 

[RickG]

?? If the earth underwent a nature change now, and forces and laws were different, do you think that a pre KT layer or any other would somehow not be included?? I mean the atomic realities work deep in the ground too, no?

And your supporting evidence that the laws of physics have changed is what? Please provide citations to the scientific literature.

 

[dad]

So, I see you like to live in a world where people have no responsibility whatsoever for their actions. Murder! Rape! Pillage! It's all the same. Humans can't change anything...

Meanwhile, those of us who live in reality actually have a sense of personal responsibility.

False accusations. People that fear God would have reason to try to be good. We no more want to destroy and stink up the planet, than we think man can save it or himself. Recognizing we are sinners does not mean murder and rape and pillage is what we want to do. Try to be honest.

I personally dislike the eco religion. Sorry just not much of a druid tree hugger I guess.

 

[dad]

And your supporting evidence that the laws of physics have changed is what? Please provide citations to the scientific literature.

The only record we have supports a different state past. Nothing supports your imagined state in the past. So forget any conclusions built on belief in one.

 

[mzungu]

The only record we have supports a different state past. Nothing supports your imagined state in the past. So forget any conclusions built on belief in one.

So sayeth the man who has had all his claims refuted yet still refuses to come to terms with reality.

You constantly deride the evidences brought forth to you and you dismiss the very fruits of science you enjoy.

This is HYPOCRISY at its highest.

 

[Chalnoth]

False accusations. People that fear God would have reason to try to be good.

So why do you argue so vociferously against being good? Why do you want so badly to continue performing actions that bring harm to many, and will only bring greater harm in the future?

 

[dad]

So sayeth the man who has had all his claims refuted yet still refuses to come to terms with reality.

To refute my claim that science can't prove a same state past, you would need to prove one. I am quite safe in the total victory dept, apparently! How sweet it is too.

You constantly deride the evidences brought forth to you and you dismiss the very fruits of science you enjoy.

I dismiss nothing that is reasonable or solidly evidenced. You provide nothing that is reasonable or solidly evidenced!! What poetic justice, and irony.

 

[dad]

So why do you argue so vociferously against being good?

Being good has nothing to do with being an eco freako.

Why do you want so badly to continue performing actions that bring harm to many, and will only bring greater harm in the future?

Such as..??
No idea what you are raving about.

 

[Chalnoth]

Being good has nothing to do with being an eco freako.

There's nothing "eco freako" about wanting to live without being poisoned by industrial runoff. There is nothing "eco freako" about wanting to be able to keep cropland fertile and productive. There is nothing "eco freako" about not wanting coastal cities to be drowned in the ocean.

This is simply about recognizing that our actions have consequences. Something you apparently refuse to accept.

 

[dad]

There's nothing "eco freako" about wanting to live without being poisoned by industrial runoff.

..or apple pie! So? Have you met anyone anywhere, ever, that wanted to be so poisoned??? Be honest.

There is nothing "eco freako" about wanting to be able to keep cropland fertile and productive. There is nothing "eco freako" about not wanting coastal cities to be drowned in the ocean.

..or the sky from falling...we know. Have you met folks that actually wanted all that? What foolishness is this??

This is simply about recognizing that our actions have consequences. Something you apparently refuse to accept.

Of course believers accept that. The consequences of believing God, and His Son, or not. The concequences of sin....which you can do squat about, despite any pretenses as well. The consequences of living in a temporal state. The consequences of living in a post flood world....hey we are all over it pal.

 

[Chalnoth]

..or apple pie! So? Have you met anyone anywhere, ever, that wanted to be so poisoned??? Be honest.

With the way you're behaving in this thread, you certainly seem to.

Of course believers accept that.

It's not about belief. It's about evidence.

 

[mzungu]

..or apple pie! So? Have you met anyone anywhere, ever, that wanted to be so poisoned??? Be honest.

YES: YOU! and all the other pro rapture freakos who want the end of the world to come as soon as possible so that they can go to heaven!

..or the sky from falling...we know. Have you met folks that actually wanted all that? What foolishness is this??
Of course believers accept that. The consequences of believing God, and His Son, or not. The concequences of sin....which you can do squat about, despite any pretenses as well. The consequences of living in a temporal state. The consequences of living in a post flood world....hey we are all over it pal.

Like I said. You people don't care because you wish to hasten the rapture. Well you may as well forget it because we will not allow such people to destroy the environment. You can of course take kool aid

 

[dad]

With the way you're behaving in this thread, you certainly seem to.


It's not about belief. It's about evidence.

So did you not accuse me of not wanting to do some things? You forgot to mention exactly what and how we are supposed to conform to eco freako commandments?