Why worry about global warming? (2)

[dad]

Your post has lost context. To whose claim are you referring?



Context again dad. What doesn't exist to what unproven past?

Let me make this real clear and simple for you. If you claim that the climate was a certain way in the days of Noah, then you need to know what laws existed. Otherwise you have no way of knowing or making any extension....

 

[dad]

Quantum physics comes to mind. If physics changed at the quantum level, then the earth could not exist prior to Noah's flood. Additionally, why does everything below the level of Noah's flood contain the same physics as everything above it?

The nature we have exists at all depths that we know of. If any laws were different, for example pre KT layer, how would we know?

 

[Chalnoth]

Rick G your quantum physics stuff is just a bunch of hot air you are not saying anything with it. Why don't you get on track and talk about GW or the topic at hand. The topic at hand is basics from the Bible I think and other things.

You could always ignore the discussion between dad and RickG, and focus, for example, on the last post that related to climate change:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7598562-11/#post58824209

 

[dad]

You could always ignore the discussion between dad and RickG, and focus, for example, on the last post that related to climate change:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7598562-11/#post58824209

One cannot ignore the fact that climate change is irrelevant unless it covers the far past. To do that one must know what went on and be able to connect the dots. One cannot discuss one's way around that elephant in the room.

 

[mzungu]

DAD has never offered any evidence to support his claims. So it is of my opinion that he has been totally refuted and defeated. I do not however advise anyone to tell him of this because the awakening will be too rude for him to handle. It seems that humility (a fundamental prerequisite of the Christian faith) is totally lacking while pride and vanity are all he has left!

DAD, you could try to find the courage to admit when you are wrong instead of clinging to your pride. A little humility is all that is required but it takes faith and courage to express it!

 

[Chalnoth]

One cannot ignore the fact that climate change is irrelevant unless it covers the far past. To do that one must know what went on and be able to connect the dots. One cannot discuss one's way around that elephant in the room.

*sigh*

AGW is about the present and the future, not the past. Paleoclimate history is interesting, and potentially informative, but not remotely essential to climate science.

 

[dad]

DAD has never offered any evidence to support his claims.

No one has offered any evidence to support a present state set of forces and laws existing in the far past, nor can one by science.

Therefore we will no longer tolerate silly vile godless claims on climate or anything else based on some ignorant belief about how it was. That's what I'm talkin bout.

So it is of my opinion that he has been totally refuted and defeated. I do not however advise anyone to tell him of this because the awakening will be too rude for him to handle. It seems that humility (a fundamental prerequisite of the Christian faith) is totally lacking while pride and vanity are all he has left!

Focus on issues, and forget the gibberish and jealousy. Take it gracefully.

DAD, you could try to find the courage to admit when you are wrong instead of clinging to your pride.

God is right. Science doesn't know. You merely blather.

A little humility is all that is required but it takes faith and courage to express it!

Humility and victory go hand in hand. Humility has zero to do with surrendering to godless ignorance and baseless claims.

Stop thinking and talking about dad, and look at the issues.

 

[dad]

*sigh*

AGW is about the present and the future, not the past. Paleoclimate history is interesting, and potentially informative, but not remotely essential to climate science.

OK, then if all you are trying to claim is some rinky dink changes in the last decades....carry on....

 

[Chalnoth]

OK, then if all you are trying to claim is some rinky dink changes in the last decades....carry on....

These changes are already enough to lead to measurable increases in the strength of storms (of all sizes), increased frequency of droughts, and significant changes in the range for various human agriculture. Things are likely to get vastly worse in the coming decades.

 

[dad]

These changes are already enough to lead to measurable increases in the strength of storms (of all sizes), increased frequency of droughts, and significant changes in the range for various human agriculture. Things are likely to get vastly worse in the coming decades.

"These" changes?? Since you apparently refer to changes in the recent past, and don't really know what causes them, why would anyone care?

It seems to be saying ' the last few decades has seen a trend of warming, that causes....this and that and the other thing....'and we fear greatly that this will extend into the future'. Well, newsflash: there is a lot more to fear. The bible talks of sudden changes so huge that all the things men knows and has counted on will cease to exist. Stars, sun, moon, trees, and nature as we know it...even day and night...etc. Why would I fear your mickey mouse would be trends? I mean you can't extend them into the far past, and can't extend them into the future....

 

[Chalnoth]

"These" changes?? Since you apparently refer to changes in the recent past, and don't really know what causes them, why would anyone care?

Except we do know the cause, and quite precisely: the primary cause is human burning of fossil fuels. This isn't simple extrapolation of trends. We used lab experiments to determine how CO2 gas blocks certain sorts of radiation. We used simple atmospheric models to demonstrate that when you put more CO2 in the atmosphere, the effect of this blocking of radiation is to increase the temperature of the surface. We then checked and verified that this was actually happening to us (one way is by looking at the upper atmosphere....while the surface is warming due to an increase in the greenhouse effect, the upper atmosphere actually cools, which we have observed).

These simplest models explain the recent warming to within about a factor of two. If we plug in more accurate models that factor in all of the known effects, we replicate very precisely the recent warming. So we are quite sure that the parts of AGW that are essential to temperature changes are well-understood.

What is less well-understood are things like ice dynamics, such as how rapidly the land and sea ice will melt. So far, all of our estimates of ice melt have dramatically underestimated the actual melt.

 

[mzungu]

Not just serpents...God spoke as well as possibly all creatures. But expressing personal incredulity about what happened long before you or science existed is neither here nor there.

I see so your PC runs on pixie dust and the internet on Satan's Breath! GOTCHA!

 

[dad]

I see so your PC runs on pixie dust and the internet on Satan's Breath! GOTCHA!

No, you don't quite get it, actually. Work on that.

 

[dad]

Except we do know the cause, and quite precisely: the primary cause is human burning of fossil fuels.

So what? Any changes that are recent cannot be extended into the future. Besides, how many coal burning power producing plants exist that contribute to this trend? How may people fly around the world on vacations burning these fuels you are lamenting about? How many godless universities burn fossil fuels heating and powering themselves? How many godless vile selfish wars use fossil fuels? etc etc..... Blame sin. As it get's more intense as we approach the end period, naturally things heat up.

This isn't simple extrapolation of trends. We used lab experiments to determine how CO2 gas blocks certain sorts of radiation. We used simple atmospheric models to demonstrate that when you put more CO2 in the atmosphere, the effect of this blocking of radiation is to increase the temperature of the surface. We then checked and verified that this was actually happening to us (one way is by looking at the upper atmosphere....while the surface is warming due to an increase in the greenhouse effect, the upper atmosphere actually cools, which we have observed).

So what!!??? You toss the stuff up...But your fear mongering seems to ignore the God factor...that is, that man will not rule forever, nor will this state exist forever. Your projections are based on this state. Get it??

These simplest models explain the recent warming to within about a factor of two. If we plug in more accurate models that factor in all of the known effects, we replicate very precisely the recent warming. So we are quite sure that the parts of AGW that are essential to temperature changes are well-understood.

So what?? No understanding leaves this state.

What is less well-understood are things like ice dynamics, such as how rapidly the land and sea ice will melt.

Naturally, science doesn't so much as know what even caused the ice age. So??

So far, all of our estimates of ice melt have dramatically underestimated the actual melt.

So? There will likely be no ice or cold polar climes one day when this state bites the dust. Who cares if it melts faster than same state so called science expected!? All that tells us is that they have limited info. No news there!

 

[Chalnoth]

So what? Any changes that are recent cannot be extended into the future.

They certainly can be if we keep burning more fossil fuels!

Besides, how many coal burning power producing plants exist that contribute to this trend? How may people fly around the world on vacations burning these fuels you are lamenting about? How many godless universities burn fossil fuels heating and powering themselves? How many godless vile selfish wars use fossil fuels? etc etc..... Blame sin. As it get's more intense as we approach the end period, naturally things heat up.

I mostly blame the power and influence of the fossil fuel lobby from preventing meaningful change off of fossil fuels. You know, something real and tangible, rather than imaginary.

Naturally, science doesn't so much as know what even caused the ice age. So??

Where do you get this from? Milankovitch cycles and particularly large impacts/volcanic eruptions are known causes of ice ages.

So? There will likely be no ice or cold polar climes one day when this state bites the dust. Who cares if it melts faster than same state so called science expected!? All that tells us is that they have limited info. No news there!

And this is why Christianity is so incredibly dangerous. You want to just burn the whole world to the ground.

 

[mzungu]

No, you don't quite get it, actually. Work on that.

Ok You are right it is not Satan's breath but Dragons breath

 

[RickG]

Rick G your quantum physics stuff is just a bunch of hot air you are not saying anything with it. Why don't you get on track and talk about GW or the topic at hand. The topic at hand is basics from the Bible I think and other things.

Perhaps you are thinking about the theoretical part of quantum physics rather than what is factually known. By quantum level I mean how we know how chemicals will react with one another and the physical properties that govern those reactions. If they changed after Noah then everything preceding Noah could not exist. Example: Water is H2O. Change the physics that combines two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen and there is no water. Claiming that physics changed is ridiculous and completely unsupported by any science.

About getting back on topic I agree.

 

[RickG]

Let me make this real clear and simple for you. If you claim that the climate was a certain way in the days of Noah, then you need to know what laws existed. Otherwise you have no way of knowing or making any extension....

We know what physical laws existed. Asserting that they were different is not only baseless and unsupported, it is ridiculous. Here's a short list of published science showing what the climate was like during and long before Noah's time.


RealClimate: Mid-Holocene Climatic Optimum

NOAA Paleoclimatology Global Warming - The Data


http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/Coherent.pdf


http://shadow.eas.gatech.edu/~jean/monsoon/Kutzbach_1981.pdf


https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~wsoon/HoloceneClimate+Optimum10-d/Mayewskietal04-HoloceneClimVar.pdf

https://www.ucd.ie/geology/prg/pdf files/mcdermott et al. 2001 science.pdf

http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/Steig.pdf

http://www.acrim.com/reference file...ene climate in the alaskan subarctic_2003.pdf

Ganopolski, A., C. Kubatzki, M. Claussen, V. Brovkin, and V. Petoukhov, The Influence of Vegetation-Atmosphere-Ocean Interaction on Climate During the Mid-Holocene, Science, 280, 1916-1919, 1998.


Hewitt, C.D. and J.F.B. Mitchell, A Fully Coupled GCM Simulation of the Climate of the Mid-Holocene, Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 361-364, 1998.


Kitoh, A., and S. Murakami, Tropical Pacific Climate at the mid-Holocene and the Last Glacial Maximum simulated by a coupled ocean-atmosphere general circulation model, Paleoceanography, 17, 1-13, 2002.

 

[RickG]

The nature we have exists at all depths that we know of. If any laws were different, for example pre KT layer, how would we know?

We know because the chemistry of rocks both pre K-T and post K-T are exactly the same. If the physics were different they would not be the same.

Suppose you present scientific evidence for your assertions that the physics was different pre-Noah.

 

[RickG]

"These" changes?? Since you apparently refer to changes in the recent past, and don't really know what causes them, why would anyone care?

It seems to be saying ' the last few decades has seen a trend of warming, that causes....this and that and the other thing....'and we fear greatly that this will extend into the future'. Well, newsflash: there is a lot more to fear. The bible talks of sudden changes so huge that all the things men knows and has counted on will cease to exist. Stars, sun, moon, trees, and nature as we know it...even day and night...etc. Why would I fear your mickey mouse would be trends? I mean you can't extend them into the far past, and can't extend them into the future....

Well then, let's expand it to over the past 1000 years.

Above is a composite of 16 independent paleoclimate reconstructions. Pay particular attention to the red line showing the past 130 years, and especially the past 40 years. Those few decades are magnitudes more than any of the past 1000 years.

Now, how about causes? The physics of CO2 as a greenhouse gas has been well known for over 150 years. Increases in atmospheric CO2 concentration causes global average temperature to rise. This is not only observed instrumentally, but the paleo record also supports those physics.

Now, how do we know this rise in atmospheric CO2 is human caused? Clue, compare the above graph with the one above it.

Now, how do we know something else is not causing the warming? That's why studying past climates are important. By seeing what caused climate to change in the past we know what to expect in the future. Think it might have been the sun? Nope, see the graph below.

Solar activity has actually been declining since the mid 1970's.