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Let's talk about Ichneumonidae

Grumpy Old Man

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Two big things... To what standard do you, or can you judge these creatures as "twisted."

And two, where does the bible say God is an omni benevolent Deity?

Can you see the problem you seem to be having over and over? is that you have created your own image of God and then find things that contradict this image to use as "evidence" to doubt the very existence of God to begin with.

My question is that even if you do not believe in God, why would you think God would model Himself after what you perceive God to be?

Wouldn't it be more logical to address the God of the bible as the bible has described Him, rather than to address the God of the bible as you have created Him?

You're right I guess. It was the nature of suffering that led me to atheism in the first place. I just don't see how Christians can claim "God is love" when there is so much suffering and hostility in the world. If I claim to love someone yet don't aid them when they're going through a difficult time, what good is my love? As a human I can only see things, and judge things, from a human perspective. I don't understand the Bible God, and I don't think Christians do either because they get flummoxed by the same questions, but because of their beliefs they end up having to make excuses for him.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Personally I think the only way to account for suffering is to ditch the idea that God's number one objective is to make life as comfortable as possible for us. Not all branches of Christianity have believed that anyway; only those evangelicals who prefer their God to come sugar coated.

Then what is the point of worshipping God? What good does he do you? Do Christians only believe in him because they don't want to go to hell? What if hell doesn't exist? You've wasted your life worshipping an incomprehensible and erratic deity.
 
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lesliedellow

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Then what is the point of worshipping God? What good does he do you? Do Christians only believe in him because they don't want to go to hell? What if hell doesn't exist? You've wasted your life worshipping an incomprehensible and erratic deity.

Because he is God and worthy of worship. As for "wasting my life" why do you think I would be indulging in wine women and song if I didn't read the Bible. I thought that was supposed to be our caricature of atheists. (So stop infringing our copyright please.)
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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My question is that even if you do not believe in God, why would you think God would model Himself after what you perceive God to be?

Wouldn't it be more logical to address the God of the bible as the bible has described Him, rather than to address the God of the bible as you have created Him?

I do try to address God as the Bible describes him. In the OT we're presented with this constantly angry, over-emotion train-wreck of a deity, who is always trying to clean up the mess he made of the world while blaming humans for it. Let's face it, if God hadn't stuck a tree and a talking snake in the Garden of Eden then nobody would be in the mess they're in (if the story is actually true). There surely must have been a better way to test Adam and Eve's capacity for free will. Instead, God shifts the blame over to mankind when he really should have taken responsibility for his own creation. When we get to the New Testament, God's best solution to the problem is to get a virgin pregnant (abstinence clearly doesn't work) so he can be born a human and then get killed in a suitably grizzly fashion, thus making humanity even more responsible for the mess God himself caused in the first place.

I don't mean that to be offensive. It's just how I see the Bible. If I'm honest, I would really like to believe in God. That's why I'm on these forums. I want to learn more. But the more I look into Christianity the more I find it logically... illogical? None of it makes sense. There's too many gaps in the Bible, too much that doesn't fit or work out correctly.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Because he is God and worthy of worship. As for "wasting my life" why do you think I would be indulging in wine women and song if I didn't read the Bible. I thought that was supposed to be our caricature of atheists. (So stop infringing our copyright please.)

Admittedly, I got drunk last night ( hangover right now, and I'm at work too). Sadly though, I suck with the ladies and I can't sing either.
 
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drich0150

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You're right I guess. It was the nature of suffering that led me to atheism in the first place. I just don't see how Christians can claim "God is love" when there is so much suffering and hostility in the world.
Love is not a feeling or a baseless claim to another. Love is forged in the fire proofed by the hammer. Without the fire or the hammer love is just a concept or a personal philosophy.

If I claim to love someone yet don't aid them when they're going through a difficult time, what good is my love?
I may also ask what Good is your understanding of love if you will not let your beloved develop beyond your control over their lives? you are loosely describing codependents, not love.

As a human I can only see things, and judge things, from a human perspective. I don't understand the Bible God, and I don't think Christians do either because they get flummoxed by the same questions, but because of their beliefs they end up having to make excuses for him.
Your right not all do. But those who ask and pray for the hammer and fire most certainly do, I can assure you. If you want a true sense of understanding of the God of the bible all you have to do is ask seek and knock for it. He will freely give for all who are willing to receive. Just know you will be headed to the fire and hammer, and not into your philosophical understanding of love.
 
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bling

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Yes, but why did a loving God create Ichneumonidae? Would you say that these "creations" are the work of a loving, benevolent God? Nothing you've said above answers this. I don't want this thread to get sidetracked on the nature of God's love. I just want to understand how a benevolent deity, as Christians believe, could create such horrible creatures.
What is horrible about creating a mechanism for controlling the population of some caterpillar?

There is a little fly that sprays its eggs on fire ants that eventual cause there head to fall off, I wish I had more of them.
 
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Cuddles333

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If one only wants to look at the portions of nature that we humans find horrible for their reason to not believe in the God of the Bible, that will surely work. However, there is a whole other side with evidence abounding to prove His existence. The insect and reptilian world are extremely brutal to us and we cannot understand why God would have created them with such 'means of survival' . If this were all the evidence we had, we could make the case that no benevolent deity exists. That is not the case though.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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If one only wants to look at the portions of nature that we humans find horrible for their reason to not believe in the God of the Bible, that will surely work. However, there is a whole other side with evidence abounding to prove His existence. The insect and reptilian world are extremely brutal to us and we cannot understand why God would have created them with such 'means of survival' . If this were all the evidence we had, we could make the case that no benevolent deity exists. That is not the case though.

From an non-theistic evolutionary perspective, the violence of nature makes perfect sense. This is why I don't believe in God. The universe is exactly as it should be if no benevolent deity existed to create it. However, when we throw God into the mix, it is then that we encounter problems. Why did this God create nature to be so vile, immoral and violent? Why is there suffering in the world? Theists just haven't answered these questions well enough for me to believe in their God.
 
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golgotha61

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I do try to address God as the Bible describes him. In the OT we're presented with this constantly angry, over-emotion train-wreck of a deity, who is always trying to clean up the mess he made of the world while blaming humans for it. Let's face it, if God hadn't stuck a tree and a talking snake in the Garden of Eden then nobody would be in the mess they're in (if the story is actually true). There surely must have been a better way to test Adam and Eve's capacity for free will. Instead, God shifts the blame over to mankind when he really should have taken responsibility for his own creation. When we get to the New Testament, God's best solution to the problem is to get a virgin pregnant (abstinence clearly doesn't work) so he can be born a human and then get killed in a suitably grizzly fashion, thus making humanity even more responsible for the mess God himself caused in the first place.

I don't mean that to be offensive. It's just how I see the Bible. If I'm honest, I would really like to believe in God. That's why I'm on these forums. I want to learn more. But the more I look into Christianity the more I find it logically... illogical? None of it makes sense. There's too many gaps in the Bible, too much that doesn't fit or work out correctly.

You once posted that you had been a practicing Christian for 20 years and due to some bad and hurtful behavior in the church, you turned against God. I think I have this correctly summarized, if not I trust you will correct me.

If it is true you once believed, I don't think it is possible to unbelieve. The scriptures say that God will complete what He has started in you and I believe this is the process you are going through. Instead of being "convinced again" of His existence, I believe the process is one of settling your issues with God.

A great many of us have been hurt deeply in and by the church body, I am no exception. I just don't think "throwing out the baby with the bathwater' is the solution.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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You once posted that you had been a practicing Christian for 20 years and due to some bad and hurtful behavior in the church, you turned against God. I think I have this correctly summarized, if not I trust you will correct me.

If it is true you once believed, I don't think it is possible to unbelieve. The scriptures say that God will complete what He has started in you and I believe this is the process you are going through. Instead of being "convinced again" of His existence, I believe the process is one of settling your issues with God.

A great many of us have been hurt deeply in and by the church body, I am no exception. I just don't think "throwing out the baby with the bathwater' is the solution.

I didn't stop believing because of the people in the Church. No, I stopped believing because I found that the Bible made no sense to me logically. The more I read about evolution, science, etc, the more realised the Bible could not be right. Even as a very young Christian I struggled to accept the Garden of Eden story.

My "problem" is that I still want to believe in God, but I just can't seem to do so in a way that appeases my reason. I simply cannot accept many of the silly Bible stories (talking snakes, talking donkeys, miracles, etc).
 
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lesliedellow

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My "problem" is that I still want to believe in God, but I just can't seem to do so in a way that appeases my reason. I simply cannot accept many of the silly Bible stories (talking snakes, talking donkeys, miracles, etc).

On the one hand, it is not necessary, or even sensible, to read every story literally - although it is necessary to read them as if they were written for a reason. On the other hand, it must nevertheless be accepted that what is possible for God cannot be measured against what is possible for man.
 
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drich0150

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I didn't stop believing because of the people in the Church. No, I stopped believing because I found that the Bible made no sense to me logically. The more I read about evolution, science, etc, the more realized the Bible could not be right. Even as a very young Christian I struggled to accept the Garden of Eden story.

My "problem" is that I still want to believe in God, but I just can't seem to do so in a way that appeases my reason. I simply cannot accept many of the silly Bible stories (talking snakes, talking donkeys, miracles, etc).

So... you have trouble believing in a God greater than your own personal understanding of how things work?

what of the explanations given by science? Do you truly understand every theory every shred of evidence given by "science?" Or is faith somehow more palatable in the scientific realm you have chose to embrace?? why do you suppose that is? Why is it OK to have "faith" in some things but not others?
 
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razeontherock

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You're right I guess. It was the nature of suffering that led me to atheism in the first place. I just don't see how Christians can claim "God is love" when there is so much suffering and hostility in the world. If I claim to love someone yet don't aid them when they're going through a difficult time, what good is my love? As a human I can only see things, and judge things, from a human perspective. I don't understand the Bible God, and I don't think Christians do either because they get flummoxed by the same questions, but because of their beliefs they end up having to make excuses for him.

Notice the significance is correctly placed upon your own lack of understanding. There are many books written on "the argument of evil," which you're describing here. No doubt at least one of them is very good. I don't know because the whole thing is child's play to me in it's simplicity, so I have no need to read on the subject.
 
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Faulty

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If human sin can therefore change animal behaviour then shouldn't this be testable under lab conditions - have any Christian scientists attempted this?

It was a single event, not an ongoing process, and it happened after the flood of Noah, not right after the fall.

The whole idea is silly. Mutations do not write new beneficial DNA code any more than a computer crash writes new beneficial programming code, and that is something observable under lab conditions.

So, what came first?
The worm?
The wasp?
The ability of the wasp to lay eggs at all?
The desire of the wasp to lay the eggs in the worm?
The ability of the wasp to inject their eggs in the worm?
The ability of the larvae to survive in the worm?
The inate knowledge of the larvae to eat away at the worm in such a way the worms life is preserved the longest?

Seems a little odd that all these things would "evolve" together, but of course they didn't, no matter how many people with degrees conferred from like-minded inmates write books and papers on the matter.

There is a warning in Luke 12:41-48, from Jesus, who lets us know that to whom much is given, much will be required. For some to come here only to be divisive and who receives the gospel and other biblical answers over and over, will be accountable for every bit of it on their judgment day. They are without excuse, having been given truth and rejecting it over and over. There is no benefit, only great harm, for those who do these things.
 
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Hakan101

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I didn't stop believing because of the people in the Church. No, I stopped believing because I found that the Bible made no sense to me logically. The more I read about evolution, science, etc, the more realised the Bible could not be right. Even as a very young Christian I struggled to accept the Garden of Eden story.

My "problem" is that I still want to believe in God, but I just can't seem to do so in a way that appeases my reason. I simply cannot accept many of the silly Bible stories (talking snakes, talking donkeys, miracles, etc).

Why do you still want to believe in God if he seems so illogical to you?
 
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oi_antz

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It's just one indication against a benevolent creator. The whole of nature is vicious. Have you ever watched a nature programme? Ever seen lions, cheetahs, etc, hunt and eat their prey; they don't die quickly - they get eaten slowly.
Notice that you are blaming God for what you don't like. Who you ought to blame is the humans who disobey God. The human was given a task to perform on earth:
28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”
But what has man turned his effort toward? Wealth and power, essentially greed. So while we are all running the rat race trying to ammas material goods, certain aspects of nature are left to run wild in ways that you and I don't like.

I want to show you some prophecy of the bible, maybe you have not read it yet, and keep in mind that God does know what the future holds so His words are reliable.
Isaiah 11:6-9
New Living Translation (NLT)
6 In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together;
the leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion,
and a little child will lead them all.
7 The cow will graze near the bear.
The cub and the calf will lie down together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
8 The baby will play safely near the hole of a cobra.
Yes, a little child will put its hand in a nest of deadly snakes without harm.
9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,
for as the waters fill the sea,
so the earth will be filled with people who know the Lord.
There is also another similar promise, this time by the mouth of Jesus:
Revelation 21
3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them.[a] 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”
The message from these passages is that God is indeed benevolent. The message you are giving me is that you prefer benevolence to violence. So I ask you the question, since violence is foreign to your nature:

What personality trait do you think violence arises from?
There surely must have been a better way to test Adam and Eve's capacity for free will.
My understanding of the story leads me to believe that it is our capacity for free will being tested. Adam and Eve are long gone, we can't dwell upon their mistakes for the rest of time. There is a saying "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it". All the stories in the bible are meant to give us insight and wisdom.

If you refuse to listen to the story, who do you blame for the lack of insight and wisdom?

Jesus promoted a clear message summarized as the golden rule, which He taught by repentance: learning how to conquer sin. The eventual result is to be a holy nation, but we don't see this happening to everyone's full capacity, and that is why sin reigns in our world.

We do have the capacity to tame nature and promote the golden rule throughout the world, but because of the weakness of the human nature, our efforts are not spent doing God's will, it is spent on self-serving ambitions. So much of the world's capacity is wasted by mankind's greed, that if Jesus was enthroned on everyone's heart the world would be transformed within a lifetime. It's a lot to ask for, I guess that is why the revelation shows angels getting involved and the saints being resurrected to government.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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It was a single event, not an ongoing process, and it happened after the flood of Noah, not right after the fall.

The whole idea is silly. Mutations do not write new beneficial DNA code any more than a computer crash writes new beneficial programming code, and that is something observable under lab conditions.

So, what came first?
The worm?
The wasp?
The ability of the wasp to lay eggs at all?
The desire of the wasp to lay the eggs in the worm?
The ability of the wasp to inject their eggs in the worm?
The ability of the larvae to survive in the worm?
The inate knowledge of the larvae to eat away at the worm in such a way the worms life is preserved the longest?

Seems a little odd that all these things would "evolve" together, but of course they didn't, no matter how many people with degrees conferred from like-minded inmates write books and papers on the matter.

I'm not sure you understand how evolution works. It is not like instant creation. Gradual changes happen over time, not instantly.

There is a warning in Luke 12:41-48, from Jesus, who lets us know that to whom much is given, much will be required. For some to come here only to be divisive and who receives the gospel and other biblical answers over and over, will be accountable for every bit of it on their judgment day. They are without excuse, having been given truth and rejecting it over and over. There is no benefit, only great harm, for those who do these things.

This is a rather elaborate way of telling me to shut up it seems.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Notice that you are blaming God for what you don't like. Who you ought to blame is the humans who disobey God. The human was given a task to perform on earth:

I'm not sure I can honestly and reasonably blame humans for the creation of the Ichneumonidae. Can you?
 
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oi_antz

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I'm not sure I can honestly and reasonably blame humans for the creation of the Ichneumonidae. Can you?
I concede 'no', with our present knowledge we can't blame humans for the creation of them, but did you read my post?

<< Answer please

Isn't it reasonable to expect that humankind should have already evolved to the stage when we could educate Ichneumonidae (wow) how to peacefully co-exist, or substitute it with another creature?

<< Answer please

So, if you don't mind, how about addressing what I said in detail?

<< No answer needed here, just quote the post and reply to what I asked you.

Also, this raises another good point. What do you think is impeding our evolution considering that God commanded us to subdue the earth?

<< Answer please
 
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