Let's talk about Ichneumonidae

[razeontherock]

We are each showing you our own perspective of the great picture, but what you are asking for is to see the whole picture for yourself. That is not something that we have authority to give, it is something you will need to ask for from God. According to Christianity, that means you are going to need to accept what God is telling you when you read the bible.

I have devoted over 1/2 my life to this "great picture" you speak of. I am by nature a big picture person, and G-d has freely spoken to me in many ways, including via Scripture as I learned how to read. I profess no ability to see this great picture, but what glimpses He has graciously afforded me are precious to me, as are the perspectives others can share with me, including yourself.

If you hate something about the bible and you prefer to disobey, then you will need to concede and hand the matter to Jesus

This is a GREAT perspective, that I wish more Christians would be honest with! Many times when something within the Bible strikes a nerve, people make up all sorts of stuff to assuage their discomfort. How much better would it be to just go to G-d and complain? David did so, and G-d commended him for it.

Mr Grumpy here is upset about some things in the OT. You know what? Many things in the OT are upsetting, to put it mildly. Such honesty is essential! Regardless of the circumstances of how the contents got there, i do think G-d ordains such things being included so we will get closer to Him. Correction: I KNOW as much.

I just wish I knew how to relate what He has shown me better, so as to help others navigate those very tricky waters. In all seriousness, I do think the best way is to start with the basics; i.e, John's Gospel - Rev inclusive, and only get to Torah much later.

I have quoted from my personal bible here as I think it's an easier interpretation to understand.

Agreed, that reads well. Context of the text is king, but allow me to put it back in the context of our (collective) discussion here, that nature is observably vicious. In most cases, animal species need to apply themselves to Biblical virtues to survive. Obedience to G-d is mandatory for survival: diligence, hard work, alertness. I have heard it preached from the pulpit that people are dumber than dogs because they will obey the voice of their master, while we tend to remain aloof, ignoring such simple things that even animals do wholeheartedly.

that means you really need that one-on-one relationship with God, who is able to satisfy your every need:
You are thirsty for living water, why not ask Jesus for it? Can't you see that it is a good thing?

Mr OP, there is great wisdom here, from this very new Christian. Can you not see your own "thirst?" Is it not possible, even likely, that the Lord is chastening you? That doesn't seem pleasant, but "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me." This lesson is much easier to learn when we humble ourselves before the Master's feet. There, His chastening amounts to just words. They sure can sting, by ripping out of our mind and chest everything we've held dear. Believe me I know, I've been through that process, more than once. Personally, I had to lose not only everything I had before I turned to the Lord, but my ability as well.

Words are FAR easier, even when they hurt! I cannot apologize that you and I have butted heads; you have experienced a godly type love from me that I would be wrong to repent from. Jesus spoke of a good man bringing out of his heart, things both new and old. You are honest about some "old things" within you, that need to go. That some of these came from within Church circles is not blasphemy, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I would say we have all experienced that, except .. well, Antz here hasn't

It's hard for him to enjoy that Blessing, but your testimony no doubt helps him to appreciate his freedom from such negativity. You shall know the Truth, and once you know it, then the Truth will set you free. This Truth will not come from my posts nor from any other, but from the great Light Himself, the Father of Lights

 

[razeontherock]

Basically, the atheist cannot have laws of logic because logic is part of the non-material non-physical world and the atheist does not believe in anything that is not material or physical. Laws of logic cannot exist in the atheist’s world, yet he uses them to try to reason. This is inconsistent. He is borrowing from the Christian worldview to argue against the Christian worldview. The atheist’s view cannot be rational because he uses things
(laws of logic) that cannot exist according to his profession.

This is great! You have verbalized thoughts I formed before I could speak. Thank you. Will you start a thread on this topic in our outreach section in CWR? E & M? Philosophy? There are many regular posters in each that NEED this. But first, a small item to iron out:

I see complaints all the time from atheists that God did not include their world view of naturalism in His word. First of all, it is imperative to realize that the OT ,for example, was written to a supernatural world view and that there was no naturalistic worldview to appeal to, there were no atheists in these cultures.

This can't be true. The Bible speaks of those who say / think there is no G-d. He devotes an awful lot of Scripture to the simple declaration that HE IS. Atheism is now the underwhelming minority; 4% - 20%, depending on who you talk to. I think it is a much safer assumption to conclude that this aspect of our society hasn't changed at all since Joshua.

 

[razeontherock]

The idea of a personal God is compelling, I won't deny that. And I suppose that is what draws me to Christianity. However, I find little reason to accept the Christian faith because it just doesn't "add up". I respect the fact that it clearly makes sense to you, and every other Christian here. But for me, it doesn't. The more I learn, the more questions I have. For example, let's just go back to the question in my OP - why would God create nature to be like it is when he claims to be a compassionate, benevolent God. I've heard Christians say many times that the glory of God can be observed in nature; I don't think these Christians realise just how violent and bloody the animal kingdom is. I keep getting bashed in this thread for not seeing things the way Christians would like me to see it.

You have the right to see things any way you want to, and draw any conclusions you wish to make. I will never wish for someone to see things the way I do; that would be undue influence. Appreciating one another's perspective is far superior! I thought that needed to be said.

I have addressed the question of your OP, and I still assert that G-d is compassionate, benevolent, merciful, and kind. I can also discuss, at length, instances where G-d was experienced as unkind, harsh, incomprehensible, and downright mean. I can discuss those properties both from Scripture, and first-hand experience. I have suffered great loss, due to choosing to follow Him. Yet those afflictions don't even deserve to be compared to the benefits I have already experienced!

So you'll notice I don't shy away from difficult issues, difficult situations, nor difficult people. And I make no apologies about it. Maybe G-d uses me in difficult circumstances to get back at me for the hard times I've given Him? I dunno, and I'm not about to worry about any of that.

You have a difficult issue on your plate here, I do not pretend to make it easy, nor do i pretend to have all the answers. Are you prepared to handle the truth?

 

[oi_antz]

Thanks Ray, I love it when you spend time on the details, we have a truly valuable resource in you. I especially like what you said about treasuring the glimpses we get of the big picture.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

This is great! You have verbalized thoughts I formed before I could speak. Thank you. Will you start a thread on this topic in our outreach section in CWR? E & M? Philosophy? There are many regular posters in each that NEED this. But first, a small item to iron out:

I'm honestly not smart enough to debate the philosophy of science and the existence of God. Golgotha stated something along the lines of "logic comes from God and therefore atheists can't understand it and can't argue from a logical standpoint". I've read his post several times now and it makes no sense to me. If God is logical why doesn't he appeal directly to our reason rather than requiring blind faith? Believe in God would then become the logical norm and supernatural laws would then be verifiable and easy to understand rather than esoterically based on faith. Surely this would be a better system; especially considering our eternal salvation depends on it. If God was desperate enough, in order to obtain our salvation, to essentially kill himself on a cross, then surely he would do something to appeal to us on a more reasonable, logic level rather than simply believing what someone wrote 2000 years ago?

I think I remember seeing a "why faith" thread here in Exploring Christianity a while back. I might just dig that up sometime rather than rehash the same debate here again.

This can't be true. The Bible speaks of those who say / think there is no G-d. He devotes an awful lot of Scripture to the simple declaration that HE IS. Atheism is now the underwhelming minority; 4% - 20%, depending on who you talk to. I think it is a much safer assumption to conclude that this aspect of our society hasn't changed at all since Joshua.

In America atheism stands at around 15% of the population (according to one survey I read a few months ago, can't remember where now). The vast majority of Americans are Christian, with some small percentages of Muslims and other faiths. Europe is different though. Church numbers are declining dramatically (this may have something to do with the recent Catholic child abuse scandals though) and more people are professing atheism. Spain and Italy are very Catholic countries though. Overall, I would speculate that Christianity is declining in Europe as a whole and is pretty much stagnant in the US. I'll have to google some demographic info sometime.

I think I'd hate to be an atheist in a Christian majority country. I'd probably end up paying lip service and keeping quite about my atheism. It took a while before I "came out" to my parents, and even then all I said was that I was "having doubts". They still don't know I'm an atheist. I've read a lot of unfortunate stories of atheists and gay people being kicked out of jobs or kicked out of their homes and disowned by their families for "coming out" as non-believers (or gay). Of course, it works both ways - Christians endure a lot of crap from atheists when they (Christians) are in the minority. School was hell for me when I was a Christian teenager. One guy in particular had it in for me in my first high school (we moved about a lot) once he found out I was a Christian. I'm not quite sure what he said, but within a few days of him finding out none of my circle of friends talked to me again. So I suppose I can appreciate both sides of the fence. Atheists and Christians often fight over the moral high ground but, to be honest, I think they're just about the same really.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

You have a difficult issue on your plate here, I do not pretend to make it easy, nor do i pretend to have all the answers. Are you prepared to handle the truth?

The truth of my current position is that I struggle to see God as good. When I was a Christian I glossed over most of the violence and gore in the OT because, well, I'm not sure. But then I opened my eyes to it all and I just stopped "liking" God. I still believed he was God and he had the right to do whatever he wanted, but I was disgusted by some of his actions.

Some Christians believe a lot of the Old Testament is just stories (not to be treated in an historical-literal sense). When I was a Christian I read the Bible literally. I took every word of it as truth - literal fact. I laughed at evolutionists, scientists and the ungodly scum of this world. Now, having read about evolution for myself I just cannot deny that it makes sense. I still have questions about it but I have a load of books on my reading list to get through.

I'm just one of those people who have to know something in its entirety and I won't stop until I do. Or until I'm satisfied that I have enough jigsaw pieces to fill out as much of the picture as I can. I've got some bashing on these forums for being a fraud and not being sincere in my search for God. I think the fact that I'm here asking questions should prove the opposite. If I wasn't honestly searching for the "truth" then I wouldn't be wasting my time on an internet forum.

Where I'm at right now is that I see the Bible as incomplete and presenting a disparate view of God. The God of the OT doesn't appeal to me at all. I find him frighteningly violent and when I look at the natural world (going back to my OP again) this just confirms this (if the creation story is to be believed over evolution). Evolution is more appealing to me because it really negates this whole question. I suppose the question then becomes whether the creation story is to be taken literally (as described in Genesis), or whether it is a jumbled up, but somehow God-inspired, story of our early beginnings, or some story that can be applied morally.

If it becomes a question of not picking and choosing which parts of the Bible I can stomach... well, then I'm stumped. Could I honestly, in good conscience, worship a God as described in the OT? Right now, I'm not really sure I could. I certainly couldn't defend him to atheists in the way William Lane Craig does.

I'm not meaning to offend anyone, although I keep seeming to, but it's not a deliberate intention. These are just the questions I'm struggling with right now and this forum is the only place I have to ask them. There are other forums, but many of them are biased in favour of atheists and sceptics.

 

[steve_bakr]

The truth of my current position is that I struggle to see God as good. When I was a Christian I glossed over most of the violence and gore in the OT because, well, I'm not sure. But then I opened my eyes to it all and I just stopped "liking" God. I still believed he was God and he had the right to do whatever he wanted, but I was disgusted by some of his actions.

Some Christians believe a lot of the Old Testament is just stories (not to be treated in an historical-literal sense). When I was a Christian I read the Bible literally. I took every word of it as truth - literal fact. I laughed at evolutionists, scientists and the ungodly scum of this world. Now, having read about evolution for myself I just cannot deny that it makes sense. I still have questions about it but I have a load of books on my reading list to get through.

I'm just one of those people who have to know something in its entirety and I won't stop until I do. Or until I'm satisfied that I have enough jigsaw pieces to fill out as much of the picture as I can. I've got some bashing on these forums for being a fraud and not being sincere in my search for God. I think the fact that I'm here asking questions should prove the opposite. If I wasn't honestly searching for the "truth" then I wouldn't be wasting my time on an internet forum.

Where I'm at right now is that I see the Bible as incomplete and presenting a disparate view of God. The God of the OT doesn't appeal to me at all. I find him frighteningly violent and when I look at the natural world (going back to my OP again) this just confirms this (if the creation story is to be believed over evolution). Evolution is more appealing to me because it really negates this whole question. I suppose the question then becomes whether the creation story is to be taken literally (as described in Genesis), or whether it is a jumbled up, but somehow God-inspired, story of our early beginnings, or some story that can be applied morally.

If it becomes a question of not picking and choosing which parts of the Bible I can stomach... well, then I'm stumped. Could I honestly, in good conscience, worship a God as described in the OT? Right now, I'm not really sure I could. I certainly couldn't defend him to atheists in the way William Lane Craig does.

I'm not meaning to offend anyone, although I keep seeming to, but it's not a deliberate intention. These are just the questions I'm struggling with right now and this forum is the only place I have to ask them. There are other forums, but many of them are biased in favour of atheists and sceptics.

Grumpy Old Man,

I am an old man, too!

I appreciate where you are and particularly with your aversion to some of the Old Testament incidents. The first time I read these I was literally aghast ofter having read the New Testament first.

The way I view the Bible today is as the evolution of man's relatioship with God and understanding of God. Rather than God ordaining certain massacres, rather I believe that the Israelites only believed that such massacres were commanded or approved by God. It was a reflection of their primitive, tribal view of God.

As the Bible progresses beyond those ancient events, we come to the spiritual Psalms and man's redemption through Jesus Christ. We come to the New Testament understanding of God.

This is why Catholics call the Bible narrative Salvation History. Does that mean that God has changed? No, rather, it is man's understanding of God that has evolved.

All in all, we are called to submit to God's will and to enjoy his presence in us and in others. I suggest that you reread the Psalms (in the Grail translation if possible).

Reading the Psalms show us that it is only human to question God to a point--ie.., Why are you allowing these circumstances? Why are you taking so long in coming to my aid? At one point the Psalmist invokes God to "Rise up," "Raise your hand."
But you notice that almost every such Psalm ends in praise and affirmation of God.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[razeontherock]

If God is logical why doesn't he appeal directly to our reason rather than requiring blind faith?

Well this is a very good question, in that it uncovers more things you need to examine, to get rid of what is bad, and keep what is good.

No doubt you really did pick up the idea you express here, about Faith being blind, from someone or something in a position of authority in your life at the time? And now when you examine that, it just does NOT stand up to scrutiny!

And you are correct

Congratulations! You are gaining your freedom. It is not an easy process, nor did the Lord say it would be. You are a "freedom fighter." Even in the truest sense of the word that Islam uses the word "jihad." You see, this is a universal experience we all must go through, to make any progress towards God Almighty, and towards His Truth. It is His Way. It is sometimes difficult, but we should be thankful it is not as cruel as what the caterpillars of your OP have to go through.

So, be very firmly convinced in your mind that whatever it is that Jesus might be referring to when He talks about Faith, or even just "believe," it is NOT blind! He does not drive us from behind, the way a slave driver with a whip might. He leads us from the front, where we can SEE Him. He never asks us to do anything He hasn't already done, and when it seems impossible, He reassures us via the fact that what He did was far more difficult, and it still turned out ok anyway.

This is the "Faith of Abraham," and it does seem that you find yourself caught in the middle of it. Abe had to leave behind everything he knew, trusted, and could rely on. He didn't know exactly where he was going or even what he was looking for, but he did know what was most important! Abraham's Faith was not blind, and your Good Shepherd is not so cruel as to blind you and then expect you to walk. As we grope about and attempt merely to turn towards Him, we find He is not at all cruel but kind, Loving, and mighty.

May He make His face shine upon you, so you will be able to perceive when you actually turn towards Him, and come to know Him at your own pace, via His guidance.

surely he would do something to appeal to us on a more reasonable, logic level rather than simply believing what someone wrote 2000 years ago?

Again, another excellent question! Christianity is not a dead religion, following a dusty book. We do have the picture of a desert crossing at the beginning of our "journey," and the very grave warning that we may die during it. (I refer to the Exodus, which is a Spiritual roadmap for us today) So your caterpillar in the OP is not so unusual!

Instead we have a risen and Living Savior, who acts as our Great High Priest, (might not mean much to you yet) and also our defense attorney.

It is HIM we appeal to, and whom we learn to condition our hearts and minds so that He becomes appealing to US. This part is often left out of Christian teaching, but it is the big thing we are to concentrate on, and is the "why" of sin being bad. (Notice this can be entirely distinct from morality)

We also have other believers, not only in our midst but all throughout the Church age. Every one of them can "speak" to us in a very real way, which is an amazing thing in itself.

So please do look at us as voices in your desert, trying to help you cross it before you die. The Hebrews spent 40 years there until they were all dead. Then they found it was merely a 3 day's journey! What made the difference? They finally got ready to go. And it was the next generation!

There is a real process of "re-generation," this story speaks of it, and the key is ... the ROCK. It flowed with water, and it followed them. Obviously it was alive. It has been found, you know. Or rather, physical evidence of it. And yet now, we are not in the cruel environment of the physically harsh reality of that desert crossing. These things are Spiritual reality to us, whereby we can gain our sight instead of stumbling around in the dark as if blind, but we are "saved" from the physical effects. This is the Rock this Ray is on, hence my username. You can consider the Old Covenant to be that caterpillar in your OP, and the New Covenant to be those lucky caterpillars that didn't get infected with wasp larvae, but have metamorphosized into butterflies!

Just in case you think I'm a clever wordsmith, these are concepts stated directly in Scripture, in those terms. This re-generation I spoke of, which is to be as natural to us as drinking water, is the metamorphosis from caterpillar / worm in danger of being eaten alive, to beautiful butterfly which can soar towards heaven. False teaching, bad thinking, etc is to be the larvae / leaven. So when I have had to be harsh with you, realize it was to brush away larvae trying to infect you. And I can offer you no commensurate kindness, because the growth you needs comes from within your own cocoon! Prayer and Bible reading. Or should I say, prayerful Bible reading?

Atheists and Christians often fight over the moral high ground but, to be honest, I think they're just about the same really.

It is true, that on a moral basis, Christianity does not make us supermen. The daily grind is a very real thing before G-d ...

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On

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This thread has been cleaned to remove some flaming posts.
Please address the post rather than the poster.

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[razeontherock]

Now, having read about evolution for myself I just cannot deny that it makes sense.

I agree. I put it, that the theory is plausible, it belongs in our educational systems because it's a good way to teach a person how to think in organized fashion, and there are things that are concretely knowable that are just plain and simple good to know. I would like to see the stance of what's presented as "fact" softened a bit to better reflect reality, and also for artist sketches and fossil presentations to have more integrity about presenting what was actually found, vs what is artistic contribution.

I'm just one of those people who have to know something in its entirety and I won't stop until I do. Or until I'm satisfied that I have enough jigsaw pieces to fill out as much of the picture as I can. I've got some bashing on these forums for being a fraud and not being sincere in my search for God. I think the fact that I'm here asking questions should prove the opposite. If I wasn't honestly searching for the "truth" then I wouldn't be wasting my time on an internet forum.

I want to make sure you realize a few things about my contributions:

1) I can be as grumpy as anyone

2) I do indeed expect there to be a driving force within you to search for Truth on your own. This means I will readily present a challenge, knowing myself how difficult it is! When someone says something I might say is a little off and therefore they no longer care to pursue the Truth, I recognize this is shallow, and a guilt trip. An individual either wants to know, or they don't. I would hope it shows, that I speak from the position of one who has wanted to know about Spiritual reality for quite some time, and has not compromised with social corruption on the matter.

3) I humble myself to recognize I cannot reveal what G-d has shown me. Sometimes the best I can do is grunt and point

Where I'm at right now is that I see the Bible as incomplete and presenting a disparate view of God.

I agree! Hopefully at some point, you will be able to put disparate pieces together, but we REALLY have to keep the human habit of closure in check!!

The God of the OT doesn't appeal to me at all. I find him frighteningly violent and when I look at the natural world (going back to my OP again) this just confirms this (if the creation story is to be believed over evolution). Evolution is more appealing to me because it really negates this whole question. I suppose the question then becomes whether the creation story is to be taken literally (as described in Genesis), or whether it is a jumbled up, but somehow God-inspired, story of our early beginnings, or some story that can be applied morally.

I have said it before and it's still true: master the NT before messing with much of the OT, beyond Psalms and Proverbs. Even some of the Psalms get troublesome! Look at the early chapters of Genesis the way the original audience did, via the process of "hermeneutics:" G-d declared Himself to be above the gods of the neighboring cultures. Period. this results in something called "henotheism, as opposed to monotheism or pantheism. I believe Christianity is still henotheistic, as well as panentheistic.

Could I honestly, in good conscience, worship a God as described in the OT?
These are just the questions I'm struggling with right now and this forum is the only place I have to ask them.

Thank you for your sincerity! My best advice is already above, and I urge you to familiarize yourself with the Father as Jesus reveals Him in His own words. Don't forget those recorded in Revelation! Do you have access to a "red letter edition" of the Bible? Is there such a thing online? I have a version that contains nothing but the words of Jesus ...

Blessings to you in your continued search for Truth. Don't settle for what man may spoon feed you, but get it straight from the Source!!

 

[Ellwood3]

Imagine that I could answer your question about Ichneumon wasps. I could tell you, in details, exactly how, genetically and also in terms of the ecology, how the fall led to wasps laying eggs inside what, to them, might "seem" to them (if something could "seem" to them) to be a mighty good habitat for their eggs--safe and warm and full of food.

It's a horror to us, right? So why not speak of other horrors? Let's say I explain this horror, about the wasps--will you then explore the existence of God using another approach?

Well. They ARE icky, aren't they?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oGTCyQp67A