• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

What is God?

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Hi,

What is God? Obviously 'He' isn't a man in the sky, but I want to know to what extent is God person-like. Is God more like a force; a value, sort of like Plato's form of the Good; or is God actually mind-like and can make choices? I know alot of Christians would say God is mind like, but I find that hard to make sense of considering how distant God seems. Maybe God is just an ideal we should try to copy but can never come in contact with.

Paradoxum x
 

catzetier

Newbie
Jul 29, 2011
201
4
✟22,966.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God is person-like. He can make choices, and he wants a relationship with us. If He were just a mind, He wouldn't want a relationship. God may seem distant because it takes two people to have a relationship, and if we choose to go away He lets us. That's seen in the Bible - King Saul, Adam and Eve...

If you want a more skilful and in-depth answer... have you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity"? That does a really good job of explaining it - a far better job than I can do.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
God is person-like. He can make choices, and he wants a relationship with us. If He were just a mind, He wouldn't want a relationship. God may seem distant because it takes two people to have a relationship, and if we choose to go away He lets us. That's seen in the Bible - King Saul, Adam and Eve...

If you want a more skilful and in-depth answer... have you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity"? That does a really good job of explaining it - a far better job than I can do.

Thanks. I have read other of his books but not that one yet.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hi,

What is God?
God describes Himself as the great I am, The alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end.

Obviously 'He' isn't a man in the sky, but I want to know to what extent is God person-like.
Perhaps it would be more correct to ask how much are we "God like." Or what qualities do we share with God?

Is God more like a force; a value, sort of like Plato's form of the Good; or is God actually mind-like and can make choices? I know alot of Christians would say God is mind like, but I find that hard to make sense of considering how distant God seems.
So if God is not like your mind or your understanding of "mind like" He can not exist?

Maybe God is just an ideal we should try to copy but can never come in contact with.
That is an option for some of us.
 
Upvote 0

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,046
4,454
✟209,452.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married
In the Orthodox Church- we apply something calling apophatic theology (negative theology)- to describe God by saying what God isn't instead of what God is. We believe that God's essence is unknowable and ineffable. However, we can participate in God's energies.

Examples:
No one has seen or can see God (John 1:18).
He lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
His ways are unsearchable and unfathomable (Job 11:7-8; Romans 11:33-36).

Because of this- in order for us to participate in the energies of God/attain salvation- we need Christ (very God of very God- both fully God and fully man). We can know God via the person of Christ. It is a pious opinion that even had sin not entered the world, we still would have need of Christ.

Salvation happened in the past. Via the incarnation (specifically the hypostatic union), it became possible for us to attain theosis. To one in the Church (a Christian), we are being saved. If we persevere, we will be saved in the future. Those in the Church are part of the body of Christ and have the Holy Trinity living in them. Through the life of the Church, the Holy Mysteries, and the power of the Holy Spirit, we are empowered to do good works. Anyone living out their life in the Church will be changed/transfigured. This is only possible through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. We must daily pick up our cross and follow Him. Christ’s suffering death on the cross and resurrection made it possible for us to now have a way through suffering and a way to reconcile ourselves to God (abolishing sin and death) through his human nature. Christ’s ultimate act of suffering love gives us His saving companionship and grace. We can literally be baptized into Christ as part of His body (Church/Israel). Through our life in the Church, the ultimate hospital for sinners, we hope to one day attain theosis and participate in the divine energies of God.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,352
Winnipeg
✟251,568.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Hi,

What is God? Obviously 'He' isn't a man in the sky, but I want to know to what extent is God person-like.

Well, the Bible reveals that God is personal, omnipotent, unchanging, omniscient, and transcendent to time, space and matter. "God is a Spirit" (Jn. 4:24) Scripture says. He is not flesh and bone as are you and I.

Is God more like a force; a value, sort of like Plato's form of the Good; or is God actually mind-like and can make choices? I know alot of Christians would say God is mind like, but I find that hard to make sense of considering how distant God seems.

God only seems distant to those who are living far outside of His will.

I do think God is more like a Mind than any material thing. In fact, God fits the concept of the Ultimate Mind quite well, which is why Christian philosophers sometimes refer to Him this way.

Maybe God is just an ideal we should try to copy but can never come in contact with.

I have spoken with Him several times today. We come into contact constantly. :)

Selah.
 
Upvote 0

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,046
4,454
✟209,452.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married
seashale76, what's a "hypostatic union"? I figured out it's something to do with the Trinity (I love Wikipedia), but beyond that I got lost.

It just means that Christ is fully God and fully man.
 
Upvote 0

Grumpy Old Man

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2011
647
24
UK
✟1,001.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Examples:
No one has seen or can see God (John 1:18).
He lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
His ways are unsearchable and unfathomable (Job 11:7-8; Romans 11:33-36).

Adam and Eve saw God because he walked in the Garden and chatted to them. Moses also saw God. Also, if God's ways are unsearchable and unfathomable how are we to seek him? Why bother if we can't understand him, or even find him? If humans can understand particle physics then surely we are capable of fathoming the alleged creator of the universe.
 
Upvote 0

CryptoLutheran

Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman
Sep 13, 2010
3,015
391
Pacific Northwest
✟27,709.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi,

What is God? Obviously 'He' isn't a man in the sky, but I want to know to what extent is God person-like. Is God more like a force; a value, sort of like Plato's form of the Good; or is God actually mind-like and can make choices? I know alot of Christians would say God is mind like, but I find that hard to make sense of considering how distant God seems. Maybe God is just an ideal we should try to copy but can never come in contact with.

Paradoxum x

In Christian thought we can only say that God is God. It's a category of being wholly unique unto itself. To borrow Tillich's language God is Being-itself or "Ground of Being"; i.e. it is less appropriate to speak of God as "a being" than to speak of God as Being or Being-beyond-being.

We speak of God's being or nature as being ineffable, wholly unknowable. God is "ayah asher ayah" ("I am that I am" or "I will be what I will be").

Thus we can't say God is like anything. God is only like God, God is wholly unique and wholly other in what He is.

However, we can experience God or come to know God in His Energies (i.e. His Acts and/or Activity). Most importantly we can come to know what God is like and who God is by His Revelation of Himself in and through Jesus who makes God known to us.

Catholic priest and theologian, Fr. Herbert McCabe puts it this way:

"Jesus is God’s word, God’s idea of God, how God understands himself. He is how-God-understands-himself become a part of our human history, become human, become the first really thoroughly human part of our history [...] In Jesus, says the Christian, we do not understand God but we can watch God understanding himself. God’s understanding of God is that he throws himself away in love, that he keeps nothing back for himself." - Herbert McCabe, God Still Matters

To phrase it another way, in Jesus we ultimately see that God is Jesus-like. God's idea of God, God's understanding of Himself is revealed in Jesus and thus we can come to know God as He knows Himself in and through Jesus and revealed in and through Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: catzetier
Upvote 0

CryptoLutheran

Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman
Sep 13, 2010
3,015
391
Pacific Northwest
✟27,709.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
seashale76, what's a "hypostatic union"? I figured out it's something to do with the Trinity (I love Wikipedia), but beyond that I got lost.

To expand on what Seashale said, the Hypostatic Union is the historic Christian teaching that in the one Person (Hypostasis) of Jesus is the full union of Deity and humanity without any confusion of the two natures and without any separation (Jesus is always Jesus, both human and Divine, fully both always and forever). The historic Christian confession about this is the Definition of Chalcedon which goes into this with more detail.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,046
4,454
✟209,452.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Adam and Eve saw God because he walked in the Garden and chatted to them. Moses also saw God. Also, if God's ways are unsearchable and unfathomable how are we to seek him? Why bother if we can't understand him, or even find him? If humans can understand particle physics then surely we are capable of fathoming the alleged creator of the universe.
God allowed them to see what they could. They did not see God in a physical body. Being able to endure seeing the divine light of God- even after being near that, Moses had to wear a veil because he was too much for those around him to bear for a while. Adam and Eve were not born in a state of theosis. You asked why bother seeking God- did you read the rest of what I wrote? Christ is God. We can know God via Christ (who is fully God and fully man).
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
So if God is not like your mind or your understanding of "mind like" He can not exist?

That isn't what I said. I'm saying I don't understand and I don't know if anyone else does.


In the Orthodox Church- we apply something calling apophatic theology (negative theology)- to describe God by saying what God isn't instead of what God is. We believe that God's essence is unknowable and ineffable. However, we can participate in God's energies.

Would I be right in thinking this can also be called 'via negativa'? When I first learnt about it I dismissed it as saying too little. But now the more I learn the less I know, especially about God. I find the Orthodox Church interesting and really quite foreign from the Christianity I was brought up in, but I like what little I know of it. I just have the horrible feeling that all of Christianity doesn't refer to a real existent God.......

Because of this- in order for us to participate in the energies of God/attain salvation- we need Christ (very God of very God- both fully God and fully man). We can know God via the person of Christ. It is a pious opinion that even had sin not entered the world, we still would have need of Christ.

Why do we need Christ? I know the Western answer, but what is the Orthodox? I understand the need for participation in God, but why is a God man necessary. Couldn't Christ just be a guiding light?

Salvation happened in the past. Via the incarnation (specifically the hypostatic union), it became possible for us to attain theosis. To one in the Church (a Christian), we are being saved. If we persevere, we will be saved in the future.

You would say salvation is made possible by the incarnation right? Again why is the needed when people before Christ were saved/being saved? Also what do you mean if we persevere? Am I in danger of hell, is there any hope beyond the grave? Is salvation by accepting a number of doctrines, such as Jesus' divinity?

God only seems distant to those who are living far outside of His will.

I have spoken with Him several times today. We come into contact constantly. :)

Its not my fault. I once loved God and would have said I would have died for my faith. I prayed everyday, but I haven't consistently felt Him in 2 years and I don't even think to pray now. It is very sad in some ways, but there is nothing I can do to stop falling.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
In Christian thought we can only say that God is God. It's a category of being wholly unique unto itself. To borrow Tillich's language God is Being-itself or "Ground of Being"; i.e. it is less appropriate to speak of God as "a being" than to speak of God as Being or Being-beyond-being.

Sorry I misspoke, this is also how I conceive of God, as the Ground of Being.

However, we can experience God or come to know God in His Energies (i.e. His Acts and/or Activity). Most importantly we can come to know what God is like and who God is by His Revelation of Himself in and through Jesus who makes God known to us.

You are the second person to speak of God's Energies in this thread, which is surprising because I thought I had heard most commonly used words in theology.

Tell me, do you think God is personal, even if He is ineffable? Does He care about me and know I exist? Does God exist in a way that matters? I know Jesus is a moral light and I wish He is Love incarnate, but I don't know if I can believe it anymore.

Catholic priest and theologian, Fr. Herbert McCabe puts it this way:

"Jesus is God’s word, God’s idea of God, how God understands himself. He is how-God-understands-himself become a part of our human history, become human, become the first really thoroughly human part of our history [...] In Jesus, says the Christian, we do not understand God but we can watch God understanding himself. God’s understanding of God is that he throws himself away in love, that he keeps nothing back for himself." - Herbert McCabe, God Still Matters

That is lovely, and it always pulls my heart strings when people talk of the self giving love of God in Christ. I just don't know if it is true. I don't want philosophical arguments though, I just want something that holds up true in the age of science and reason.

To phrase it another way, in Jesus we ultimately see that God is Jesus-like. God's idea of God, God's understanding of Himself is revealed in Jesus and thus we can come to know God as He knows Himself in and through Jesus and revealed in and through Jesus.

I hope God is Jesus-like.
 
Upvote 0

leftrightleftrightleft

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2009
2,644
363
Canada
✟37,986.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I like to think of God as "The Source". The source of my being, the source of my consciousness, the source of the universe, the source of love, the source of morals, the source of scientific laws, the source of music, the source of life. He is the ultimate Cause running through both the objective universe "out there" as well as my subjective universe "in here".

I don't think God can be fully understood by a finite mind, but pieces of God's nature can be experienced throughout one's life in "ah ha" moments of revelation, moving moments while listening to music, in intense moments at the loss of a loved one, in the joy of standing on top of a mountain, in the quiet solitude of prayer and meditation.

Like you, Paradoxum, I am very intrigued and love a lot of the Christian language surrounding Jesus' divinity, but I am not convicted of it because I have never felt the need to include Jesus' divinity in any of my God experiences or philosophical musings. I do however think that the morality that Jesus lays out is certainly a piece of the puzzle and should not be ignored.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
For me god is science. He is the universe itself, and through the study of the natural sciences we are able to understand it, and through that the world around us.

Is this any different from a naturalistic understanding of the Universe?

I like to think of God as "The Source". The source of my being, the source of my consciousness, the source of the universe, the source of love, the source of morals, the source of scientific laws, the source of music, the source of life. He is the ultimate Cause running through both the objective universe "out there" as well as my subjective universe "in here".

I think 'The Source' is as interesting way of referring to God.

I don't think God can be fully understood by a finite mind, but pieces of God's nature can be experienced throughout one's life in "ah ha" moments of revelation, moving moments while listening to music, in intense moments at the loss of a loved one, in the joy of standing on top of a mountain, in the quiet solitude of prayer and meditation.

How do we know these feelings are God and not just psychology and instinct?

Like you, Paradoxum, I am very intrigued and love a lot of the Christian language surrounding Jesus' divinity, but I am not convicted of it because I have never felt the need to include Jesus' divinity in any of my God experiences or philosophical musings. I do however think that the morality that Jesus lays out is certainly a piece of the puzzle and should not be ignored.

I would be happy to call Jesus 'Lord' if I learnt a version of theology that is consistent with the modern/post-modern world, but I doubt I could ever mean it like I did as a teenager. Thanks for your reply.
 
Upvote 0

CryptoLutheran

Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman
Sep 13, 2010
3,015
391
Pacific Northwest
✟27,709.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sorry I misspoke, this is also how I conceive of God, as the Ground of Being.

You are the second person to speak of God's Energies in this thread, which is surprising because I thought I had heard most commonly used words in theology.

It's far more common in Eastern Orthodox theology due to the theological work of St. Gregory Palamas, his chief opponent was Barlaam of Calabria, an Italian who joined the Orthodox Church and had been trained in Western Scholasticism. Gregory's theology triumphed in the East and the crucial distinction between God's Essence and Energies, and the Orthodox understanding of our knowing God in His Energies (though not in His Essence) remains a crucial aspect of Orthodox theology and spirituality.

Tell me, do you think God is personal, even if He is ineffable? Does He care about me and know I exist? Does God exist in a way that matters?
I definitely believe God is personal, though I do not mean that in any anthropological sense. Indeed, at the heart of traditional Christian theology is God as Trinity. God's "Personhood" is simultaneously the Three Hypostases of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. What this means is that God's very Being is ontological relationship, ontological communion, ontological love. When St. John in his epistle says, "God is love" the Trinitarian understanding expands upon this to speak of God's Being as being God-always-loving-another; i.e. the Father always love the Son, the Son always loves the Father, the Spirit always loves the Father (et al). God as ontological relationship, ontological love is at the core of God as God is. We speak of the perichoresis of the Trinity, the "inter-penetration" as it is usually referred to; however the Greek word is far more robust, it is the active movement, the rhythm and dance of the Trinity. There is a Movement, the rhythm or dance of the Three perfectly moving, being, existing and sharing--loving--all within the undivided and one Being: God.

What that means is that to speak of God as love and as loving means that God has always been loving, and it has always been a love that goes out to another; that same love goes out to His creatures, to us. Thus when we say that God loves us, we are speaking of that same love God has in Himself; and ultimately our intimate participation in the same Triune love.

I know Jesus is a moral light and I wish He is Love incarnate, but I don't know if I can believe it anymore.
I don't know if anyone will be able to convince you. Nor will I necessarily try and convince you; the best I can do is speak of my own theology, my own convictions, as well as my own experiences. I can only say that I receive them by faith, and perhaps in many cases that probably means believing in something because I want to believe in it. Faith isn't something anyone can give you, though hopefully you'll at least find these discussions rewarding in some fashion.

That is lovely, and it always pulls my heart strings when people talk of the self giving love of God in Christ. I just don't know if it is true. I don't want philosophical arguments though, I just want something that holds up true in the age of science and reason.
That is largely going to depend on whether one assumes a rather absolutist empiricist and/or rationalist view. Is the universe always and entirely rational? Is the only reality an empirical one?

I don't believe that the universe is entirely or only rational, or that the only reality is empirical and observable. This doesn't mean that we have to relinquish our reason and critical thinking skills, but at least for me it is about being open and willing to participate in the world of faith. I've reconciled these things for myself in a way that I am satisfied with. Most of what I believe is pretty absurd, it is not always or usually all that rational, and I accept things as true which have no empirical, observant proof or evidence behind them--this is something I've learned to be comfortable with, as long as I don't act snooty or become a jerk toward others about it.

I hope God is Jesus-like.
As do I.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

elman

elman
Dec 19, 2003
28,949
451
85
Texas
✟54,197.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Isn't this Pantheism rather than Deism?
I don't see saying the creation or the universe is God as being Pantheism. I may be incorrect, but I see it as simply saying there is no Creator and what you see is all the reality there is.
 
Upvote 0