What is God?

[Tzaousios]

I don't see saying the creation or the universe is God as being Pantheism. I may be incorrect, but I see it as simply saying there is no Creator and what you see is all the reality there is.

Careful, Elman, you are very close to having to admit your theology is wrong. James 3:2.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

How do we know these feelings are God and not just psychology and instinct?

Naturalism and materialistic philosophy have basically attributed a physical cause for any human experience. Evolutionary biology, neuroscience, social psychology and psychology are the four fields of science that can give a cause to any effect in human experience.

So I could if I wanted, attribute physical causes such as brain chemistry and evolution to my various experiences and states of consciousness. But I do not believe such things adequately truly describe all facets of the subjective experience while I am experiencing it--as in, the moment I consciously consider the cause of my experience is the moment the experience disappears. It also does not seem reasonable to put total faith in science's descriptions of reality (of which it potentially only describes 'physical' aspects) because science is grounded in functionalism and model-making rather than absolute truths.

I ultimately have a conviction of God's existence that I cannot justify logically, but the idea of God's existence seems to explain more of human experience and our universe than pure naturalism.

 

[elman]

Careful, Elman, you are very close to having to admit your theology is wrong. James 3:2.

I don't see the connection. I have always admitted that my theology just like everyone elses including yours is wrong.

 

[Tzaousios]

I don't see the connection. I have always admitted that my theology just like everyone elses including yours is wrong.

No, you always declare how everyone else's is specifically wrong, but fail to provide any specific details as to how yours is wrong. Why is that?

 

[Paradoxum]

No, you always declare how everyone else's is specifically wrong, but fail to provide any specific details as to how yours is wrong. Why is that?

Think about it. Why might someone might say their understanding is probably wrong but not detail how?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

'God is love.'
- St. John the Evangelist

 

[razeontherock]

Tell me, do you think God is personal, even if He is ineffable? Does He care about me and know I exist? Does God exist in a way that matters? I know Jesus is a moral light and I wish He is Love incarnate, but I don't know if I can believe it anymore.

My heart breaks reading your words. Please allow me to point out, that you highlight the need to be part of a good Church. Much moreso, here you answer your own question, "why is a God man necessary?" But I fear that would be too much all at once. Let's start with how being an active part of a good Church would bring you face to face with "Love incarnate," first.

That is lovely, and it always pulls my heart strings when people talk of the self giving love of God in Christ. I just don't know if it is true. I don't want philosophical arguments though, I just want something that holds up true in the age of science and reason.

The best evidence we have, does not do what you're asking for here. countless medical miracles that have been documented, and atheists will brush them all away with the wave of a hand. "Without Faith, it is impossible to please God." God is not a philosophical argument, nor a concept. His Kingdom is not in word, but in Power!

I hope God is Jesus-like.

If you'll permit me to paraphrase, she who has this hope, will never be put to shame And this is perhaps the most recognizable reason we need a "God man;" so we can know the Father ...

 

[razeontherock]

How do we know these feelings are God and not just psychology and instinct?

This is what the Bible is for.

I would be happy to call Jesus 'Lord' if I learnt a version of theology that is consistent with the modern/post-modern world, but I doubt I could ever mean it like I did as a teenager. Thanks for your reply.

I hope you would not be happy with a version that has a form of godliness, but denies it's power. The greatness of the Gospel is that "heaven is above earth;" i.e., Christ is Lord, OF ALL. When you see creation bow before Jesus, even though He has humbled Himself to dwell in you, you are forced to realize this does not conform to a modern / post-modern world. (Sure is a rush though!)

 

[razeontherock]

'God is love.'
- St. John the Evangelist

Out of all the great answers in this wonderful thread, this is the best! (Hi Walter) Let me just add this is also John the theologian, John the Disciple whom Jesus Loved, and John the Revelator. I'm kinda partial to John lately

 

[Paradoxum]

My heart breaks reading your words. Please allow me to point out, that you highlight the need to be part of a good Church.

What do you call a good church? I seem to be disillusioned about finding a church where the pastor/priest has an understanding of the world that is more true to reality than my own. I am only used to evangelical charismatic churches and though my pastor was a great man and knowledgeable about faith, I need someone who also knows reason and evidence and doesn't dismiss them because of past doctrine.

Much moreso, here you answer your own question, "why is a God man necessary?"

Because he is a moral light? Can't a prophet be that?

But I fear that would be too much all at once. Let's start with how being an active part of a good Church would bring you face to face with "Love incarnate," first.

Would it? When I go back to my old church I can't feel anything in worship or prayer any more.

The best evidence we have, does not do what you're asking for here. countless medical miracles that have been documented, and atheists will brush them all away with the wave of a hand. "Without Faith, it is impossible to please God." God is not a philosophical argument, nor a concept. His Kingdom is not in word, but in Power!

To be honest I know what you mean here. I have been in the same room as many apparent healings and knew someone that was healed of a a pretty serious illness, but I can't help but doubt now and ask if it was just psychology; placebo.

If you'll permit me to paraphrase, she who has this hope, will never be put to shame And this is perhaps the most recognizable reason we need a "God man;" so we can know the Father ...

What about those who knew God before Jesus or those today who aren't Christians but seem more Jesus-like than many Christians?

This is what the Bible is for.

Even if the Bible has errors and is man made in many ways. I'm not saying it isn't necessarily inspired though.

I hope you would not be happy with a version that has a form of godliness, but denies it's power.

I don't wish to take its power if I can help it, I just want a reasonable faith. I am happy that miracles could be reasonable, but that depends on if it is reasonable to think there is transcendent Father who consciously loves individuals and acts in the world.

The greatness of the Gospel is that "heaven is above earth;" i.e., Christ is Lord, OF ALL. When you see creation bow before Jesus, even though He has humbled Himself to dwell in you, you are forced to realize this does not conform to a modern / post-modern world. (Sure is a rush though!)

I have no problem with humility because reasonable in the modern world.

 

[elman]

No, you always declare how everyone else's is specifically wrong, but fail to provide any specific details as to how yours is wrong. Why is that?

If I knew where I was wrong I would try to correct it. That is why. Duh.

 

[razeontherock]

What do you call a good church? I seem to be disillusioned about finding a church where the pastor/priest has an understanding of the world that is more true to reality than my own. I am only used to evangelical charismatic churches and though my pastor was a great man and knowledgeable about faith, I need someone who also knows reason and evidence and doesn't dismiss them because of past doctrine.

Hmmm ... excellent questions! I have posted my ideas of a good Church a few times, with mixed responses. You want someplace where what you (correctly) know of the Bible not only taught, but lived out, at least among the leadership. You want to see signs of this spreading from leadership throughout the congregation. You don't seem to be currently in a position to sense the leading of the Holy Spirit or His confirmation, so I'll leave that stuff out now. Some sense of wanting to be more involved is good, but I myself have have "dry spells" where getting involved in small groups for prayer, Bible study etc was a chore. The more you put into it, the more you will get out of it.

Now, when looking for a new Church it is ok to set up a meeting with whoever they have for those purposes, if not the Pastor. You can really get a sense of things quicker than just by visiting around. Before you do any of that though, why dismiss your last Church? I agree I wouldn't be comfortable sitting under a Pastor who dismissed reason, but at the same time you don't go to a mechanic when you're sick If he's knowledgeable about Faith why is that not good? Can you not separate out your sources of info, and still respect him re: Faith even if he's, say, not up to date on the latest findings in abio-genesis? (Note I'm not saying I know what you should do in this case, just presenting some food for thought)

Because he is a moral light? Can't a prophet be that?

In some sense we are all Prophets, and all "moral lights." Do any of us compare in any respect to the one and only God-man?

Would it? When I go back to my old church I can't feel anything in worship or prayer any more.

Well this certainly is a troubling development, and obviously from here I am in no position to offer specific guidance. I might help you diagnose the problem though (Intentional use of irony, using a male-type way of thinking, when something else entirely might be better suited to your needs)\

For starters, can we pin this problem on the Church? Personal responsibility it one of the more powerful forces in our lives; what can you do to see how you might have had a hand in this condition? (Not asking you to divulge personal info you're uncomfortable sharing; introspection is a useful tool, but moderate and wise use is of course in order. Don't open the door for satan to beat you up!)

To be honest I know what you mean here. I have been in the same room as many apparent healings and knew someone that was healed of a a pretty serious illness, but I can't help but doubt now and ask if it was just psychology; placebo.

Ahhh, for this I have a cure, and just the thing!

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mark 9:24)

Often finding even one very small passage of Scripture that fits your current situation exactly will propel you much more than absorbing vast reams ...

I don't wish to take its power if I can help it, I just want a reasonable faith. I am happy that miracles could be reasonable, but that depends on if it is reasonable to think there is transcendent Father who consciously loves individuals and acts in the world.

Is it reasonable to think there is NOT a "transcendent Father who consciously loves individuals and acts in the world?" How then would you explain the martyrdom of all the original Apostles? How would you account for the untold millions of testimonies since then, or even those you're personally aware of? or those I'm aware of? Or those across CF?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," (Hebrews 12:1)

I have no problem with humility because reasonable in the modern world.

Jesus Loves you, and I am not enough to stop Him from doing so. I hope you might find some benefit here, be renewed int he Spirit of your mind, and encouraged to fight the good fight ...

 

[Tzaousios]

If I knew where I was wrong I would try to correct it. That is why. Duh.

This does nothing but reformulate your boastful claim that you are correct and everyone else is wrong. In other words, you think that nothing can be found that says you are wrong. Duh.

Do something more than pay lip service to the ideal that "everyone is wrong in their theology James 3:2." Provide some specific examples that are not among your record of posts at CF.

 

[Paradoxum]

Hmmm ... excellent questions! I have posted my ideas of a good Church a few times, with mixed responses. You want someplace where what you (correctly) know of the Bible not only taught, but lived out, at least among the leadership. You want to see signs of this spreading from leadership throughout the congregation. You don't seem to be currently in a position to sense the leading of the Holy Spirit or His confirmation, so I'll leave that stuff out now. Some sense of wanting to be more involved is good, but I myself have have "dry spells" where getting involved in small groups for prayer, Bible study etc was a chore. The more you put into it, the more you will get out of it.

All good suggestions. I would like the spirit of the Bible to be lived out where focus is on things like helping the poor and ill rather than who is having sex with who and how it is an abomination.

Before you do any of that though, why dismiss your last Church? I agree I wouldn't be comfortable sitting under a Pastor who dismissed reason, but at the same time you don't go to a mechanic when you're sick If he's knowledgeable about Faith why is that not good? Can you not separate out your sources of info, and still respect him re: Faith even if he's, say, not up to date on the latest findings in abio-genesis? (Note I'm not saying I know what you should do in this case, just presenting some food for thought)

Well I can't really go to my own church because I don't live my parents in my home town for a majority of the year. I do philosophy at university. Also I think I would be a bit harsh to say my Pastor dismisses reason, because that isn't quite the same. I guess it is that He holds the Bible as infallible and fairly literalistic and therefore making it hard for science and reason to be given a good say in doctrine. Also though I need help with my faith I wouldn't be comfortable telling him about my doubts, as I was always one of the ones who would have been considered one of the strongest Christians teens in the church and I worked for the church for a year, so it would sort of feel like I fell when I was doing so well. I feel much more able to tell random people about my doubt than people in my home town.

In some sense we are all Prophets, and all "moral lights." Do any of us compare in any respect to the one and only God-man?

No, but some saints and founders of other religions perhaps might be comparable.

For starters, can we pin this problem on the Church? Personal responsibility it one of the more powerful forces in our lives; what can you do to see how you might have had a hand in this condition? (Not asking you to divulge personal info you're uncomfortable sharing; introspection is a useful tool, but moderate and wise use is of course in order. Don't open the door for satan to beat you up!)

I have thought about the reason for my fall a number of times before I think I have come up with a number of reasons that all helped to lead to it. Obviously there is critical assessment of my former doctrine and the realisation that I had believed a lie so easily in the past for a while (I was anti-evolution for a few weeks after reading a book) and so I could easily be wrong about anything. Also I was soon to be moving away from home and so all restrictions were to be gone. As well as this I had no real medium term plan for the first time and so had nothing to focus my mind upon other than the reasonableness of my faith and quite specifically my ethics. I became more accepting of what I once called sin and so, though I don't like to think about it, I am fully aware that the reason I might not sense God any more if because I am not prepared to do whatever God would have me do, if such a God exists.

I know this backs up the Christian idea that sin causes the unbeliever to be unable to see God, but I am just being honest. I think my doubt and open-mindedness in ethics have played off each other into an unstoppable snowball. I hope that isn't too much of an essay.

Is it reasonable to think there is NOT a "transcendent Father who consciously loves individuals and acts in the world?" How then would you explain the martyrdom of all the original Apostles? How would you account for the untold millions of testimonies since then, or even those you're personally aware of? or those I'm aware of? Or those across CF?

I find the martyrdom of the Apostles interesting and compelling, though not totally convincing. To be honest I don't know enough on the subject to be able to answer my own last questions about it, such as, is it possible that the original Apostles were not martyred, or if they were then it wasn't for the belief that they had all seen Jesus resurrected? But Paul mentions the original disciples so it would seem that it must be them. Is it possible that the disciples preached the message of Jesus, but not that they had seen him raised from the dead.

Jesus Loves you, and I am not enough to stop Him from doing so. I hope you might find some benefit here, be renewed int he Spirit of your mind, and encouraged to fight the good fight ...

Thanks.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

If I may ask, what specifically are you having difficulty accepting with regards to the Judeo-Christian tradition? Perhaps I'm just not seeing what you're saying.

 

[razeontherock]

All good suggestions. I would like the spirit of the Bible to be lived out where focus is on things like helping the poor and ill rather than who is having sex with who and how it is an abomination.

Wow that's an interesting comment to make. Let me point out that what the Bible says about specific acts of sexual immorality is "let it not be mentioned once among you, as is becoming to Saints." I really am no Greek expert here, but my own impression of this passage, combined with life experience, tells me that dwelling on these things from the pulpit will do more to arouse interest than it will to promote Holiness.

You have raised an incredibly important topic, that I sometimes refer to as 'a car battery needing both a positive and a negative connection to work.' The car battery is the source of power that gets it started, which I am using as an analogy of the Holy Spirit's acceptance of us and then His Presence in our lives, enabling the type of thing you value here to be done in a way that brings forth fruit unto God. The "negative connection" is what we don't do, as a manifestation of character the Lord works in our life. The "positive connection" is those things we do instead, and like a car battery, connect the positive terminal first

I hope that might make sense to you? Sorry it's sort of a guy thing I'm using as an example, but it is pretty simple. (Hey, no jokes about that please )

I think I would be a bit harsh to say my Pastor dismisses reason, because that isn't quite the same. I guess it is that He holds the Bible as infallible and fairly literalistic and therefore making it hard for science and reason to be given a good say in doctrine.

I think this is semantics more than anything, but I want to make sure that you realize that Christian doctrine and science don't conflict, except in the rare instances of miracles, and the biggie of our Faith is the Resurrection. Not only past-tense of Jesus, but future tense of "the general Resurrection." This really is the bedrock of the Faith! Scripture calls it "a stone of stumbling and Rock of offence." There's no shame in stumbling, but a good woman will get up again even if she falls 7 times, in the same day.

Literal interpretation is a different subject entirely! You are definitely at the age to be inquiring. "The Faith of Abraham" definitely involves "leaving the land of your Fathers," and if you look at the significance of such a statement in that day and age, it is EXTREME. I place importance on this because it is very much my experience that I had to reject literally everything I had been taught growing up, and start new with God. I encourage it! I have found Him Gracious and approachable, and more than ready to answer questions from a sincere heart.

The depth of meaning hidden within the OT stories is ... unimaginable? So much that whether they have any historical element or not doesn't even matter anymore, in light of "what the Spirit says to the Churches." (That would be YOU, btw)

Also though I need help with my faith I wouldn't be comfortable telling him about my doubts, as I was always one of the ones who would have been considered one of the strongest Christians teens in the church and I worked for the church for a year, so it would sort of feel like I fell when I was doing so well. I feel much more able to tell random people about my doubt than people in my home town.

Well this forum certainly serves it's purpose! And I trust that like me, being forced to put your thoughts in writing and then actually read them is a huge step all by itself! And then when people like me come along that pull no punches, we can be challenged in aspects of our thinking we never considered. (I love it when that happens!)

So I need to make a strong point. The "calling of the Gospel" is ALWAYS presented in Scripture as 'staying in your current station in life,' so the testimony of whatever changes the Spirit works in you is clearly seen as part of the community. This builds the Faith of EVERYONE. I will conclude that this means your childhood Pastor would benefit from knowing all this, and you will also (painfully) benefit from confiding in him about all this. I DO realize how difficult and incredibly awkward this suggestion is! Are you willing to consider how it could contribute to your general maturity, and also to your Spiritual growth? Are you willing to consider how this would contribute to the Faith of your childhood Pastor?!? Ok, it might rock his sensibilities for a minute, but you might be surprised at how much he takes it all in stride or even suspected it. Guaranteed if he has even an ounce of the Holy Spirit, he would be greatly re-assured to see you come back and tell the tale of examining the foundation of the Faith, seeing yourself fall short, and finding meaning by searching for yourself. Even if there might be some minor doctrinal differences.
In fact I will go so far as to say that discussing those differences (that no doubt you will find for yourself as you search) will be GOOD for him, because it will force him to recognize the greatness of God moreso than he has already.

If you can't recognize it, the kind of thing I'm describing here is, Love in action. Difficult to be sure, but incredibly rewarding!

No, but some saints and founders of other religions perhaps might be comparable.

This is too important to let slide. Who is actually comparable on equal footing with Jesus? Who else has an empty tomb? What is the significance of His Resurrection? You need to pursue great questions more than you need somebody else's answers, but here is relevant Scripture:

"declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" This is from the very beginning of the book of Romans, which is undoubtedly Paul's last and best writing. Have you ever really digested this one phrase?

I have thought about the reason for my fall a number of times before I think I have come up with a number of reasons that all helped to lead to it. Obviously there is critical assessment of my former doctrine and the realisation that I had believed a lie so easily in the past for a while (I was anti-evolution for a few weeks after reading a book) and so I could easily be wrong about anything.

There is actually some health in your statement here! Humility is good, and God honors it. That is a strong statement that you believed a lie, but your current bias will serve you well throughout your school years. FWIW, there are always details any science will have wrong, but knowing that will not help you in school unless you are the one to make a groundbreaking discovery.

Also I was soon to be moving away from home and so all restrictions were to be gone. As well as this I had no real medium term plan for the first time and so had nothing to focus my mind upon other than the reasonableness of my faith and quite specifically my ethics. I became more accepting of what I once called sin and so, though I don't like to think about it, I am fully aware that the reason I might not sense God any more if because I am not prepared to do whatever God would have me do, if such a God exists.

This is a frank realization, and please recognize that I (and no doubt many other posters) have gone through something similar enough to know exactly what you mean. Right about now the reminder that God is greater than sin and conquered it via a frail and very mortal human being should help you. The Power of forgiveness is ... precious. No you are not "too far gone." Remember the parable of the 99 sheep?

Even though we're on opposite sides of the pond our societies are both quite different from anything in Biblical times. Even in Jesus' day, there was still no such thing as a woman or even an attractive young girl who wasn't married or spoken for via an arranged marriage to occur in the future. So His comment about looking lustfully = adultery really would be literal, but today the implications are quite different. Nobody has their Father hooking us up with a hottie we can enjoy without restraint as soon as the hormones start kicking in, and we look at even the suggestion as being perverse. (I mean can you imagine?)

I have no pat answers or trite sayings to make what many people find to be the most difficult aspect of life (and Faith) easy. What I will point out is the benefit of you making Peace with God! You know that Peace has been disturbed, and you have at least some concrete behaviors or at least thought patterns that you know contribute to that dilemma. And you find them enjoyable. Do you know what that makes you? Human.

Don't turn your back on God because of this. He Loves you like no one else ever can or will. He not only knows about your humanity, He created it.
No I don't know His solution for you, but I know that short-term as well as mid-term part of it includes "keeping a short list" with God, in terms of confession of sin. If you truly can't bring your heart to a condition of repentance, well - He knows that so don't try to hide it! Asking for help becomes an obvious step. Even King David talked about "sins of his youth," and remember, God Himself called David "a man after His own heart."

We call Jesus "Savior" for a reason, and it is time for you to become more familiar with that side of who He is.

I know this backs up the Christian idea that sin causes the unbeliever to be unable to see God, but I am just being honest. I think my doubt and open-mindedness in ethics have played off each other into an unstoppable snowball. I hope that isn't too much of an essay.

Essay? I'm more long winded than you, and as concise as I can be. These are important issues, at a critical juncture in your life!

2 concepts you need to confront here are that sin separated us from God in the OT, (Isaiah 59:2) and this snowball is NOT unstoppable, (Romans 8:38) because God is greater, and hasn't even turned against you.

I find the martyrdom of the Apostles interesting and compelling, though not totally convincing. To be honest I don't know enough on the subject to be able to answer my own last questions about it, such as, is it possible that the original Apostles were not martyred, or if they were then it wasn't for the belief that they had all seen Jesus resurrected?

Again I will help you refine your own questions in such a way that you might find your own answers more readily, because it is not my Faith you need, but your own. Why did early Churches value "relics" of the Saints? Body fragments were not seen as morose, but as a reminder that even martyrdom did not take precious people away from the Church. Consider why that view so foreign to us now, would be so mainstream then.

And no one really "saw Jesus resurrected," they merely saw Him alive after he had been dead for 3 days. What they all SAW was His ascension! Don't forget that often neglected aspect of the Gospel! Look at this contrast between these two events, and consider "what the Spirit is saying" via these actions!!!

Is it possible that the disciples preached the message of Jesus, but not that they had seen him raised from the dead.

Nope

Want a longer version? Doubting Thomas didn't believe because He touched the Lord's wounds as he requested. He believed for the same reason Peter did; (and was sur-named) he received the revelation that Jesus is "the Christ," and put that together with the OT Promises. (You can tell by Thomas' words) THAT is the Rock that this Ray is on! Thomas also went on to do something no other Apostle did, which was found a Church in a foreign land, all by himself. He went to India, and the Churches in that huge region are still alive and well. We know they all preached the Resurrection as eye witnesses because every Church ever established conveys that message.

Hang in there!