Holiness

[from scratch]

I see much of the NT doctrine is found also in some of the law. Paul did say its good and holy. He did say we establish the Law, he did say for love we obey the law. The law is helpful in showing us our sin and our need for a Savior, and in understanding holiness and love. I like Gods law.

So what does establish mean? Does it mean one is obligated to it? How? Please show this means obligation especially in light of Gal 4:30. Is Paul insane? NO! If he is then the whole religious thing is nothing more than vanity and extreme foolishness. If Paul can't be believed then neither can Moses and on the same grounds.

 

[from scratch]

What is Love and holiness except something that was already found in the law? God still requires us to be holy and to love each other and Himself. I like to look at it like we should obey the law as given by Jesus and the apostles. They speak a great deal about salvation by faith alone, but they also teach us a lot about Gods will and abstaining from all forms of evil. Without teaching those things with grace we risk having Christians walking after the lust of their own flesh instead of after holiness and in the Spirit. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Having been a church boy for 40 years your theory can't possibbly be correct. Those who are determined to follow the lust in their hearts will do it no matter what they know or are told. Those who follow the Lord have had a change of heart and act differently and not because of some law or the law. It is a matter of what one conforms to God or the world. There is pleasure in sin for a season and the flesh screams for it. Paul said he had an ongoing problem with it -Rom 7. In Rom 12 he talks about the living sacrifice. The problem with a living sacrifice is it keeps crawling off the altar.

 

[from scratch]

What is Love and holiness except something that was already found in the law? God still requires us to be holy and to love each other and Himself. I like to look at it like we should obey the law as given by Jesus and the apostles. They speak a great deal about salvation by faith alone, but they also teach us a lot about Gods will and abstaining from all forms of evil. Without teaching those things with grace we risk having Christians walking after the lust of their own flesh instead of after holiness and in the Spirit. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Where does the law express love?

 

[from scratch]

Yes, pastors’ own particular personal perceptions don’t pique my patronage presently. I left a church over individual interpretations by a pastor. His remind me somewhat of your own, come to think of it. Guess he was an original thinker, too.

If I conformed to the norm I would have to deny much Scripture. This I'm no longer willling to do without regard to the consequences. I now have been able to recognize much poison. I simply won't feed there any more. Anyone with a love for God who will read the Scripture and I mean all the Scripture with an open heart and not through the eyes of what they've been told will feel the same way at some point. Especially those like some here that are in turmoil looking for the peace that passes all understanding.

 

[from scratch]

Yes we can't be perfected in the flesh, but we are supposed to be holy and to do all that is good and forsake all that is bad. Not walking according to the lust of our flesh, but instead in the Spirit. All the while looking towards Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith. Is that accurate frogster?

And you talk about 2 different things here like they're the same thing. You're still demanding the perfection of the flesh.

 

[Catherineanne]

Where does the law express love?

Paul tells us there is no law against love, or any other fruit of the spirit.

 

[cubinity]

Paul doesn't write law. Only his own opinion.

 

[fhansen]

If I conformed to the norm I would have to deny much Scripture. This I'm no longer willling to do without regard to the consequences. I now have been able to recognize much poison. I simply won't feed there any more. Anyone with a love for God who will read the Scripture and I mean all the Scripture with an open heart and not through the eyes of what they've been told will feel the same way at some point. Especially those like some here that are in turmoil looking for the peace that passes all understanding.

We should obtain a level of peace and groundedness in this life due to our faith, of course, but this life will always pose struggles, obstacles, suffering, doubt-that's just honesty. The "peace that passes all understanding" is rarely available in this life except for a special granting, a taste, given according to Gods wisdom. It's so good that it's virtually a taste of heaven.

None of what the norm tells us is right, in the sense that it's adequate, even if it happens to be right on the money as to its basic theology. This is because God is a direct experience after all, and can be even now to a limited degree-but so much more so when we meet Him "face to face" of course. Otherwise knowledge of God remains simply information we receive about Him.

BTW, the Law expresses love because the Law is based on love. This is why Jesus could sum it with the greatest commandments, to love God and neighbor.

 

[from scratch]

Paul tells us there is no law against love, or any other fruit of the spirit.

OK but the question is where does it say the law is love?

 

[from scratch]

Paul doesn't write law. Only his own opinion.

I agree that Paul doesn't write law. But I vehemently disagree that he merely expresses his opinion.

 

[from scratch]

We should obtain a level of peace and groundedness in this life due to our faith, of course, but this life will always pose struggles, obstacles, suffering, doubt-that's just honesty. The "peace that passes all understanding" is rarely available in this life except for a special granting, a taste, given according to Gods wisdom. It's so good that it's virtually a taste of heaven.

Well I'm grounded about several thing in my life. But here I'm only talking about spiritual life. Here are 2 verses to back me up - That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love - Most have no clue what loves is. This causes a real problem.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; - this must mean grounded in the Gospel.

Galatians gets into the subject as well.

None of what the norm tells us is right, in the sense that it's adequate, even if it happens to be right on the money as to its basic theology. This is because God is a direct experience after all, and can be even now to a limited degree-but so much more so when we meet Him "face to face" of course. Otherwise knowledge of God remains simply information we receive about Him.

So why participate in the norm if nothing it tells us is right? Now figure out what I just said.

BTW, the Law expresses love because the Law is based on love. This is why Jesus could sum it with the greatest commandments, to love God and neighbor.

Can you show this without the NT?

 

[11822]

So what does establish mean? Does it mean one is obligated to it? How? Please show this means obligation especially in light of Gal 4:30. Is Paul insane? NO! If he is then the whole religious thing is nothing more than vanity and extreme foolishness. If Paul can't be believed then neither can Moses and on the same grounds.

I wasn't trying to interpret the meaning of establish the law, i was only meaning that Paul said it. All i really know is that i must have have faith in Jesus for my salvation and also i must separate myself from the world by following God call to holiness and to resit evil and do good instead, not to be self righteous, but to be holy instead because God calls us to be holy, he tells us in no uncertain terms how to live and that's what im striving to do. And we should all follow our conscience because anything not of faith is sin, however our faith doesn't turn that which is good into that which is bad. For example i cannot say that i like fornication therefor i'll have faith that i can be a fornicator and still please him, because Gods clear that i can't do that and still please him.

 

[Frogster]

And if we see our own sin because of the law, grace will abound even more. I'm done now

Well.....not that we want that, but in all fairness, that is what happened...read rom 5:20.

Bro, never be deceived to thinking that guilt, will prevent further walking in the flesh, it never did, and never will. Repetitive compulsions throuhout time, have proven that.

 

[Frogster]

Having been a church boy for 40 years your theory can't possibbly be correct. Those who are determined to follow the lust in their hearts will do it no matter what they know or are told. Those who follow the Lord have had a change of heart and act differently and not because of some law or the law. It is a matter of what one conforms to God or the world. There is pleasure in sin for a season and the flesh screams for it. Paul said he had an ongoing problem with it -Rom 7. In Rom 12 he talks about the living sacrifice. The problem with a living sacrifice is it keeps crawling off the altar.

 

[Frogster]

Alot of compulsions are just emotional pain anyway, man self medicates, but enough said on that for now.

 

[11822]

Well.....not that we want that, but in all fairness, that is what happened...read rom 5:20.

Bro, never be deceived to thinking that guilt, will prevent further walking in the flesh, it never did, and never will. Repetitive compulsions throuhout time, have proven that.

If i am a thief i will not stop being thief by not trying. and if God says being a thief is wrong then its wrong for me to be a thief, to know good an not do it is sin. Sure i'll need Gods help that's why we pray for Him to help us, but not trying is not an excuse, we must try, the apostles are clear when they tell us to not do evil, they don't speak a lot of words about how we do nothing, they don't tell us not to concentrate on doing good, they tell us multiple times to do good and not do evil.

 

[from scratch]

I wasn't trying to interpret the meaning of establish the law, i was only meaning that Paul said it. All i really know is that i must have have faith in Jesus for my salvation and also i must separate myself from the world by following God call to holiness and to resit evil and do good instead, not to be self righteous, but to be holy instead because God calls us to be holy, he tells us in no uncertain terms how to live and that's what im striving to do. And we should all follow our conscience because anything not of faith is sin, however our faith doesn't turn that which is good into that which is bad. For example i cannot say that i like fornication therefor i'll have faith that i can be a fornicator and still please him, because Gods clear that i can't do that and still please him.

Amazing! I still think you're back peddling pretty fast.

 

[11822]

Alot of compulsions are just emotional pain anyway, man self medicates, but enough said on that for now.

Drug abuse is self medicating, i used to do that but not now, i saw how i was actually using all my money on drugs while i couldn't help anyone if they ever needed it, i saw that God would judge me for allowing widows and orphans to suffer while i got high, it interfered with Gods will and i think it was more idolatry then Godly. I once used drugs to make me feel better, now i let God do that with prayer, the word and faith.

 

[from scratch]

If i am a thief i will not stop being thief by not trying. and if God says being a thief is wrong then its wrong for me to be a thief, to know good an not do it is sin. Sure i'll needs Gods help that's why we pray for Him to help us, but not trying is not an excuse, we must try, the apostles are clear when they tell us to not do evil, they don't speak a lot of words about how we do nothing, they don't tell us not to concentrate on doing good, they tell us multiple times to do good and not do evil.

So tell us how one can be a Christian can steal. Is this doing unto others as you would have them do to you?

 

[11822]

Amazing! I still think you're back peddling pretty fast.

No i'm not back peddling, I never back peddled on any belief, i only saw that we don't understand each other, we argue when we might actually agree for the most part. I decided to be more specific and clear so others can understand me. Clarity is something we should all strive for.