How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Phred]

Whether you could bring yourself to believe it or not, doesn't it sound interesting/stimulating/beautiful as an idea, as a principle that potential consciousness, personhood, orientation towards what is best -- comes from a pre-existing eternally existen being who has such qualities?

Frankly... no. Because then it screwed up royally. For hundreds of thousands of years it has decided to be so enigmatic that we're still having this discussion. Millions of people have died over "my deity is better than your deity". So the "orientation toward what is best" doesn't work very well. Right now we have politicians so worried about who knows what that they're willing to let the entire country pay the price for their vanity. If there is a god I want to kick it in the shins. It's a coward.

Do human ethical issues scare you? Does our own responsibility for our horrible attitudes and activities bother you? Did it occur to you that the problem is that we pervasively disregard what is right and shirk our responsibilities and have warped hearts and minds, so we insist on rejecting much good that God offers us and fail to appreciate the Good that God gives us despite our instance on not being bothered with God?

Why do you always, always, always only give your god credit for good things and never for the bad things? IF your god exists and is all powerful and all knowing and everything else then it gets the good with the bad. It's not a miracle that the baby survived the plane crash. It's a damned tragedy that the other three hundred people DIED. What's sick is that you constantly pick and choose events and find the good then put that on god's plate. It doesn't work that way. God's in control or it isn't. There's no half baked versions like you religionists propose. I'd be fine with a real god. One that takes responsibility for everything. But you guys can't even imagine that.

 

[Phred]

Fair enough -- it's still creatio ex materia.

God rested from His work (creatio ex nihilo) on the seventh day, instituting the Law of Conservation of Energy.

As I have pointed out many times amid laughter, automatic denial, and/or ridicule, the amount of mass/energy started out at zero, then was raised to its current level over a period of six days.

Mainly because you're incredibly wrong. You have a lot of physics to study.

FYI... google zero energy universe.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Frankly... no. Because then it screwed up royally. For hundreds of thousands of years it has decided to be so enigmatic that we're still having this discussion. Millions of people have died over "my deity is better than your deity". So the "orientation toward what is best" doesn't work very well. Right now we have politicians so worried about who knows what that they're willing to let the entire country pay the price for their vanity. If there is a god I want to kick it in the shins. It's a coward.



Why do you always, always, always only give your god credit for good things and never for the bad things? IF your god exists and is all powerful and all knowing and everything else then it gets the good with the bad. It's not a miracle that the baby survived the plane crash. It's a damned tragedy that the other three hundred people DIED. What's sick is that you constantly pick and choose events and find the good then put that on god's plate. It doesn't work that way. God's in control or it isn't. There's no half baked versions like you religionists propose. I'd be fine with a real god. One that takes responsibility for everything. But you guys can't even imagine that.

+1!

 

[AV1611VET]

Mainly because you're incredibly wrong. You have a lot of physics to study.

FYI... google zero energy universe.

How about you Google nothing instead?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

It sounds interesting as a purely academic idea.

The pre-existing personal cause of your life as a person is interesting to you 'purely as an academic idea' -- not personally intriguing?

I would be terrified by ultimate power being wielded by an entity that supposedly thinks your choice of consensual sexual partner can mean you're worthy of dead.

Are you putting the cart before the horse? What is our habitual attitude towards life, consciousness, concience, God? We continually act like the source of all good things is not important, and tell God to leave us alone, and then complain about it: this is the nature of sin, death, and Hell. We are invited to turn towards goodness and righteousness, life, and Heaven. Take the offer and see that God has good things to show us, guidance for how to live rightly, and let these other concerns like desires for casual sex or social recognition (or whatever keeps you from God) fall away as the petty, short-lived phenomena that they are.

So you say because things are alive there could be a god. Why? That's a fallacious argument. It just shows a lack of imagination.

Life, conscience, appreciation for art, etc., all indicate a level of organization, a type of functionality that is qualitatively quite distinct from unliving matter. What on earth makes you think it is meaningful to claim you have intelligence if there is no intelligence prior to human intelligence? It is more sensible to say potential for intelligence existed before intelligence was manifested in living beings in the universe, and to say that before the universe, intelligence existed. Similarly with life and the appreciation for what is best.

Because then it screwed up royally. For hundreds of thousands of years it has decided to be so enigmatic that we're still having this discussion. Millions of people have died over "my deity is better than your deity". So the "orientation toward what is best" doesn't work very well.

Humanity is simply messed up. We turned away from our creator and made alliance with Hell. Our hearts and minds reflect this in our sin and confusion.

If there is a god I want to...

That attitude is Hellish. I used to have it, too. But it doesn't have to be that way.

I'd be fine with a real god. One that takes responsibility for everything. But you guys can't even imagine that.

The real God revealed in the Bible does allow calamity to occur. Calamity doesn't happen because of any ignorance or inability on God's part. We have been traitors to God, the author of all good things, and made alliance with Hell; then we complain to God about it and blame Him. If you want more of this sort of thing, for eternally, you can continue in your sins, denying Him.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Humanity is simply messed up. We turned away from our creator and made alliance with Hell. Our hearts and minds reflect this in our sin and confusion.

Obviously this is why some of the most nonreligious countries in the world are statistically some of the safest, best educated,etc countries in the world. In my Christian world, Christianity is not the one size fits all super fixer of all the world's ills that some make it out to be.

 

[Ar Cosc]

The pre-existing personal cause of your life as a person is interesting to you 'purely as an academic idea' -- not personally intriguing?

I find scientific theories as to the origin of the universe, and the development of life fascinating, do you find Hindu mythology as exciting as you expect me to find your religious beliefs.

Are you putting the cart before the horse? What is our habitual attitude towards life, consciousness, concience, God? We continually act like the source of all good things is not important, and tell God to leave us alone, and then complain about it: this is the nature of sin, death, and Hell. We are invited to turn towards goodness and righteousness, life, and Heaven. Take the offer and see that God has good things to show us, guidance for how to live rightly, and let these other concerns like desires for casual sex or social recognition (or whatever keeps you from God) fall away as the petty, short-lived phenomena that they are.

I think the source of good things is important, I just don't think it's supernatural in nature.

I already said in this thread that there seems to be a common misconception among christians that atheists believe in God, at least on some level, but consciously reject him because they want to be free from judgement, or something. The main reason I don't believe in God is that I don't think there's any convincing evidence that he exists, and plenty of evidence that he probably doesn't, at least, not in the form described in the bible.

Now, even if I did believe in your God, and believed all the things in the bible were true, I would probably despise him, but that is really a secondary reason for me not being a christian.

 

[British Bulldog]

The real God revealed in the Bible does allow calamity to occur. Calamity doesn't happen because of any ignorance or inability on God's part. We have been traitors to God, the author of all good things, and made alliance with Hell; then we complain to God about it and blame Him. If you want more of this sort of thing, for eternally, you can continue in your sins, denying Him.

You're ignoring the point that was made. God only being responsible for nice things is nonsensical. He either made the universe and is responsible for all of it or He didn't and He isn't. He can't pick and choose which bits He wants to take credit for.

 

[Ar Cosc]

You're ignoring the point that was made. God only being responsible for nice things is nonsensical. He either made the universe and is responsible for all of it or He didn't and He isn't. He can't pick and choose which bits He wants to take credit for.

He could also not be fully in control, which would also make things make more sense.

If God was immensely powerful, but not all-powerful, Satan could still cause earthquakes, kill many, and try to block God from making rescues. In that case, it really would be fantastic and something to praise God for if one person survived. If we're to believe God is all powerful, literally everything is God's fault, and God's fault alone.

 

[Simply_Amazing]

How about you Google nothing instead?

If you were to do so you'd find that space doesn't qualify as "nothing" anymore. More over, we don't know if before the big bang there was nothing or something.

 

[selfinflikted]

He could also not be fully in control, which would also make things make more sense.

If God was immensely powerful, but not all-powerful, Satan could still cause earthquakes, kill many, and try to block God from making rescues. In that case, it really would be fantastic and something to praise God for if one person survived. If we're to believe God is all powerful, literally everything is God's fault, and God's fault alone.

Yes, but god can't intervene all the time, that would take away free will. Oh, and The Fall. OH! And, we should stop relying on god to do everything and mankind should take responsibility.

(did I miss anything?)

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

The real God revealed in the Bible does allow calamity to occur.

There are many reasons I am no longer a theist, and this is one of the major problems facing Christianity today, IMO. The fact that your idea of god is one who allows pain, suffering, and disease, yet does nothing about it, is evil.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Obviously this is why some of the most nonreligious countries in the world are statistically some of the safest, best educated,etc countries in the world.

Not Cuba or the former Soviet Union or China or North Korea. Anyhow, you do acknowledge that people are messed up. When Christians mess-up, are you willing to see them as betraying their creator, as sinning, as committing blasphemy, in addition to sinning against other human beings? What about non-Christians?

I find scientific theories as to the origin of the universe, and the development of life fascinating, do you find Hindu mythology as exciting as you expect me to find your religious beliefs.

I didn't even get to anything all that specific, yet.

Ever hear of pan-psychism, the idea that matter has a mental aspect? The idea that awareness is a latent potential within matter, is something non-Christians might speculate about, to deal with the qualitative differences between living beings with some degree of awareness and inanimate matter, how anything ever came to have any awareness (or life, for that matter)

The main reason I don't believe in God is that I don't think there's any convincing evidence that he exists, and plenty of evidence that he probably doesn't, at least, not in the form described in the bible.

Is that your main reason, or does your desire to have sex with consenting partners regardless of what God may think about it also influence you on the question of accepting the Lordship of Jesus Christ and being saved? If you compare some years of free sex in this life, and some years of sexual restraint followed by experiencing eternal joy in Heaven, eternal joy in Heaven would far outweigh earthly pleasures in this life?

Now, even if I did believe in your God, and believed all the things in the bible were true, I would probably despise him, but that is really a secondary reason for me not being a christian.

Despise is a strong word. Despising the only source of goodness -- can you imagine what kind of Hell that would be, eternally, to despise the author of life, the author of beauty, etc., just because God allows us to despise Him and forsake His ways? Perverse.

 

[selfinflikted]

There are many reasons I am no longer a theist, and this is one of the major problems facing Christianity today, IMO. The fact that your idea of god is one who allows pain, suffering, and disease, yet does nothing about it, is evil.

How else are we to recognize his grace and mercy if there were no evil allowed to exist?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

You're ignoring the point that was made. God only being responsible for nice things is nonsensical. He either made the universe and is responsible for all of it or He didn't and He isn't. He can't pick and choose which bits He wants to take credit for.

God made the universe. He permits evil to occur. He permitted us to make alliances with demons and then to deal with many of the consequences, to be harassed by demons, and to be harmed by other humans, and to be subject to various natural calamities, sickness and death. We didn't want the ways of the Lord of Life, so we are seeing the result of not walking in God's ways. He also offers us a way out of the consequences of our rebellion. If you don't like the state of the world and various human injustices, etc., you can repent, turn to God, and start over.

 

[Paul 5]

There are many reasons I am no longer a theist, and this is one of the major problems facing Christianity today, IMO. The fact that your idea of god is one who allows pain, suffering, and disease, yet does nothing about it, is evil.

Actually it is much worse than that,God allows human kind that has not accepted Jesus as Saviour to enter a place of eternal torment...much worse than anything in this world. How do you put the two together? The God of love and the God of wrath against evil? God took the form of a man and suffered terribly in order to give man a way of escape from the wrath of God...people better take the offer while it is still on the table.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

God made the universe. He permits evil to occur. He permitted us to make alliances with demons and then to deal with many of the consequences, to be harassed by demons, and to be harmed by other humans, and to be subject to various natural calamities, sickness and death. We didn't want the ways of the Lord of Life, so we are seeing the result of not walking in God's ways. He also offers us a way out of the consequences of our rebellion. If you don't like the state of the world and various human injustices, etc., you can repent, turn to God, and start over.

This could also describe a mafia boss.

 

[Ar Cosc]

I didn't even get to anything all that specific, yet.

Ever hear of pan-psychism, the idea that matter has a mental aspect? The idea that awareness is a latent potential within matter, is something non-Christians might speculate about, to deal with the qualitative differences between living beings with some degree of awareness and inanimate matter, how anything ever came to have any awareness (or life, for that matter)

All quite interesting, but I don't think they're credible theories, so I have a different sort of interest in them.

Is that your main reason, or does your desire to have sex with consenting partners regardless of what God may think about it also influence you on the question of accepting the Lordship of Jesus Christ and being saved? If you compare some years of free sex in this life, and some years of sexual restraint followed by experiencing eternal joy in Heaven, eternal joy in Heaven would far outweigh earthly pleasures in this life?

Yup, final answer. Me not believing in God isn't influenced by how I would regard God should he actually exist. In fact, I've never had what most people would describe as "casual sex". It's always been with a relatively long-term partner.

Plus I don't think a loving god would place such arbitrary rules on us, especially as he supposedly hasn't done the decency of revealing himself unequivocally to everyone.

Despise is a strong word. Despising the only source of goodness -- can you imagine what kind of Hell that would be, eternally, to despise the author of life, the author of beauty, etc., just because God allows us to despise Him and forsake His ways? Perverse.

We only have God's word for it that's he's wholly good. His actions as described in the bible would imply otherwise to me, and many others.

 

[selfinflikted]

God took the form of a man and suffered terribly in order to give man a way of escape from the wrath of God...

How, exactly, does god taking the form of a man and "suffering terribly" give man a way to escape god's wrath? Couldn't he have just skipped the bloody part and simply forgive.. you know, the way normal people do?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Actually it is much worse than that,God allows human kind that has not accepted Jesus as Saviour to enter a place of eternal torment...much worse than anything in this world. How do you put the two together? The God of love and the God of wrath against evil? God took the form of a man and suffered terribly in order to give man a way of escape from the wrath of God...people better take the offer while it is still on the table.

Tell that to the fifty billion children who have died before the age of consent.