How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Ar Cosc]

Fishes didn't appear from nowhere.

Nowhere is creatio ex nihilo.

Fishes appeared from somewhere.

Somewhere is creatio ex materia.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Do you see what calling this stuff "magic" does to your thinking?

It causes you to make mistakes.

Thank you for such a good demonstration of something I've been saying here for five years.

Magic, got it.

Sure.

-Faith in magnetic fields (unless you're a visiblist which means that "WE DON'T KNOW" )

We can observe the effects of magnetic fields. Give me one observable, testable quality of God.

-Faith in Pyramd builders (unless you think that they can arise by chance)

Pyramids are too regular and complex to have developed by chance (seeing as they don't reproduce and evolve. Things that do this can become more complex with mutation)

-Faith in the civil war

Multiple, corroborating sources consistent with the evidence. That's not the same as believing the hooey that makes up large chunks of the Bible.

-Faith in God (unless youre a materialist which means "WE DON'T KNOW")

Faith in Russell's Teapot and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For which we have the exact same amount of observable, testable evidence as we do for your God.

The request for evidence for God is actually a request for evidence that data is not secretly materialism. It isn't valid. Materialists read the dictionary on "faith," see "without evidence" and automatically run in without realizing the different types of faith. They end up looking like modern day visiblists (people who don't believe that invisible things exist) and obstinately refuse to accept the burden of proof as the dictionary definition is still ringing in your ears.

Why do you think you don't have the burden of proof for your untestable, unverified God? Who is the burden of proof upon for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Vishnu, Xenu, and Quetzalcoatl?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Awesome anecdote, but anecdotes can't be used as evidence for something as significant as the creator of the universe who apparently knows when and with whom we shouldn't have sex, or what music we should/n't listen to.

So in your view having whatever sex you want or listening to whatever music you want is more important than dealing with questions about the God who designed you to be able to enjoy both sex and music?

 

[Nomarga]

So in your view having whatever sex you want or listening to whatever music you want is more important than dealing with questions about the God who designed you to be able to enjoy both sex and music?

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

 

[Ar Cosc]

There really is a lot of evidence that there is a God if one is willing to honestly look. I was over at the neighbors some time back and a friend stopped by who was just coming back from the funeral of a young man,I do not know all the details but the story went something like this. Apparently the young man had something wrong with him and according to his wife he called her and the kids into a room and told them," people say it can't be so but God has been talking to me for about an hour,He told me not to worry about you and the kids that everything would be alright", after that he held them in his arms for a couple of hours and then they went into another room and when they came back he had died. The stories of people who have encountered God are vast in number. The evidence is there.

The stories of people who think they have encountered God are vast in number. If there was somebody from a lost tribe who had never been exposed to the idea of a christian God suddenly came forth and said he'd been chatting with the christian God, I'd lend more credence to the idea.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

Seriously? It doesn't concern or excite you to think that the reason why you exist and can enjoy sex and music is because there is a personal, intelligent, creative God who created everything?

 

[Greg1234]

Personally, my position is one of unbelief. That is to say, in the same way you do not believe in Molek, I do not believe in your god.

Actually, theyre not the same. This molek character would be created. It's not needed. That's like saying I don't believe in pyramid builders for the same reason you don't believe in molek.

Those who claim a god/s exist have not met their burden of proof. Until such a time that positive evidence is discovered, I will remain atheist.

How do we have to prove that the data is not secretly a materialistic cause. Do people who choose to believe that the buck stops at an invisible cause for magnetic phenomena (and that there is no visible cause) have to provide evidence for magnetic fields too? Or how about those dispicable "pyramidbuildersists?"

 

[AV1611VET]

Seriously? It doesn't concern or excite you to think that the reason why you exist and can enjoy sex and music is because there is a personal, intelligent, creative God who created everything?

Please don't get these guys started on their libidos -- they don't care who reads their posts.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Seriously? It doesn't concern or excite you to think that the reason why you exist and can enjoy sex and music is because there is a personal, intelligent, creative God who created everything?

It would, if I could bring myself to believe it. Of course, even if I did believe it, I think the God as describes in the Bible has serious ethical issues, so I'd be more scared than excited, unless he had some very good explanations for me.

 

[Phred]

Fishes didn't appear from nowhere.

Nowhere is creatio ex nihilo.

Fishes appeared from somewhere.

Somewhere is creatio ex materia.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Do you see what calling this stuff "magic" does to your thinking?

It causes you to make mistakes.

Thank you for such a good demonstration of something I've been saying here for five years.

I was referring to the fishes Jesus supposedly fed the multitudes. See what believing does? It makes you cocky.

 

[Nomarga]

Seriously? It doesn't concern or excite you to think that the reason why you exist and can enjoy sex and music is because there is a personal, intelligent, creative God who created everything?

You seem awfully certain of this supposed being. Where can I (visibly) see the deity? I'd like to talk or at least see this being at work, so that I'm sure it exists or isn't some lesser being masquerading as "the creator of everything" (not that we mortals would be able to distinguish, right?).

I'm cautious because I've heard there's another deity out there, Allah, that isn't too fond of women or infidels (me, apparently) and I don't really want to hook up to something similar.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

It would, if I could bring myself to believe it.

Whether you could bring yourself to believe it or not, doesn't it sound interesting/stimulating/beautiful as an idea, as a principle that potential consciousness, personhood, orientation towards what is best -- comes from a pre-existing eternally existen being who has such qualities?

Of course, even if I did believe it, I think the God as describes in the Bible has serious ethical issues, so I'd be more scared than excited, unless he had some very good explanations for me.

Do human ethical issues scare you? Does our own responsibility for our horrible attitudes and activities bother you? Did it occur to you that the problem is that we pervasively disregard what is right and shirk our responsibilities and have warped hearts and minds, so we insist on rejecting much good that God offers us and fail to appreciate the Good that God gives us despite our instance on not being bothered with God?

 

[AV1611VET]

I was referring to the fishes Jesus supposedly fed the multitudes. See what believing does? It makes you cocky.

Fair enough -- it's still creatio ex materia.

God rested from His work (creatio ex nihilo) on the seventh day, instituting the Law of Conservation of Energy.

As I have pointed out many times amid laughter, automatic denial, and/or ridicule, the amount of mass/energy started out at zero, then was raised to its current level over a period of six days.

 

[Phred]

Youre all over the place here. It's like taking the spanish word for bananas and paralleling it with the english for truck.

No. I'm right on point. I assume it's hard for you to grok because you can't get past your complete and utter brainwashing.

Almost everything in microbiology is magical in astronomy. Calling something "magic" is a moot point.

That's not true at all. Magic does not mean we don't understand it. It mean NOBODY understands it. Because it can't be understood. The impossible has taken place and its cause is your god. Somehow. You need no more explanation than that. The impossible happening is magic. When a reasonable explanation is offered, say, the donkey didn't talk but a ventriloquist made it LOOK like the donkey talked you balk. You prefer the magic. You prefer that the event has no explanation other than your deity. Thus you create a NEED for your deity. That's what "miracles" are. And what are miracles but magic? Fishes, loaves, donkeys... magic.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Whether you could bring yourself to believe it or not, doesn't it sound interesting/stimulating/beautiful as an idea, as a principle that potential consciousness, personhood, orientation towards what is best -- comes from a pre-existing eternally existen being who has such qualities?

It sounds interesting as a purely academic idea.

Do human ethical issues scare you? Does our own responsibility for our horrible attitudes and activities bother you? Did it occur to you that the problem is that we pervasively disregard what is right and shirk our responsibilities and have warped hearts and minds, so we insist on rejecting much good that God offers us and fail to appreciate the Good that God gives us despite our instance on not being bothered with God?

Immensely. But at least humans aren't all-powerful. I would be terrified by ultimate power being wielded by an entity that supposedly thinks your choice of consensual sexual partner can mean you're worthy of dead.

 

[Greg1234]

We can observe the effects of magnetic fields. Give me one observable, testable quality of God.

Intelligence. And we can observe the manifestation of that as a reflective property in the effect (see man).

Pyramids are too regular and complex to have developed by chance

Ah! Argument from ignorance!

(seeing as they don't reproduce and evolve.
Things that do this can become more complex with mutation)

We see the same thing in reproducing organisms. Stasis, intelligent adaptation and degradation in the hands of stochastic processes. Don't reproduce, reproduce- same thing.

Multiple, corroborating sources consistent with the evidence. That's not the same as believing the hooey that makes up large chunks of the Bible.

Multiple corroborating sources? That counts as your evidence? Good to know!

Faith in Russell's Teapot and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For which we have the exact same amount of observable, testable evidence as we do for your God.

You could also call magnetic fields these names (if you believed only in visible causes for all phenomena). All it demonstrates is that you prefer another name and doesn't actually do anything.

Why do you think you don't have the burden of proof for your untestable, unverified God? Who is the burden of proof upon for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Vishnu, Xenu, and Quetzalcoatl?

Not really saying anything here either.

 

[Greg1234]

No. I'm right on point.

Ah ok.

I assume it's hard for you to grok because you can't get past your complete and utter brainwashing.

Must be my creationist intelligence

That's not true at all. Magic does not mean we don't understand it. It mean NOBODY understands it. Because it can't be understood. The impossible has taken place and its cause is your god. Somehow. You need no more explanation than that. The impossible happening is magic. When a reasonable explanation is offered, say, the donkey didn't talk but a ventriloquist made it LOOK like the donkey talked you balk. You prefer the magic. You prefer that the event has no explanation other than your deity. Thus you create a NEED for your deity. That's what "miracles" are. And what are miracles but magic? Fishes, loaves, donkeys... magic.

boy oh boy. See quoted post.

 

[Phred]

Do you think you understand all mysteries, then, and that your wisdom reaches far into times and realms you have never experienced? Why not be an agnostic?

There is stuff that exists. That's weird already.
There is living stuff. Wow.
Some of the living stuff is aware. Huh?
Oh, and some of that living stuff has notions of right and wrong, pangs of guilt, aspirations for what is best... ????

So in reality, the idea that reality inherently contains the potential for life, awareness, and conscience/desire for what is best -- what is the basis for that latent potential?

At least an agnostic says "something full of life, awareness, conscience, and appreciation for what is truly best, COULD be the basis, perhaps"

So you say because things are alive there could be a god. Why? That's a fallacious argument. It just shows a lack of imagination. You say that because things are intelligent and decide things are good and bad, right and wrong there could be a god. Why? That just shows intelligence. In fact, that's evidence AGAINST a god because if there were a god we'd all have the same rights and wrongs imprinted upon us. We don't.

But the Christian God cannot exist if the Christian God is as described in the Bible. The Christian God is by definition dependent upon the Bible to discern it. That means the Christian God is a contradiction and cannot exist.

 

[Phred]

There really is a lot of evidence that there is a God if one is willing to honestly look.

This is not true. This is what believers always say. You can interpret a lot of things to be "evidence" of a god. But WHICH god? Funny how it's always the god of those people around you. Basically Christ in the Western Hemisphere, Allah in the East. Why is that do you think? How can more than half the people in the world be mistaken no matter which group is right? And... by "honestly look" what you mean is "stop objecting and accept what we tell you."

I was over at the neighbors some time back and a friend stopped by who was just coming back from the funeral of a young man,I do not know all the details but the story went something like this. Apparently the young man had something wrong with him and according to his wife he called her and the kids into a room and told them," people say it can't be so but God has been talking to me for about an hour,He told me not to worry about you and the kids that everything would be alright", after that he held them in his arms for a couple of hours and then they went into another room and when they came back he had died. The stories of people who have encountered God are vast in number. The evidence is there.

And before this he would have encountered Mithras, or RA or Zeus. People find that which comforts them. It's evidence but evidence of WHAT? It's evidence that people are scared to death by death. Funny how it's always the friend of a friend too...

 

[selfinflikted]

Fair enough -- it's still creatio ex materia.

It's still magic, also.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Intelligence. And we can observe the manifestation of that as a reflective property in the effect (see man).

So you'll have no problem in describing an incontrovertible, repeatable test to prove and quantify the existence of God, right? Because otherwise it's all just a hypothesis composed of smoke and vapour.

Ah! Argument from ignorance!

We see the same thing in reproducing organisms. Stasis, intelligent adaptation and degradation in the hands of stochastic processes. Don't reproduce, reproduce- same thing.

It really isn't. You're a product of, and different from your parents. They are different from their parents, and all the way back until you reach an organism simple enough to have been created by purely natural processes. A pyramid doesn't reproduce. It has to be a pyramid from the very start.

Multiple corroborating sources? That counts as your evidence? Good to know!

I think the most important part is "consistent with the evidence". Unlike your bible.

You could also call magnetic fields these names (if you believed only in visible causes for all phenomena). All it demonstrates is that you prefer another name and doesn't actually do anything.

There is a difference between "visible", and "observable". Your God has no quantifiable effect on anything. You can't test for him, and you can't use him to produce repeatable effects.

Not really saying anything here either.

Why not? Why do you think the burden of proof is on atheists to disprove your God, but not on you to disprove other fairy stories like Vishnu, Allah, the Morrigan, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You're applying an irrational double standard, which makes your pretence of having any scientific merit to your theories a little laughable.