saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[revrobor]

I do follow the Scripture
scripture does not talk agianst asking those in heaven to pray for us

the referance that people are using are way off
the witch of endor? that is witchcraft and necromancy, seeking to CONTROL the dead, seeking to tell the future

this is not what we are doing, we ask those in heaven to pray for us just like we ask people on earth to pray for us

Where is your evidence that those who are in "Heaven" can even hear us (other than Jesus or the Heavenly Father)?

 

[Rhamiel]

There is no Scriptural evidence to indicate that those who have gone to be with Jesus before us are able to see or hear what is going on here on Earth.

the Gospel according to St.Matthew chapter 2 verse 18
talks about Rachel weeping over the children who were killed

 

[Rhamiel]

Jesus is God, not human, and can do anything He wants.

Jesus is true God and true man
but you are correct, He can do anything He wants

 

[Incariol]

Jesus is God, not human

So you don't believe in the hypostatic union? That Jesus is God and man? Isn't that monophysitism?

 

[Jipsah]

It may make you feel good but that's fantasy stuff.

Doesn't the Bible say that to b absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? That isn't fantasy, is it?

 

[Jipsah]

But what if you're "praying to the dead"..

We've addressed that, haven't we? The dead in Christ are with the Lord.

Worse yet, what if you're praying to demon?

How would that work? Saying "St. Catherine, pray for me." ends up being a prayer to a demon? I don't realy follow that at all.

I'd seriously stop such a futile and devlish practice if you're involved in such.

I'm sorry, but that's simply ridiculous. But lets' look at the possibilities. If I ask St. Catherine to pray for me, the result may be:

A) She can't hear and therefore doesn't pray for me.
B) She hears but doesn't see fit to pray for me.
C) She hears and prays for me.

In either A or B, there's no harm done unless you want to add D that she hears and prays against me. In case C I have someone in Heaven praying for me, which can't be bad.

I don't see any possibilities for demons having anything to do with anything at all in this case. Demons aren't going to pray for me, and God isn't going to pay them any mind if they pray against me. They may choose to annoy me because of my prayer, but they may do the same because I've prayed to the Lord or asked a church brother to pray for me.

 

[revrobor]

So you don't believe in the hypostatic union? That Jesus is God and man? Isn't that monophysitism?

When Jesus was on Earth He was fully God and fully man.

 

[revrobor]

Doesn't the Bible say that to b absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? That isn't fantasy, is it?

Yes it does but that has nothing to do with this subject.

 

[revrobor]

the Gospel according to St.Matthew chapter 2 verse 18
talks about Rachel weeping over the children who were killed

That was probably a supernatural occurrence for a specific purpose. I hope you're not trying to use that as proof people who have died can hear and see us from Heaven.

 

[Fireinfolding]

So Moses standing next to Jesus on the mountain was fantasy?
blasphamy!!!!!!

God is God of the living

Rham, its not bro, it was a vission, look

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mat 17:9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Speaking to this

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law(Moses) and the prophets (Elias);

Its a prophetic type "pointer" the conversation of the Mount points to 'vision of all" (which are the words of the book") these two testifying to the sufferings of Christ (as they on the mount were able to hear)

This is why they dissapeared at the end of the vision and they saw only Christ, because he is "the effect" of every vision, and God spake by the mouth of the prophets by multiplying visions and used simililitudes by them. "They are they which testify of me"... given they speaking of His decease (coming soon) Jesus alone (in accord with he same words God spake by Moses) "Him ye will here" (and likewise follows suit upon the mount) God spake out of the cloud "this is my beloved Son, hear ye Him"


All this shows more as well, given in times past God has indeed spoken by the prophets (they vanishing) Jesus remaining only, shows, but "in these last days" God has spoken to us in His Son.

Its rather beautiful and in accord with whats written

 

[daydreamergurl15]

When Christ was teaching His disciples to pray, He said

"In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name...--Matthew 6:9​

Every prayer that we have in scripture is someone praying to God, so, I don't see why we would pray to anyone but God.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I would like to know why some people think those souls who depart this life and are in the presence of Christ have the same limited capabilities as those people living on earth.

Sometimes I wonder if the Scriptures tells us that people go straight to Heaven when they die. In scripture it seems that Heaven isn't promised until judgment day. Christ Himself said that come judgment day, He will separate the sheep (right hand) from the goats (left) and that those on His right will receive an eternal reward.

1 Thes 4:15-17 tells us that

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.​

Now, I know, tons of people is really to kill this argument but scripture also seems to speak about a prejudged where some go to Paradise and others Hades. And I know tons of people want to argue over Luke 16 and say that it's only a parable...but Christ told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise" and then Revelations 20;12-15 tells us

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Now, here is a description of Heaven that we have:

Revelations 21:1-8
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

My thing is, we tell each other all the time that our loved ones are in Heaven but I wonder if they are in Paradise (if they are indeed in Christ) instead of Heaven as we speak of it. And in Paradise, we don't really have that much of an understanding of what they know. If you look at the story of the rich and poor man, it was the rich man who was in Hades who tried to intercede for his brothers and Abraham said "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded through one rise from the dead..." Now, this is obviously not about prayer nor does it tell us how things in Paradise operates, but I think that was one of the points. We should not put our prayers on those who have died, but to pray specifically to the Father. He's right there. Christ died so that we can be reconciled back to Him.

I guess you can say that some people feel that their prayers are not being heard by God and that's probably possible, but I also think that we should have faith enough to know that if God asks us to pray then we should know that He is there to listen.

 

[Rhamiel]

That was probably a supernatural occurrence for a specific purpose. I hope you're not trying to use that as proof people who have died can hear and see us from Heaven.

it was a supernatural occurrence for a specific purpose
and so is every instance of a saint praying for us
each case is specific
but i have no reason to think it is less likely
those who have died and are in Chirst can hear us
the dead have no power on their own
Christ has all the power

 

[daydreamergurl15]

it was a supernatural occurrence for a specific purpose
and so is every instance of a saint praying for us
each case is specific
but i have no reason to think it is less likely
those who have died and are in Chirst can hear us
the dead have no power on their own
Christ has all the power

So why not just pray to God the Father?
We can say that we believe that saints hear us, but we don't know for sure, nor does scripture tell us that's the case. So, why bother praying to them when we have the Father who is all ears (sort-of-speak)?

 

[American Routes]

Is it frowned upon for a child to ask his parents for advice or help, or for a teenager to ask his teacher for counsel? Or did God not set some in the Church to be teachers and helpers and guides?

But we're not talking about those things. We're talking about the idea of ascribing mystical powers and authorities to the dead and then praying to them.

 

[Rhamiel]

So why not just pray to God the Father?
We can say that we believe that saints hear us, but we don't know for sure, nor does scripture tell us that's the case. So, why bother praying to them when we have the Father who is all ears (sort-of-speak)?

why ever ask other believers in Christ to pray for us?
If God can hear all and is all good and knows what we need we do not need people on earth to pray for us either

God is all good, God is all powerful, but Christians have always prayed for eachother and asked other Christians to pray for us as well
Protestants only ask those who are alive on earth to pray for them

Catholics and Orthodox ask those who are alive in heaven to pray for us as well as those who are alive on earth

But we're not talking about those things. We're talking about the idea of ascribing mystical powers and authorities to the dead and then praying to them.

those who are in christ are described as co-heirs in the kingdom of God
the bible talks about how we were servants but have now become sons and daughters
it is not us who ascribe authoirty but the bible who ascribes authoirty

now all authoirty comes from God, we recognize that, the ability of the saints to hear us in our prayers is not some voodoo dead people power but part of them being alive in Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them

 

[sunlover1]

We've addressed that, haven't we? The dead in Christ are with the Lord.

How do we know who are "Dead in Christ" and who are dead apart from Him?

How would that work? Saying "St. Catherine, pray for me." ends up being a prayer to a demon? I don't realy follow that at all.

I'm sorry, but that's simply ridiculous. But lets' look at the possibilities. If I ask St. Catherine to pray for me, the result may be:

A) She can't hear and therefore doesn't pray for me.
B) She hears but doesn't see fit to pray for me.
C) She hears and prays for me.

In either A or B, there's no harm done unless you want to add D that she hears and prays against me. In case C I have someone in Heaven praying for me, which can't be bad.

I don't see any possibilities for demons having anything to do with anything at all in this case. Demons aren't going to pray for me, and God isn't going to pay them any mind if they pray against me. They may choose to annoy me because of my prayer, but they may do the same because I've prayed to the Lord or asked a church brother to pray for me.

Annoy you?
The devil never comes to 'annoy'
He comes NOT BUT TO
Kill
Steal
Destroy

A scenario you missed:
you pray to "Saint Catherine" for help with
buying a house. Your prayer is "answered"
by the enemy who's heard your prayer and
you get the house.. using the 40 grand you
had saved up.
Come to find out later, there was some issue
and you lose everything.

I dont' mess around when it comes to spiritual
things.. been there done that and am enjoying
the consequences daily.

All because I THOUGHT I wasn't ignorant
concerning spiritual things.

I don't even ask just ANYone (living) to pray for
me ... People can pray manipulatively to which
"god" are THEY praying to? kwim?

 

[American Routes]

those who are in christ are described as co-heirs in the kingdom of God the bible talks about how we were servants but have now become sons and daughters it is not us who ascribe authoirty but the bible who ascribes authoirty

Really? Where does the Bible ever tell us that the dead have mystical poewers or authority to assist us on Earth or that we are to pray to the dead?

now all authoirty comes from God, we recognize that, the ability of the saints to hear us in our prayers is not some voodoo dead people power but part of them being alive in Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them

What verse tells us that the dead can hear our prayers and affect our circumstances on Earth? And even if the Bible did say this, the more important question is, what verse tells us to pray to them?

 

[sunlover1]

Rham, its not bro, it was a vission, look

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mat 17:9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Welcome back Fire.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Welcome back Fire.

Thanks Suncritter, God bless sis