How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[selfinflikted]

Do you mean yourself? If so, where did you go to pursue God?

Well, I wasn't specifically talking about myself (even though it does apply to me, and many others). You offered answers to questions, so I asked.

Where are we going with this? R U really interested in getting saved and getting right with God? Because we can help you with that. But there are other boards on here that are more set up for that sort of thing. A new convert is like a new baby and they can bring you along one baby step at a time. To help you to understand the work that God is doing in your life.

Answers were offered, so I asked. Don't read too much into it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Well, I wasn't specifically talking about myself (even though it does apply to me, and many others).

Well, you can't answer for others, only yourself. So, where did you go to attempt to pursue God?

It isn't a trick question. Generally speaking, none of us can approach God or come close to him on our own. Unless he is the one doing the drawing close, we are pretty well always going to fail.

Therefore, if you have not found God, it is because he has not yet revealed himself to you, and you really don't need to stress about it. God is always the agent of our salvation, not us.

 

[selfinflikted]

Well, you can't answer for others, only yourself. So, where did you go to attempt to pursue God?

Physically and geographically? Home, church, school. Typical places I would've been when I was an adolescent/young man.

It isn't a trick question. Generally speaking, none of us can approach God or come close to him on our own. Unless he is the one doing the drawing close, we are pretty well always going to fail.

Therefore, if you have not found God, it is because he has not yet revealed himself to you, and you really don't need to stress about it. God is always the agent of our salvation, not us.

I've heard that, but I've also heard that whoever seeks him shall find him.

 

[Catherineanne]

Physically and geographically? Home, church, school. Typical places I would've been when I was an adolescent/young man.

Fair enough. Try your own heart; that is where he is. Failing that, next time you are in town and you see a homeless person selling the Big Issue (if you have such a thing in the US), go and buy a copy, look him in the eye and you will see God looking back at you.

I've heard that, but I've also heard that whoever seeks him shall find him.

Yes, whoever seeks will find. But God prompts the seeking.

 

[Jazer]

I've heard that, but I've also heard that whoever seeks him shall find him.

I guess that depends on what your looking for. David was a man that wanted to know the heart of God. There maybe people on this board that just want to know more about science or geology. The Bible does say: "seek and you will find". Could be there are people that just want God to comfort and give them peace. Could be there are people who want set free from the bondage of sin.

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." matt 7 7

 

[Freodin]

I guess that depends on what your looking for. David was a man that wanted to know the heart of God. There maybe people on this board that just want to know more about science or geology. The Bible does say: "seek and you will find". Could be there are people that just want God to comfort and give them peace. Could be there are people who want set free from the bondage of sin.

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." matt 7 7

But the verse that you quoted doesn't state or even imply that it "depends on what you are looking for".

 

[hasone]

It don't matter who pushed you from believing this or that! You won't have anyone to point a finger at, you will stand before God all by yourself. and regardless of who taught you what, and who did this or that isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. you will stand before God and be judged, let me let you in on a little secret, your own mind is keeping the record. I have first hand experience on how this works, I was shown every sinful thing I ever did all at the same time, It doesn't make sense I know, but it was like looking up at a star filled night sky, and I could clearly see tens of thousands of incidences of sinful acts, all at the same time, and again all at the same time I was able to acknowledge each and every act individually, you say this sounds impossible, God is impossible to comprehend, if you think your going to fathem and understand Him you won't, but I assure you someday you will believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is very real, and everything He does, seems to break all laws and physics and perameters of what we know and understand.......one last thought, He said he was going to make the wise look foolish.....so don't get to wise

Since you had not related this experience to me before I made that post, I have not yet said such an experience is impossible. In fact, I have had similar experiences myself, where my mind has expanded and I believed I was seeing my life all at once. I once felt I truly perceived the vastness of the universe and my smallness in relation to it, and that feeling, that event, has had profound repercussions in my life. Yet I did not ascribe any of these experiences to God, as you have. Such experiences are part of the greater human experience and to deny them would, in fact, be bad science on my part.I am further of the opinion that such events are the primary goal of some eastern religions, and are known to them as enlightenment, yet they do not attribute them to the christian god. I would welcome input from an expert on eastern religions, especially buddhism.

I further don't believe that such experiences are completely inaccessible to science, as I have made the leap from the well supported idea that consciousness can be physically manipulated to the less supported idea that consciousness has a physical basis. If this is true, then, experiences such as yours would be possible and explainable without God. Of course, science cannot prove or disprove the existence of such a deity and, of course, such a deity could be doing his, her, or its work through the natural processes that science would come up with to explain an event such as the epiphany you had.

I believe experiences such as the one you describe are of interest to some scientists and that there is research into the neurology of such events. I'm not an expert though, and don't have details, so I would be very curious to hear from one.

It would seem, then, that I am not calling your experience impossible and your assertion to the contrary is false.

Further, you suggest but do not completely assert that I believe that god can be comprehended. A search through my post history will reveal a thread in "exploring christianity" titled "is god bound by logic?", wherein I state:

My conception of god, especially a monotheistic god in the tradition I'm familiar with, is a creature/being/universe/thing that has no limits.

Now, I don't think that I have stated on this board that I believe I am, in fact, limited. I do so now. In that case, an unlimited god would be quite naturally incomprehensible for a limited being such as myself to understand, a point well made by the participants in that thread and one that I accept. Thus your suggestion that I believe that I can comprehend God is false. Compared to such an entity, the wisest man will seem foolish. It is analogous to the manner in which any finite number, no matter how large, is miniscule in comparison to infinity. Even a countable infinity. It seems even smaller when compared to an uncountable infinity. I will not allow this possibility, however, to deter me from seeking wisdom, as I see wisdom to be a good thing.

As for the rest of the substance of your post - that I will be judged by god and be judged harshly if I do not join your religion, this could be true. Yet due to my lack of a belief in god, I do not find this argument effective. You would probably be better served by leading me to a belief in god before attempting it. Furthermore, even if I did believe in god, I would probably be drawn to a religious tradition with a god who is not so harsh. Such traditions can be found outside the umbrella of christianity, and I wouldn't be surprised to find such traditions inside the umbrella of christianity as well.

 

[frankleespeaking]

Since you had not related this experience to me before I made that post, I have not yet said such an experience is impossible. In fact, I have had similar experiences myself, where my mind has expanded and I believed I was seeing my life all at once. I once felt I truly perceived the vastness of the universe and my smallness in relation to it, and that feeling, that event, has had profound repercussions in my life. Yet I did not ascribe any of these experiences to God, as you have. Such experiences are part of the greater human experience and to deny them would, in fact, be bad science on my part.I am further of the opinion that such events are the primary goal of some eastern religions, and are known to them as enlightenment, yet they do not attribute them to the christian god. I would welcome input from an expert on eastern religions, especially buddhism.

I further don't believe that such experiences are completely inaccessible to science, as I have made the leap from the well supported idea that consciousness can be physically manipulated to the less supported idea that consciousness has a physical basis. If this is true, then, experiences such as yours would be possible and explainable without God. Of course, science cannot prove or disprove the existence of such a deity and, of course, such a deity could be doing his, her, or its work through the natural processes that science would come up with to explain an event such as the epiphany you had.

I believe experiences such as the one you describe are of interest to some scientists and that there is research into the neurology of such events. I'm not an expert though, and don't have details, so I would be very curious to hear from one.

It would seem, then, that I am not calling your experience impossible and your assertion to the contrary is false.

Further, you suggest but do not completely assert that I believe that god can be comprehended. A search through my post history will reveal a thread in "exploring christianity" titled "is god bound by logic?", wherein I state:



Now, I don't think that I have stated on this board that I believe I am, in fact, limited. I do so now. In that case, an unlimited god would be quite naturally incomprehensible for a limited being such as myself to understand, a point well made by the participants in that thread and one that I accept. Thus your suggestion that I believe that I can comprehend God is false. Compared to such an entity, the wisest man will seem foolish. It is analogous to the manner in which any finite number, no matter how large, is miniscule in comparison to infinity. Even a countable infinity. It seems even smaller when compared to an uncountable infinity. I will not allow this possibility, however, to deter me from seeking wisdom, as I see wisdom to be a good thing.

As for the rest of the substance of your post - that I will be judged by god and be judged harshly if I do not join your religion, this could be true. Yet due to my lack of a belief in god, I do not find this argument effective. You would probably be better served by leading me to a belief in god before attempting it. Furthermore, even if I did believe in god, I would probably be drawn to a religious tradition with a god who is not so harsh. Such traditions can be found outside the umbrella of christianity, and I wouldn't be surprised to find such traditions inside the umbrella of christianity as well.

Oh I wasn't trying to lead you to Christianity, your way to smart for that! just telling you the facts we will all stand before God and give account of our lives thats what I said thats all I meant, I certianly would not make any judgements on your life or consequences, your clearly not a believer, my experience with seeing all my sin was also in league with a visitation of an angel, much like the TV show "touched by an angel" I know it sounds completely off the wall, and to be sure it was as insane as it sounds, but since that day I have never been the same man, in all sorts of ways, I really don't see how it could be fair, having a man experience what I have, and then for another man never to see anything supernatural and be expected to believe, I struggle with this notion, maybe more will be required of me since I was given so much proof of His existance....I don't know, but I will tell you this, The God I experienced was the one who gave His only begotten Son (Jesus) to die, as the perfect sacrifice for all our sins.........anything eles is only a cheap imitation

 

[Catherineanne]

As for the rest of the substance of your post - that I will be judged by god and be judged harshly if I do not join your religion, this could be true. Yet due to my lack of a belief in god, I do not find this argument effective. You would probably be better served by leading me to a belief in god before attempting it. Furthermore, even if I did believe in god, I would probably be drawn to a religious tradition with a god who is not so harsh. Such traditions can be found outside the umbrella of christianity, and I wouldn't be surprised to find such traditions inside the umbrella of christianity as well.

God does not punish anyone because of what they believe or do not believe. Rather, what we believe or do not believe is its own punishment, and has nothing to do with God.

Our God is one of infinite love, mercy and compassion. He is no more interested in gratuitous punishment than I am in relation to my daughter, and for the same reason; he is not a sadist. There are sadistic concepts of God around, and even sadistic concepts of the Christian God, but these are god made in the image of man, nothing more.

The actual God is one who is MORE moral than the most moral human being you can imagine. To have a God whose morality is either average, below average or downright pathological makes no sense whatever. Such a God is possible, but not in a universe where love exists.

 

[selfinflikted]

Fair enough. Try your own heart; that is where he is.

That's very pretty and poetic, but I'm not sure what it means.

Failing that, next time you are in town and you see a homeless person selling the Big Issue (if you have such a thing in the US), go and buy a copy, look him in the eye and you will see God looking back at you.

The homeless people I've dealt with where I live always try to take something from me. That's not god.

Yes, whoever seeks will find. But God prompts the seeking.

So far, then, no dice.

I guess that depends on what your looking for. David was a man that wanted to know the heart of God. There maybe people on this board that just want to know more about science or geology. The Bible does say: "seek and you will find". Could be there are people that just want God to comfort and give them peace. Could be there are people who want set free from the bondage of sin.

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." matt 7 7

The verse you've quoted is the exact opposite of what I've experienced.

 

[Catherineanne]

That's very pretty and poetic, but I'm not sure what it means.

It means that the best part of you is where God is. You don't have to look outside, because he is inside. The still, small voice is the voice of God.

The homeless people I've dealt with where I live always try to take something from me. That's not god.

No, God is there when you give them something freely and without fear. Then God looks back at you. If you walk past and give nothing you certainly won't see God.

The verse you've quoted is the exact opposite of what I've experienced.

That is because you were looking in the wrong place.

You regard yourself as an atheist. It looks as if it would be more true to say you are a theist who has not yet found God.

 

[Non sequitur]

God does not punish anyone because of what they believe or do not believe. Rather, what we believe or do not believe is its own punishment, and has nothing to do with God.

If your god made something specifically conditional, then that is an indirect punishment.

A mafia boss would be a good analogy.

Our God is one of infinite love, mercy and compassion. He is no more interested in gratuitous punishment than I am in relation to my daughter, and for the same reason; he is not a sadist. There are sadistic concepts of God around, and even sadistic concepts of the Christian God, but these are god made in the image of man, nothing more.

The actual God is one who is MORE moral than the most moral human being you can imagine. To have a God whose morality is either average, below average or downright pathological makes no sense whatever. Such a God is possible, but not in a universe where love exists.

Then I'm perfectly comfortable with your god not sending me to any bad place, because I used the mind that he gave me

 

[AV1611VET]

God put the the Tree of Knowledge there and then told a woman who did not know the difference between good and evil she would die if she ate from it...

How do you know?

You may not realize it, but you have just answered your own dilemma.

It is not recorded in the Bible that God told Eve about the tree, only Adam:

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Yet, when the serpent-beast tempted her, she replied:

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Unless you think Eve is lying to the serpent, then you will have to admit that God discussed this with them beforehand.

Some believe the Fall occurred one year after the Creation Week; and that's what I go with -- this means that Adam & Eve communed with God for a year, before the incident at the tree.

... excuse me God but what does 'die' mean?

I don't believe Eve saved that question for the serpent-beast.

I'm sure she knew exactly what it meant.

You are the one who doesn't know what it means.

Why would God put it there if it was not to be part of his plans?

I have my theory (supposition) as to why.

If you're truly interested, I'll be glad to qv you to it.

The story writers didn't look very deep when they wrote this did they?

You mean the story readers?

So when did these full-grown adults Adam and Eve get married?

On Day 6, BC 4004.

who were the witnesses God and the serpent?

God & the angels.

Adam & Eve did not know what the consequences of their actions would be how could they?

No -- it's you who don't know the consequences of their actions.

they were innocent.

It was the dispensation of Innocence, yes; until the Fall; then the dispensation ended, and the dispensation of Conscience began.

Anyway it's just a story so live with it.

I'll live by it -- thank you.

 

[Jazer]

But the verse that you quoted doesn't state or even imply that it "depends on what you are looking for".

This is from the Sermon on the Mount. I suppose there is more if you want to look at the context.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give * him a stone? [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give * him a serpent? [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? [/FONT]

 

[Cabal]

This is from the Sermon on the Mount. I suppose there is more if you want to look at the context.

That's putting it mildly.

The amount of fine print that should come with that passage could fill another Bible's worth of paper.

 

[frankleespeaking]

God does not punish anyone because of what they believe or do not believe. Rather, what we believe or do not believe is its own punishment, and has nothing to do with God.

Our God is one of infinite love, mercy and compassion. He is no more interested in gratuitous punishment than I am in relation to my daughter, and for the same reason; he is not a sadist. There are sadistic concepts of God around, and even sadistic concepts of the Christian God, but these are god made in the image of man, nothing more.

The actual God is one who is MORE moral than the most moral human being you can imagine. To have a God whose morality is either average, below average or downright pathological makes no sense whatever. Such a God is possible, but not in a universe where love exists.

Revelations 21:8 "But the cowardly, THE UNBELIEVING the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death"....................I would have to say it appears not only here but a few other places that the UNBELIEVING is their sin, and what results in their demise to the lake of fire, so God certianly sends people to hell for what they believe and what they don't believe

 

[hasone]

God does not punish anyone because of what they believe or do not believe. Rather, what we believe or do not believe is its own punishment, and has nothing to do with God.

Our God is one of infinite love, mercy and compassion. He is no more interested in gratuitous punishment than I am in relation to my daughter, and for the same reason; he is not a sadist. There are sadistic concepts of God around, and even sadistic concepts of the Christian God, but these are god made in the image of man, nothing more.

The actual God is one who is MORE moral than the most moral human being you can imagine. To have a God whose morality is either average, below average or downright pathological makes no sense whatever. Such a God is possible, but not in a universe where love exists.

We have here, then, evidence of a strand of christianity with a god who is not so harsh . I hope if god exists he/she/it as as you describe.

Oh I wasn't trying to lead you to Christianity, your way to smart for that! just telling you the facts we will all stand before God and give account of our lives thats what I said thats all I meant, I certianly would not make any judgements on your life or consequences, your clearly not a believer, my experience with seeing all my sin was also in league with a visitation of an angel, much like the TV show "touched by an angel" I know it sounds completely off the wall, and to be sure it was as insane as it sounds, but since that day I have never been the same man, in all sorts of ways, I really don't see how it could be fair, having a man experience what I have, and then for another man never to see anything supernatural and be expected to believe, I struggle with this notion, maybe more will be required of me since I was given so much proof of His existance....I don't know, but I will tell you this, The God I experienced was the one who gave His only begotten Son (Jesus) to die, as the perfect sacrifice for all our sins.........anything eles is only a cheap imitation

As you seek not to judge me, I seek not to judge you. I was very careful not to do so in my post, and if I failed then, well, I am not perfect.

I believe I understand where you're coming from, and I suspect you get where I'm coming from. I propose warm and fuzzies all around

 

[selfinflikted]

It means that the best part of you is where God is. You don't have to look outside, because he is inside. The still, small voice is the voice of God.

The only voice I know is my own (if you mean that "little voice in the back of your head" thing).

No, God is there when you give them something freely and without fear. Then God looks back at you. If you walk past and give nothing you certainly won't see God.

Are there other places I can see god besides homeless people? I'm extremely leery of them.

You regard yourself as an atheist. It looks as if it would be more true to say you are a theist who has not yet found God.

That assessment would've been true about me years ago. Presently, it's not really an accurate description.

 

[Jazer]

That's putting it mildly.

The amount of fine print that should come with that passage could fill another Bible's worth of paper.

There are many books that have been written on the Sermon on the Mount.
Even many books have been written about the beatitudes at the beginning of the Sermon.

Jesus was the greatest teacher that ever lived and this was greatest sermon.

 

[frankleespeaking]

We have here, then, evidence of a strand of christianity with a god who is not so harsh . I hope if god exists he/she/it as as you describe.

this god does exist, he can be found all over these forum pages, one that loves sinful behavior and winks at it to be sure, one that says all paths lead to righteousness, one that see's the bible as simply just another religious book of rules and outdated laws......you have come to the right place if this is the god your looking for