I asked this in another thread but figured I'd start a new thread. Clearly in 1 Thessalonians Paul was expecting Jesus to return while he was alive. If Paul expected him to return, why didn't he????
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Why didn't Jesus return??
- Thread starter St. Paul
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That would mean the Bible has an error in it. If that part is wrong, who know's what else is wrong.
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St. Paul wrote:
It is not as clear to me as it is to you. What about 5:9-10?
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It is not as clear to me as it is to you. What about 5:9-10?
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Adorned
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A) Paul had no idea of the day or hour of a 'return' and was being hopeful. This is assuming a futurist position of a second coming.
B)Paul is referring to the presence of the Lord. The promise of Pentecost. A Spiritual raising in rebirth.
from the YNG:
1 Thess. 4:14-15 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,(in this same manner of death and raising to eternal life)
for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,
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Paul was wrong, but there was no error in anything he wrote in the Bible.
It seems quite clear that Paul was expecting the coming soon, in human terms. But He never said that, even once.
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This is explained in very clear terms in 2 Peter 3:3-10
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that WE which are ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent THEM which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then WE which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Fascinating!! BY THE WORD OF THE LORD this was supposed to happen but it didn't. Why is that? I know some of you are trying to play the little game of pulling verses completely out of context which have nothing to do with these verses but you're simply wrong.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that WE which are ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent THEM which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then WE which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Fascinating!! BY THE WORD OF THE LORD this was supposed to happen but it didn't. Why is that? I know some of you are trying to play the little game of pulling verses completely out of context which have nothing to do with these verses but you're simply wrong.
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Adorned
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Sky is not mentioned either.
The Cloud is the same cloud the Israelites followed in the wilderness and Air is breath. A good Lexicon will show this. Paul and all those alive who remained for the coming presence after Pentecost were indeed seized in the Holy Spirit and made One body. There is no mention of any return, just a parousa, the Presence of the Lord.
BY THE WORD OF THE LORD. This is a promise.
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
This Cloud is the same cloud as in the wilderness and the same mighty rushing wind that baptized Paul and all those believers into one Spirit by the breath of God.
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The WE in this passage did not mean the individuals living at that time. It meant those who were part of the group and would be living when Jesus returned.
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J
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Jesus talked about the events that took place in 70ad at the same time He was talking about the events that will take place at the end of the church age. Jerusalem is what they call a shadow and a type. What God did then with the Hebrew nation He is now doing with the gentiles and the world.
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ptomwebster
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Paul was not expecting Christ to return that soon but the Thessalonians misunderstood his message thinking it was to occur soon, that is why he wrote 2 Thess so soon after I Thess. Had Paul actually thought the return was going to be soon he would not have written 2 Thess.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
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Remember Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven, so he understood the overall plan, it was just unlawful for him to utter certain things. He was only the householder if you will to his specific dispensation, but he understood further.
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Surely the message from the time Jesus first said He would was that we (& Paul) were to be ready for his return at any time. "...like a thief in the night."
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ptomwebster
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The "thief in the night" is not talking about the "any moment" doctrine, it is telling us that the Day of the Lord begins in the evening. From Genesis 1 we have been told the day begins with the evening: "And the evening and the morning were the first day." People tend to think the Lord's day starts when Christ's feet touch the ground and the will be surprised when the Administration of Judgment will have begun while we are still in the flesh. Remember Christ tell us He has Mat_24:22, And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
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