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Constitution's "Natural Born" riddle solved! Read the shocking truth here!

Harpuia

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Precise and accurate.

If the people ever wrest control back from the most disobedient and unfaithful servants, we would do well to take steps to cement this understanding.

Wait, what? Who are you calling servants? Non-Christians? Immigrants? Second generation Americans? This seems pretty subtle to me.

The born in U.S. requirement for President was kept cemented for other reasons involving the small chance that such a person could be collaborating with another nation. For that, I understand the reason why only a person born in the U.S. should be given the chance to be President. However, to make it a requirement that one or both his parents must be born in the U.S. is asinine. You have ripped the chance for a child to lead the country he was BORN in (not to mention he started at a huge disadvantage already), thus already rendering him to second-class citizen status.
 
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Lookingupnow

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First off: Welcome to CF! :wave:
secondly: since the the framers have been dead some 200+ years it doesn't really matter what their opinions were? :confused:
tulc(doesn't expect his opinion is going to matter in 200+ years either) ;)

That's like saying your parents who raised you are stupid and don't matter anymore.

The people who founded the USA were God-loving, God-fearing men. They were devoted to God and to founding a nation based on God's Word.

This is why there is so much freedom in the USA. If the USA were based on a man (dictator) or political movement (communism) or even a non-biblical religion (islam), then the USA would be very different than it is today. There would most certainly be no freedom.

Think about the nations of the world. Every country is founded based on something. Israel was founded based on a homeland for the Jews. Canada and Australia are outposts (Commonwealth's) of the United Kingdom. The USA is different. The USA was founded on Judeo-Christian belief in God and the human freedom that automatically, even naturally, comes with it.

So, yes, it matters what the founders thought. It matters what the founders believed because they established the framework and foundation on which the nation, USA, was built. ...Just like it matters who your parents are and what they taught you, how they raised you.

Paying attention to the founders of the USA and understanding, even practicing, what they believed is the only thing that will save the USA for future generations.
 
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Harpuia

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That's like saying your parents who raised you are stupid and don't matter anymore.

The people who founded the USA were God-loving, God-fearing men. They were devoted to God and to founding a nation based on God's Word.

This is why there is so much freedom in the USA. If the USA were based on a man (dictator) or political movement (communism) or even a non-biblical religion (islam), then the USA would be very different than it is today.

Think about the nations of the world. Every country is founded based on something. Israel was founded based on a homeland for the Jews. Canada and Australia are outposts (Commonwealth's) of the United Kingdom. The USA is different. The USA was founded on Judeo-Christian belief in God and the human freedom that automatically, even naturally, comes with it.

So, yes, it matters what the founders thought. It matters what the founders believed because they established the framework and foundation on which the nation, USA, was built. ...Just like it matters who your parents are and what they taught you, how they raised you.

You also have to adjust what they say to our time as well. Our founding fathers lived in a very different world 230+ years ago. The treatment of other races, women, etc. were different for example. So that has to be taken into effect as well.
 
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Lookingupnow

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You also have to adjust what they say to our time as well. Our founding fathers lived in a very different world 230+ years ago. The treatment of other races, women, etc. were different for example. So that has to be taken into effect as well.

Which is why the civil war was fought and there was a sufferage movement in the 20's. The founders cannot say that all men are created equal and then, in practice, have slaves and refuse women the right to vote.

Back to the "natural born" issue, though. There is no way the founders, who were trying to get away from England, would have intended for a future president to be a dual citizen of England (or any other country) and the USA. In such a case, the loyalties are divided.

On that note, it's kind of funny that one of the first things Obama did was box up a bust of Winston Churchill and ship it back to Great Britain. Given Winston Churchill's history with Kenya and the Mau Mau rebellion that jailed Obama's grandfather, one might question where Obama's loyalties really are, given that he is a citizen of Kenya and the USA.
 
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Maren

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To the OP:

Your reasoning is sound based on the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers of America and it's Constitution.

The problem is, over the last 60 years or so, a large contingent of Americans cannot and do not identify with the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers because they are not like them.

A large and growing number of Americans are anti-God, anti-human, pro-godless government, pro- "mother earth". These people have NOTHING in common with the people who began the USA and framed the Constitution that guides it.

Since they cannot or will not understand or agree with the highly religious founders of America, they want to live in opposition to the Constitution as well as the God who created them.

The only people who care about the Constitution and all it's explicit references to the Creator are those who are like-minded with the framers of the USA and it's Constitution - BELIEVING/PRACTICING CHRISTIANS.

Sorry, this is revisionist history. Yes, there were framers that were religious but there were just as many that were not. George Washington, according to his pastor, rarely went to church (much like modern day Americans). Benjamin Franklin was agnostic at the time the country was founded.

And most importantly, to the OP, Thomas Jefferson was not Christian -- he did not believe that Jesus was God. He liked many of the stories of the Bible and felt Jesus was a great teacher -- to that end he created his own version of the Bible where he removed any reference to the miracles of Jesus, as well as any references to Jesus' divinity.

As such, "Nature's God" as it appears in the Declaration of Independence is not Jesus/the Christian God. It is part of the reason it is left as "Nature's God", an ambiguous term that is religiously neutral. Further, there are zero references to God in the Constitution.

As far as "Natural Born Citizen", that was a political concept that was well known at the time of the writing of the Constitution. There are two main theories of "natural born" that we know were operative at the time of the writing of the Constitution. One was the English Common law definition, which basically is the same as the current US interpretation where any child born in the country is "natural born" -- as opposed to naturalized. And I must point out, to create the original US laws, the Founders basically "borrowed" English Common law -- so there is a strong reason to care about the English common law definition of "natural born citizen". The other theory was that of Vattel, who more or less agreed with Pennmark, that the father must be a citizen.

The truth is, however, neither side could ever convince the other. Based on the fact that the Constitution does not define which of the two theories (or some other idea of natural born the Founders believed in) indicates that neither side was able to convince enough people to get their theory added to the Constitution. Instead, they left it ambiguous and undefined. We have no actual evidence of what the Founders, as a group, intended (though plenty of evidence about what some individual Founders believed).

Because there is no "mandate" on this issue, the Supreme Court and US law have been the driving factors on what determines a "Natural Born Citizen". And current US law, as well as current Supreme Court precedent, set up "natural born citizenship" by birth in the US or birth to a single parent that is a US citizen.

I understand many of you don't like this but this is current US law. If you don't like it, feel free to petition Congress to change US law and/or to pass a Constitutional Amendment to define "Natural Born Citizen" more to your liking. Beyond that, your opinion of how "natural born citizen" should be defined doesn't matter since it is currently defined by law.
 
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jayem

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As such, "Nature's God" as it appears in the Constitution is not Jesus/the Christian God. It is part of the reason it is left as "Nature's God", an ambiguous term that is religiously neutral. Further, there are zero references to God in the Constitution.

Not to be nit-picking, but that phrase is in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. The D of I is essentially a political document and has no legal force. The only God-reference in the Constitution is in the signature:

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth."

And it should be instructive that the language also includes the age of the USA, a totally secular reference.

The other points of your post are spot on.
 
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Maren

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Not to be nit-picking, but that phrase is in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. The D of I is essentially a political document and has no legal force. The only God-reference in the Constitution is in the signature:

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth."

And it should be instructive that the language also includes the age of the USA, a totally secular reference.

The other points of your post are spot on.

Thanks for the catch, I've fixed the post. I obviously meant the DoI, since two sentences later I state that there are no references to God in the Constitution.
 
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tulc

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That's like saying your parents who raised you are stupid and don't matter anymore.
I'd say it's more like not being all that concerned about what your great-great-great-great grandparents opinion was. It's interesting but hardly relevant. :wave:


The people who founded the USA were God-loving, God-fearing men. They were devoted to God and to founding a nation based on God's Word.
No, not really. That's the myth that some people want you to believe.

This is why there is so much freedom in the USA. If the USA were based on a man (dictator) or political movement (communism) or even a non-biblical religion (islam), then the USA would be very different than it is today. There would most certainly be no freedom.
uhmmm England isn't free? France? Italy? lots of other countries? All of them were founded on different things but they're free.


Think about the nations of the world. Every country is founded based on something. Israel was founded based on a homeland for the Jews. Canada and Australia are outposts (Commonwealth's) of the United Kingdom. The USA is different. The USA was founded on Judeo-Christian belief in God and the human freedom that automatically, even naturally, comes with it.
I'm sorry. Are you implying Canada and Australia aren't free? Because if you're not then your analogy doesn't actually hold up. For your analogy to hold water wouldn't only the USA be free and all others would be ruled by dictators? :confused:

So, yes, it matters what the founders thought. It matters what the founders believed because they established the framework and foundation on which the nation, USA, was built. ...Just like it matters who your parents are and what they taught you, how they raised you.
Nope. See above. :wave:

Paying attention to the founders of the USA and understanding, even practicing, what they believed is the only thing that will save the USA for future generations.
So...women shouldn't vote, slavery is ok and only landowners should have a voice in government? :sorry:
tulc(too name a few opinions held by the founders) :)
 
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jayem

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Think about the nations of the world. Every country is founded based on something. Israel was founded based on a homeland for the Jews. Canada and Australia are outposts (Commonwealth's) of the United Kingdom. The USA is different. The USA was founded on Judeo-Christian belief in God and the human freedom that automatically, even naturally, comes with it.

If the US was founded on anything, it was founded on rebellion. Rebellion against established authority. Opposing--or at the very least questioning--the authority of religion and churches was part of that.
 
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Ringo84

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to founding a nation based on God's Word.

Nope.

A large and growing number of Americans are anti-God, anti-human, pro-godless government, pro- "mother earth".

Build up that straw man so you can knock him down!

The only people who care about the Constitution and all it's explicit references to the Creator are those who are like-minded with the framers of the USA and it's Constitution - BELIEVING/PRACTICING CHRISTIANS.

"You can't understand our Constitution cause you're not a Christian!"

Malarkey. The Constitution was written for the Christian and non-Christian alike. It doesn't "belong" to one religious group. And neither does the country.
Ringo
 
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DaisyDay

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Which is why the civil war was fought and there was a sufferage movement in the 20's. The founders cannot say that all men are created equal and then, in practice, have slaves and refuse women the right to vote.
So you want to have it both ways (original intent and revised intent) or do you want to rescind civil rights for women and minorities?

Back to the "natural born" issue, though. There is no way the founders, who were trying to get away from England, would have intended for a future president to be a dual citizen of England (or any other country) and the USA. In such a case, the loyalties are divided.
Obama is not a dual citizen; he is an American.

On that note, it's kind of funny that one of the first things Obama did was box up a bust of Winston Churchill and ship it back to Great Britain. Given Winston Churchill's history with Kenya and the Mau Mau rebellion that jailed Obama's grandfather, one might question where Obama's loyalties really are, given that he is a citizen of Kenya and the USA.
He is not a citizen of Kenya nor of Great Britain - he is American, natural born.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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If the US was founded on anything, it was founded on rebellion. Rebellion against established authority. Opposing--or at the very least questioning--the authority of religion and churches was part of that.

Well, U.S. society was founded on rebellion, U.S. government became more about stifling that rebellion when they realized how dangerous it was (consequently the ones who ended up expanding the scope of the federal government tended to be states' rights leaders).
 
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Nathan Poe

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Question: If "dual citizenship" disqualifies someone for the office of the President, doesn't that eliminate Christians, who consider themselves (or at least are supposed to consider themselves) citizens of the Kingdom of God, not any kingdom of man?

"In this world, but not of it," and all that?

Or is that -- like so many other Christian principles -- not relevant when seeking political power?
 
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FaithLikeARock

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Question: If "dual citizenship" disqualifies someone for the office of the President, doesn't that eliminate Christians, who consider themselves (or at least are supposed to consider themselves) citizens of the Kingdom of God, not any kingdom of man?

"In this world, but not of it," and all that?

Or is that -- like so many other Christian principles -- not relevant when seeking political power?

You're not going to get far with that one. I've been trying the "If God made heaven to be the Christian nation, isn't it blasphemous to declare the United States as a Christian nation?" and they tend to just go around it.
 
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DaisyDay

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The only people who care about the Constitution and all it's explicit references to the Creator are those who are like-minded with the framers of the USA and it's Constitution - BELIEVING/PRACTICING CHRISTIANS.
Which explicit references to the Creator in the Constitution do you find most compelling?

;)
 
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Nathan Poe

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You're not going to get far with that one. I've been trying the "If God made heaven to be the Christian nation, isn't it blasphemous to declare the United States as a Christian nation?" and they tend to just go around it.


perhaps -- but I am looking forward to watching them tapdance.
 
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tulc

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Which is why the civil war was fought and there was a sufferage movement in the 20's. The founders cannot say that all men are created equal and then, in practice, have slaves and refuse women the right to vote.
Which is why, while interesting, their opinions are beside the point. :wave:

Back to the "natural born" issue, though. There is no way the founders, who were trying to get away from England, would have intended for a future president to be a dual citizen of England (or any other country) and the USA. In such a case, the loyalties are divided.
Then they should have said so. :)


On that note, it's kind of funny that one of the first things Obama did was box up a bust of Winston Churchill and ship it back to Great Britain. Given Winston Churchill's history with Kenya and the Mau Mau rebellion that jailed Obama's grandfather, one might question where Obama's loyalties really are, given that he is a citizen of Kenya and the USA.
Yeah, how dare he replace the bust of Churchill with a bust of a Republican! :mad: Been here?
The White House Replaces Churchill Bust - Newsweek
from article said:
A bust of Abraham Lincoln—Obama's historical hero—now sits in its place. A White House spokesperson says the Churchill bust was removed before Obama's inauguration as part of the usual changeover operations, adding that every president puts his own stamp on the Oval Office.
I also thought this was interesting:
also from article said:
But the British press, as is its wont, smells a snub.
if the founding fathers had a hard time with people who had dual citizenship, how hard of a time do you think they'd have with someone who take sides with the British against an American President? :scratch:
tulc(just curious) :wave:
 
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Lookingupnow

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So you want to have it both ways (original intent and revised intent) or do you want to rescind civil rights for women and minorities?

Obama is not a dual citizen; he is an American.

He is not a citizen of Kenya nor of Great Britain - he is American, natural born.

He is considered a citizen of Kenya because his father is Kenyan.

Kenya believes that Obama, himself, was born there and they are building a monument to that fact.

Prior to his election as a Senator, it was all over the news that Obama was "Kenyan-born", meaning "born in Kenya".

He is definitely not a natural-born American citizen, even by his own admission.
 
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tulc

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He is considered a citizen of Kenya because his father is Kenyan.
You do realize there was no Kenya when President Obama was born, right? :wave:

Kenya believes that Obama, himself, was born there and they are building a monument to that fact.
Link where they say it? Plus? People can build monuments to whatever they like. Heck I saw a statue to the Pied Piper of Hamelin Picture of Hamelin - Sculpture of the Pied Piper of Hamelin. that doesn't mean he was born there. :)

Prior to his election as a Senator, it was all over the news that Obama was "Kenyan-born", meaning "born in Kenya".
Nice! I haven't seen anyone trot this myth out for a while, been here?
snopes.com: AP Reports Obama as 'Kenyan-Born'

He is definitely not a natural-born American citizen, even by his own admission.
Actually? He is. :wave:
tulc(he even has a birth certificate!) :thumbsup:
 
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