Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

[listed]

What exactly do you mean? Romans 7 is Paul's struggle with the flesh and it was a present struggle that he had, not a past struggle. He writes in the present tense, not past tense.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Salvation doesn't make a person "sinlessly perfect". We are not "sinless" but we do "sin less"...IOW, we don't continue living IN sin, because we have been freed from the penalty and power of sin.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I think that in Romans 7 Paul points out both the flesh and the spirit are at war with each other. I identify with Paul's statement in verses 24 and 25.

 

[sheina]

Believing that we could not achieve sinless perfection is the same as believing we will remain in our sins.

This is against the Scripture teaching.

Here is one of it:

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

Satan dislike this, he taught: Christ will save his people in their sin.

That is NOT sinless perfection! If we all were sinlessly perfect, then the Christian would never die. Ever think about that? Do you ever get sick? The ENTIRE creation is under the curse of sin, like it or not.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Why does the body need "redemption" if it becomes "sinless" when a person is saved?

 

[sheina]

I think that in Romans 7 Paul points out both the flesh and the spirit are at war with each other. I identify with Paul's statement in verses 24 and 25.

I agree with you there.

 

[listed]

Do you know that a Walk after the Spirit will lead you to keep and obey the law of God, in order He might fulfill the righteousness of the law in you. When will you come to this realization?

The whole of Romans chapter 7 is telling us about a law of sin and death in our body, which originated to the carnal mind, which is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, keeping us doing what evil is, despite we want to do what good is, because we have no power to do it from our own. The remedy found in Christ. Having His mind that replaced our carnal mind, we will be brought in to subjection to the law of God.

Which mind? The mind of Christ, for it is impossible with his carnal mind.

Take attention on what Paul said: "With the mind I my self serve the law of God." (Romans 7:25), After serving the law, he came in harmony with the law demands and just then, "there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:1). Serving the law is walking after the Spirit.

The spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit that resides in Paul's mind replacing the carnal mind, released him from the law of sin and death that dominate him, which originated from his carnal mind, and further enable him to serve the law of God (Romans 8:2), this makes him not under condemnation of the law.

But without the mind of Christ, the flesh could not produce righteousness and the law could not justify him, this makes all men comes under condemnation of the law. God send Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh, and with his perfect obedience, he condemn, he conquered, he over ruled the power of sin in him (Romans 8:3).

This is an example for us, that if we walk as He had walked, having His mind and walk after the Holy Spirit, we too might condemn the sin in us, and from a man that was not subject to the law of God, we becomes those who has the righteousness of the law in us (Romans 8:4).

First I would like to know how you get serving the law is walking in the spirit from Romans 8:1.

Do we have 2 active minds? A carnal one and a spiritual one.

Is our carnal mind and the physical body the same thing? What is Paul talking about that sins? Is the carnal mind or body saved or redeemed or is it the soul?

Jesus talks about rest for the soul and the sabbath seems to be a rest for the body.

 

[Arthur57]

That is NOT sinless perfection! If we all were sinlessly perfect, then the Christian would never die. Ever think about that? Do you ever get sick? The ENTIRE creation is under the curse of sin, like it or not.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Why does the body need "redemption" if it becomes "sinless" when a person is saved?

Sinless perfection in this side of world concern with the mind, the character, the heart, not the body.

A sinless body you will receive at Christ second coming, this completed the whole person in you, in the likeness and image of God, mind and body, before flying to meet Christ in the clouds and together with Him and the angels to heaven.

1 Corrinthians 15:42-54.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory

 

[Arthur57]

First I would like to know how you get serving the law is walking in the spirit from Romans 8:1.

Just read Romans 7:25 - Romans 8:4, you will found out that walking after the Spirit, is living according to the mind of Christ, which Paul said, serving the law. Read further to Romans 8:9, you will found out that carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, thus the mind of Christ is subject to the law of God, because only with this mind Paul (and us) can serve the law (7:25).

Do we have 2 active minds? A carnal one and a spiritual one.

No! By nature, men only have their carnal mind.

This mind is not subject to the law of God, thus, bring condemnation to all men for their sins. Christ came to save men from their sin and not in their sin, this need a change of mind, from a mind that is not subject to the law of God, to a mind that is subject to the law of God. And whose mind that is subject to the law of God, if the mind of men is carnal? The mind of Christ.

You can't have both of them.

But when you live with the mind of Christ, your body is still the same sinful flesh, where old habits remains, and sent signal to your brain. Therefore, the body too need to be subjected to the law of God, to be disciplined.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Is our carnal mind and the physical body the same thing? What is Paul talking about that sins? Is the carnal mind or body saved or redeemed or is it the soul?

Carnal mind is not same with the physical body.
What Paul talks about the law of sin and death in his body, is the law of his carnal mind, which is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, never indeed can be.

The whole you would be saved or died. And what is the whole you? What it consist?

Jesus talks about rest for the soul and the sabbath seems to be a rest for the body.

This is not relevant to this topic.

 

[Elder 111]

What exactly do you mean? Romans 7 is Paul's struggle with the flesh and it was a present struggle that he had, not a past struggle. He writes in the present tense, not past tense.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Salvation doesn't make a person "sinlessly perfect". We are not "sinless" but we do "sin less"...IOW, we don't continue living IN sin, because we have been freed from the penalty and power of sin.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Should it not be that we do not sin at all? If we are not under the law, which many contents, is the removal of the law, then we can not sin. Is that not your position also?

 

[Deut 5:29]

What the Old Testament Law Cannot Do:

It cannot justify (Acts 13:38-39; Galatians 2:16).
It cannot redeem (Romans 3:24-31; Galatians 3:13-14).
It cannot give an inheritance (Romans 4:13-14).
It cannot control sin in man (Romans 7:7-23; 8:2).
It cannot free from sin and death (Romans 8:2).
It cannot free a sinner from condemnation (Romans 8:1-4).
It cannot bring righteousness (Romans 8:4).
It cannot impart the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2).
It cannot free from the curse (Galatians 3:10,14).
It cannot impart grace (Galatians 5:4).
It cannot enable a man to obey (Hebrews 7:18).
It cannot make perfect (Hebrews 7:19).

As the above Scripture states, the law is unable to do more than it is able to do.

The purpose of the law is to reveal sin and lead men to Christ. (Romans 3:19-20; 7:12-13; 1Timothy 1:9-10; Galatians 3:24-25).

What are the requirements of the Old Testament Law? Galatians 3:10 speaks of a two-fold requirement:

Continual obedience and obedience in all things. (Deuteronomy 11:22; 27:26; James 2:10)

This is why no man can have righteousness through the law; as sinners we cannot fulfill its high demands.

So, what you're saying is, you have no understanding why God gave us His laws or what they are for.
Why didn't you just say so up front instead of beating around the bush.

 

[Deut 5:29]

Walk after/in the Spirit:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh is to keep God's laws.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Walking in the Spirit and not fullfiling the lusts of the flesh is to be keeping God's commandments.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Obeying God's laws produce the fruits of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Of course there is no law against obeying the law. The fruits of the Spirit is the result of keeping the law of God.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Yes we have, and in doing so we have quit living our old ways and begun living God's way according to His ways which are layed out in His laws.

You seem to know all the scriptures, you just don't seem to have any idea what they mean.

 

[Stryder06]

Did Moses get a description or see it? If it was a copy as in replica Moses would have to have seen it. I think Moses was an increditable artist.

Moses got an exact description of it.
Exodus 25:8And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.



Moses wasn't as much of an incredible artist as he was an incredible servant, obedient down to the letter.


Hope you had a good holiday weekend.

 

[Stryder06]

Yes but they were not given the Love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the HS.

How do you know that? Don't you know that all good things come from above? David is quoted as being a man after God's own heart. Moses, like Abraham, was God's friend. How else could they love God if they didn't have the love of God placed in them by God?

 

[MamaZ]

So, what you're saying is, you have no understanding why God gave us His laws or what they are for.
Why didn't you just say so up front instead of beating around the bush.

His law you keep insisting that He gave to us was actually the covenant between He is Isreal. We have a new covenant. We are now new creations in Christ. We walk after the Spirit and not after the law. For the life I have now has set me from the law of sin and death.. For it is in the fact that one is born again from the Spirit of God. Not if one is walking after what is written in the OT law. Life is in the Spirit. Not in the law for the law brings death. I keep my eyes on Christ who is the author and the finisher of my faith. Not on the law which brings condemnation and death.

 

[MamaZ]

How do you know that? Don't you know that all good things come from above? David is quoted as being a man after God's own heart. Moses, like Abraham, was God's friend. How else could they love God if they didn't have the love of God placed in them by God?

Yes David is noted as being a man after Gods own heart. But the Spirit did not come to indwell people until Christ. They still had to go to the temple to worship. We are the temple. Do you ever see David calling himself the temple of God?

 

[MamaZ]

We are to be perfect in love as God is. For God is Love and not law.

 

[MamaZ]

So, in order not to come under condemnation of the law, what should you do?

Be born again and washed in the blood of Jesus and walk in the Spirit and power that God has given us so freely with His Spirit and Grace. What will the law do for you?

 

[Arthur57]

Originally Posted by Arthur57

So, in order not to come under condemnation of the law, what should you do?
​

Be born again and washed in the blood of Jesus and walk in the Spirit and power that God has given us so freely with His Spirit and Grace. What will the law do for you?

But that walk after the Spirit doesn't make you perfect and sinless as what you believe, right? This means, you keep sinning from time to time, and thus coming back again under condemnation of the law, for if you admit you did sin, you admitted there is a law you break.

 

[visionary]

So God didn't treat man the same since Yeshua's visit?

 

[Stryder06]

Yes David is noted as being a man after Gods own heart. But the Spirit did not come to indwell people until Christ. They still had to go to the temple to worship. We are the temple. Do you ever see David calling himself the temple of God?

A) What does the temple have to do with loving God

B) The body has always been the temple of God.

The temple was God's meeting place with the people corporately. And the scriptures tell us not to forsake the gathering together of ourselves, so it's not like we're not still suppose to come together to worship.

 

[Stryder06]

We are to be perfect in love as God is. For God is Love and not law.

The law is love. Why would you say that it isn't. What about the law itself is not loving?

 

[from scratch]

I wonder if the law crowd can produce a Scripture saying that the law is love.