Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

[Arthur57]

Propose it yet again and I shall take a crack at it.Teehehee haw teehehee.

Try this:

Ephesians 2:15 - Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

There is a law abolished, which contained in ordinances, and there is a law established, means exalted, up hold and glorified, means the author admit the authority and jurisdiction of the law remains for him, despite his new faith in Christ as a Jew.

 

[Arthur57]

What is the purpose then of being obedient to a superceded covenant that has no jurisdiction? Now I also ask what do spirituall minded people do? Do they do the works of the law in the flesh. For what? To satisfy a social demand? It avails nothing. It proves nothing. If you were to meet eiither of my neighbors in public except on Saturday - one having no use for religious connection and the other a devout SDA - you wouldn't know the difference between the two. They both act the same on the outside.

Spiritual minded people do the things of the law. Their deeds are in harmony with the law demands, thus, the law could only justify them, otherwise the law condemn them for their sins.

For what purpose do the law pushers push the law? Is it not for righeousness. You have indicated this is so in 2 previous posts. If one violates the law according to it they can't be righteous. Therefore obedience to the law is for righteousness and self righteousness. Otherwise one isn't righteous because of violation of the law. Jesus said one can't enter heaven with this righteousness. IOW righteousness of the law is worthless in relation to eternal life.

We keep the law not for seeking righteousness by our own strength, for this is self righteousness and it is sin, the wage is death.

We keep the law because that is what God ask from us since the creation of Adam. But only by faith in Christ, the obedience is accepted.

We keep the law out of love to Christ and fulfilling his demands.

We keep the law because there is God's law to be obeyed. If there is no law there is no transgression and sin is not imputed, and this could not happen in the Kingdom of God, for the fact all men has sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

We keep the law because sin is transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death.

If you feel hard to accept these truth, look this way:

There is God Almighty and us sinners in the world. He gave us a law that contains His great principle of love, the Ten Commandments, the law that brought the knowledge of sin to men, the law which is eternal, for God is love is eternal.

The law demands perfect obedience, no matter how you get it. But with your own strength you could not fulfill the righteous demands of the law, because you are carnal and the law is spiritual, carnal minded people is enmity against God and not subject to the law of God. This righteousness is self righteousness.

The only way to fulfill the righteous demands of the law is through faith in Christ, where the Spirit shed the love of God in your heart and bring your mind in subjection to the law of God. This righteousness is obedience of faith. This obedience change your character, from a sinner justified by faith without having none of righteousness whatsoever to present to God, to a man righteous in and out of himself, and since this is the result of obedience of faith, he will get God justification for his faith, he stand righteous before God in his own righteousness, a righteousness imparted from Christ for he had kept the law with faith in Christ. This is what Paul said: the law doers will be justified. And this is the qualification for heaven and eternal life, to be righteous in and out of yourself, not a sinner covered with Christ righteousness.

Rev. 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. "It is not saying: blessed are those Christ believers - or blessed are those who is justified for their faith - but "Blessed are they who do the commandments.

What happen to the others?

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev. 22:11.

Jesus gives a clear distinction between the righteous and holy people with the unjust and filthy people. And sinners put their hope and faith solely on Christ imputed righteousness will be found in the category of unjust and filthy people, for that is exactly what they are - UNJUST, UNRIGHTEOUS people. Especially those who reject his law of the Ten Cs. Never would they be made righteous people for the they throw away the law which is God's standard of righteousness.

 

[Arthur57]

]Does this include Christans? [/COLOR]No because their righteousness is imputed as illustrated in Roman 4:1-9. So who does the law apply to? I Tim 1:9-10 - 9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Does this include Christans?

Sure it does. All men are subject to the law of God, those who is against the law will die, those who conforms to the law demands will be justified.

 

[Arthur57]

Only by faith and empowered by the Holy Spirit, a man could perform what the law demands, which is righteousness by faith.

The challenge remains open for the naming of such an individual. Paul was given as an example of this and yet he testifies as a Christian he doesn't qualify for this honor and that even with braggin rights.Not with out proof texts can such a thing be established. That means ignoring other Scriptures to the contrary. Those teaching and influencing the Gentiles to do so were not under the authority of the Apostles as they claimed. The Apostles said they didn't have the authority to do such. Further more they were called destroyers (the meaning of subverting). They then were given no such command to keep the law of Moses. Paul openly taught that one doesn't need to submit to that law as argued in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians and Timothy.[/quote]

You will get many names from the bible, those who were justified by their faith, those who has the righteousness of faith.

in all his epistle concerning the law, mainly Paul is against those who seek self righteousness through obedience, next against false teacher teaching his believers to add works of the law (circumcision, ceremonial laws, feast days), he never indicates that he is against the law of God, the Ten Cs. On the contrary he established this law.

You may name whatever text you think is a proof that Paul is against the Ten Cs. I will prove it otherwise.

 

[Arthur57]

Then we lose our justification every time the flesh sins and need to be redeemed all over again. The problem is that the flesh isn't redeemed. So what sins the flesh or the soul?

Justification doesn't happen when you sin but when you repent.

1 john 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! Romans 6:1.

Do you forget that Christ had redeemed us once and for all?

 

[11822]

Observing the 4th is not necessary for salvation. I don't see one day more special than another but i do see 9 out of 10 commandments are taught as NT doctrine. The last 6 are taught throughout the New testament and the first 3 are obviously still Gods commandments to us.

 

[Arthur57]

Where oh where does Paul direct the law for observance of the Christian? You said he teaches the law. I ask where does he teach obedience to the law for the Christian?

Romans 2:12-16.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Romans 3:19,20.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:31
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:15.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Romans 7:7-13.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.



This is the proof that all men are subject to the law of God. Which law? The law that reveals the sin in us, the Ten Commandments.

If you can proof otherwise, you are welcome.

 

[Arthur57]

Would you kindly explain how the 10 Cs describe love?

Is this question because you don't understand, or it is because you want to refute me?

Nevertheless, let Jesus Christ himself and Paul answer your question:

Matthew 22:35-40.
35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 19:17-19.
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



Romans 13:8-9.

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Picking up some laws from the Ten Cs to tell us what love is to our neighbor.


And, without mentioning it, but the commandments 1-4, shows our love to God.

 

[Pythons]

There was only "one" law and within it are Moral and Ceremonial commandments.....
...There was no such thing as "two laws" within the Old Covenant.

 

[Elder 111]

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That is correct.

That whole law in what context? Whole law of the land or whole law of the ten? What indication in the context is there ti show that James means circumcision or passover, or morning and even sacrifices?

 

[Elder 111]

The reason I asked is because the Ark of the covenant is nowhere to be found on earth. but is sighted in heaven after the destruction of the Temple. I'mkinda wondering if it got transported to heaven. I'm not sure what Moses saw to be copied. He must have been some artist to get a detailed picture to the artisans who made it.

The on in Heaven, that is the original. Hebrews makes that point very plain. 7,8,9.
Chap 8: 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

 

[Stryder06]

There was only "one" law and within it are Moral and Ceremonial commandments.....
...There was no such thing as "two laws" within the Old Covenant.

You sure about that? Would you say that God gave the Isrealites a commandment to love Him and their neighbors? Was that part of the OC?

 

[Stryder06]

The reason I asked is because the Ark of the covenant is nowhere to be found on earth. but is sighted in heaven after the destruction of the Temple. I'mkinda wondering if it got transported to heaven. I'm not sure what Moses saw to be copied. He must have been some artist to get a detailed picture to the artisans who made it.

I've wondered the same thing. Since scripture is silent though on what happened to the ark one can only theorize. It could have been captured when Jerusalem was destoryed, or taken into hidding and lost to civilization.

And Moses did get a detailed description, God was very thourough and told him exactly what to do and how to make everything that was a part of the temple. That's why there is great significance tied up in the tabrenacle that Moses built. Since it was a copy of the one in heaven, that means that everything on earth was revealing a hevenly trut. So if the ark contained the law on earth, that must mean that the ark in heaven contains the law as well.

 

[Mose]

ELDER 111
You proved for yourself that we are not to attempt to keep the Law nor are we able to keep the Law. "What then? shall we sin, {because we are not under the law,} but under grace? God forbid. Rom" 6:15

We cannot help but sin but not being under the Law is not an excuse to willfully sin.

When the human seed of Jesus was in Solomon he wrapped himself in the Hebrew Alphabete identifying himself as the WORD OF GOD. On the night of his arrest he was in the mount in prayer to God asking if there was any way God could take the cup of death from him. The human body is weak and that is the reason why Jesus was called upon as our sacrifice because he was without sin.Jesus also repeated his plea to God to remove the cup of suffering if it were possible, thus ending his prayer with not my will but thine will be done.

This is how Jesus records his struggle that night with his human body. Psa. 119:176 "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments."

 

[from scratch]

Romans 2:12-16.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I find no command here to observe the law. If the Gentiles observed the sabbath, why do we have chapter 14 and Col 2:16? Is it the law of Moses the Gentiles observed? Is that Paul's point? As to the inference that all mankind is obligated to the law I once again refer you to I Tim 1:9-10 which excludes the Christian.

Romans 3:19,20.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This again has a specific limit and it is to those that are under the law. We have two verses in a row ye are not under the law and we are not under the law 6:14, 15. Romans 7:6 now we are delivered from the law. Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law...

Romans 3:31
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Your strongest supporting verse. I still ask what does establish mean. I do realize that a definition was provided. Do the first 3 chapters support the idea that Paul is trying to establish obligation to the law? I sure don't think so. It has been pointed out that one of the things Paul is doing is addressing the hypocrisy of the Jew and Jewish Christian in the demand for the keeping of the law. Since we have chapter 14 I don't think that Paul is trying to push obligation to the law. Bottom line I think that Paul is stating that we acknodledge/admit the law exists.

Romans 6:15.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Is Paul promoting the law or grace? What is Paul saying God forbid to; shall we sin, that we are not under the law or under grace? I think that he is saying God forbid that we should sin and use the reason that we are under grace having no obligation to the law.

Romans 7:7-13.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

I already pointed out v 6 which says we are delivered from the law. That is the conclusion drawn from his illustration in the previous 5 verses. Paul here makes no comment pertaining to obligation of the law.

This is the proof that all men are subject to the law of God. Which law? The law that reveals the sin in us, the Ten Commandments.

If you can proof otherwise, you are welcome.

Nice try and I did. Thanks for congratulating me in advance.

 

[from scratch]

Is this question because you don't understand, or it is because you want to refute me?

Hmmm! what should I say, guilty as charged which still doesn't answer the question, that I don't believe the truth or am ignorant. Take your pick.

Nevertheless, let Jesus Christ himself and Paul answer your question:

Matthew 22:35-40.
35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How does this explain or show that the 10 Cs describe love? Nothing even refers to the 10 Cs in the above quote. Jesus even says something other than the 10 Cs are greater. Those 2 commandments aren't in the 10 Cs.

Matthew 19:17-19.
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is Jesus addressing a Christian or a skeptic unbeliever trying to make a fool out of God who is teaching something that he doesn't believe? Is Jesus teaching that one can have access to eternal life (salvation) through observing the law? That would be contrary to the OT.

Romans 13:8-9.

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Picking up some laws from the Ten Cs to tell us what love is to our neighbor.

The 10 Cs don't teach any close to love. All as in 100% are direct commands none of which involve love. IOW all the 10 Cs can be done without love.

And, without mentioning it, but the commandments 1-4, shows our love to God.

No shows obligation to the COI to whom the law is given. Commanded love isn't love and any one knows this and that love is hollow - a whited suplecure that is very black inside. Real love is always earned and a voluntary act.

 

[from scratch]

There was only "one" law and within it are Moral and Ceremonial commandments.....
...There was no such thing as "two laws" within the Old Covenant.

 

[from scratch]

That whole law in what context? Whole law of the land or whole law of the ten? What indication in the context is there ti show that James means circumcision or passover, or morning and even sacrifices?

See Pythons post preceeding this quoted post.

 

[from scratch]

I've wondered the same thing. Since scripture is silent though on what happened to the ark one can only theorize. It could have been captured when Jerusalem was destoryed, or taken into hidding and lost to civilization.

And Moses did get a detailed description, God was very thourough and told him exactly what to do and how to make everything that was a part of the temple. That's why there is great significance tied up in the tabrenacle that Moses built. Since it was a copy of the one in heaven, that means that everything on earth was revealing a hevenly trut. So if the ark contained the law on earth, that must mean that the ark in heaven contains the law as well.

Did Moses get a description or see it? If it was a copy as in replica Moses would have to have seen it. I think Moses was an increditable artist.

 

[from scratch]

ELDER 111
You proved for yourself that we are not to attempt to keep the Law nor are we able to keep the Law. "What then? shall we sin, {because we are not under the law,} but under grace? God forbid. Rom" 6:15

We cannot help but sin but not being under the Law is not an excuse to willfully sin.

When the human seed of Jesus was in Solomon he wrapped himself in the Hebrew Alphabete identifying himself as the WORD OF GOD. On the night of his arrest he was in the mount in prayer to God asking if there was any way God could take the cup of death from him. The human body is weak and that is the reason why Jesus was called upon as our sacrifice because he was without sin.Jesus also repeated his plea to God to remove the cup of suffering if it were possible, thus ending his prayer with not my will but thine will be done.

This is how Jesus records his struggle that night with his human body. Psa. 119:176 "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments."

Nice post and welcome to GT.