Thanksgiving for the separation of Church and State

[David Evarts]

It is obvious you are new to Christian Forums because I have used the following statement from my earliest posts.

Republicans have yet to prove to me that they totally support Christian principles, but democrats have proven they do "not" support Christian Principles.

The repeal of "don't ask - don't tell" by the congress controlled by Democrats is proof that the Democratic party does not support Christian Principles.

No Christian should ever vote for any democrat for any office because the democratic party supports Socialism and Atheism.

Proof of the Socialism of the Democratic party was the congress controlled by democrats passing the ObamaCare legislation.

I see much good and bad in both parties, but it should be noted that the Democrats (and for that matter socialists) are closer to a primary biblical commandment. The calls in the Bible, both old and new testament, from Jesus and others for followers of "the way" to care for the needy and cry out to the government for justice for them are repeated over 300 times. The Bible makes it clear that governments will be judged on their care for the needy or conversly their favoristism towards the wealthy. Thus, the democratic party is closer to a biblical position than the republican party. If this is what you mean by socialism, than Christians might want to consider voting for the democratic party because of this. Obamacare, though by no means perfect is certainly more biblical than anti-health care Republican initiatives. Are you sure that your gospel isn't drawn more from Ayn Rand than the Bible?

 

[Gishin]

Clirus would have you hanged for saying that.

 

[David Evarts]

My wife tells me that sooner or later she expects a zealot to respond to something I've said by making a martyr of me. But, I just can't resist, even though it's hardly sporting to skewer their ideas so easily.

 

[CTD]

Questions:
1. Who's advocating any national religion for the U.S.?

2. What religion are they trying to establish?

3. Who will appoint the leaders of the official church?

4. What was the official religion of the U.S. 100 years ago?

Anyone care to answer?

4 Questions
0 Answers

Is even one of them so difficult?

 

[CTD]

Christianity is the national religion of America because America was founded as a Christian Nation. Many times this question has come before congress and every time it has been reaffirmed that America is a Christian Nation.

America has "In God We Trust" on our money, "Under God" in our pledge of allegiance, "So help me God" before testimony in a court, most oaths of office end with "So help me God" and in the fourth stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner it states "In God is our trust.". Even the Constitution had the following statement.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.

No one is required to be a Christian, and the state has not established Christianity as an official religion, but America was founded as a Christian Nation.

Through the Democratic party, Atheists are doing everything they can to turn America into an Atheistic Nation and most Christians are doing nothing.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men (Christians) to do nothing.

Christians must get back into politics and get control of the government. If Christians do not get control of the government, I see a Sodom and Gomorrah situation being established.

No Christians should vote for any Democrat for any office, because the Democratic party supports Socialism and Atheism.

Thanks for responding, but I should have preferred answers to the questions. Your post contains some facts , and addresses some serious issues, however it might just as well have been posted independently since you don't get around to the questions in my post.

I think if people are going to profit, we need to present things simply and directly, in a manner which nobody can misunderstand. You've gone directly to conclusions in several cases, and I would prefer to take things step-by-step. America's enemies have nothing to say which can withstand patient examination. Let them answer if they dare, or play stupid if they prefer a more traditional route.

 

[David Evarts]

Originally Posted by CTD

Questions:
1. Who's advocating any national religion for the U.S.?

2. What religion are they trying to establish?

3. Who will appoint the leaders of the official church?

4. What was the official religion of the U.S. 100 years ago?

Anyone care to answer?
​

4 Questions
0 Answers

Is even one of them so difficult?

Here's your four answers.

1.) Many Christians generally of the Evangelical branch and of the Republican party advocate for a theocracy. (See any of the posts of Clirus or the Wall Builders web site.) They generally claim that Christianity is already the national religion and should be accorded more priviledges, while tolerance for other beleifs should be limited. Ironically the same groups and people often claim to be persecuted for their beleifs.

2.) They are usually trying to establish a non-denominational branch of protestant evangelical Christianity or pentecostal protestant evangelical Christianity as the favored church, but are often big enough to grant room to other families of Christianity and sometimes Jews. They are also generally clear that other religions, agnostics and anyone who prefers a secular society with freedom of religion should not be so blessed. I'm quite sure you can observe these folks by watching Fox news, listening to talk radio, visiting the Wall Builders web site or dropping by many churches.

3.) Frightening question, huh? God forbid that said church should be led by a televangelist, Fox news commentator or such, but they are often the ones most likely to rail against freedom of religion and the wall of separation.

4.) 100 years ago, as today, there was no official religion in America, but plenty of folks who were not happy with that separation of church and state wished to make American protestant evangelical Christianity (or their limited version thereof) the official religion and declared that America was already and always had been a "Christian nation." In those days many of the "patriots" who wished to destroy our constitutional protection from them, wished to do so in order to protect racism and segregation as their God given right and to make Klu Klux Klan persecution of Blacks, Catholics, Jews and Christians who disagreed with them the law of the land.

Fortunately the wall of seperation is still the law of the land. May it continue to protect us all. -David

 

[CTD]

Originally Posted by CTD

Questions:
1. Who's advocating any national religion for the U.S.?

2. What religion are they trying to establish?

3. Who will appoint the leaders of the official church?

4. What was the official religion of the U.S. 100 years ago?

Anyone care to answer?
​

Here's your four answers.

1.) Many Christians generally of the Evangelical branch and of the Republican party advocate for a theocracy. (See any of the posts of Clirus or the Wall Builders web site.) They generally claim that Christianity is already the national religion and should be accorded more priviledges, while tolerance for other beleifs should be limited. Ironically the same groups and people often claim to be persecuted for their beleifs.

Factually incorrect. Really now, anyone can just make stuff up - it's not impressive. There are not many Christians at all trying to establish a theocracy - I defy anyone to go find so many as five by tomorrow.

2.) They are usually trying to establish a non-denominational branch of protestant evangelical Christianity or pentecostal protestant evangelical Christianity as the favored church, but are often big enough to grant room to other families of Christianity and sometimes Jews. They are also generally clear that other religions, agnostics and anyone who prefers a secular society with freedom of religion should not be so blessed. I'm quite sure you can observe these folks by watching Fox news, listening to talk radio, visiting the Wall Builders web site or dropping by many churches.

This or that ... you imagine. So what? If they were for real, there'd be no this or that. If they really existed, they'd have proposals and plans drawn up. Nobody'd have to try imagining.

3.) Frightening question, huh? God forbid that said church should be led by a televangelist, Fox news commentator or such, but they are often the ones most likely to rail against freedom of religion and the wall of separation.

Again, if such a group existed, the question would be easily answered. We should have no need of vague blah-de-blah nonsense.

The question is very simple, and direct. It rates a simple and direct answer.

"3. Who will appoint the leaders of the official church?"

There now. If such people exist in numbers, and are organized and planning all this, why can you not answer the question?

4.) 100 years ago, as today, there was no official religion in America, but...

Not interested in more yakkity-yak. 100 years ago, the Bible was universally employed as a textbook, and there was nobody indoctrinating students with evolutionism. Nobody was passing out condoms or instructing teens to be immoral. America was a God-fearing country, and by your own admission there was no official religion.

If anyone suggests we return so much as one step in the direction of right, scoffers howl that to do so would violate the "separation of church and state". They lie. Church and state have been separate all along.

No hostility toward faith was ever intended. Atheistic indoctrination is not constitutionally required. It never has been, and it cannot be compatible with freedom.

I invite all patriots to reflect on this profound question:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson

 

[CTD]

Mind the word games, folks. England has an official church, and even they don't have a theocracy.

Slow down, pay attention, and think. There's no need to be fooled.

 

[tulc]

Factually incorrect. Really now, anyone can just make stuff up - it's not impressive. There are not many Christians at all trying to establish a theocracy - I defy anyone to go find so many as five by tomorrow.

Start with these:

Liberty Under God -- The Christmas Conspiracy!

Bryan Fischer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WallBuilders | Presenting America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on our moral, religious, and constitutional heritage.

America's Heritage: Are we a Christian Nation? — The Forerunner

http://www.americanpatriotparty.cc/

Patriot Action Network - "ONE MAN WITH COURAGE IS A MAJORITY" Thomas Jefferson

Christian Identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constitution Party National Political Headquarters

tulc(can find more if you like)

 

[tulc]

Mind the word games, folks. England has an official church, and even they don't have a theocracy.

Slow down, pay attention, and think. There's no need to be fooled.

...so? What's your point?
tulc(is honestly perplexed)

 

[CTD]

Start with these:

tulc(can find more if you like)

Let me know when you fine your first one.

When you do find the first one, you'll be able to do more than just point a finger and say "he wants x". See, that's just you talking. Had you found one, you'd be able to answer all the questions: What religion are they trying to establish, and who'll be running things, and such.

That's kinda what it means to establish a religion, you know. There should actually be some religion being established. If you're going to set up a theocracy, it will entail actually setting up some sort of theocracy - not merely being accused of imagining you'd like something kinda sorta somewhat not atheist-approved.

Still plenty of time on the clock, and you have the whole internet out there. Surely a conspiracy of so "many Christians" will be no problem to discover.

 

[tulc]

Let me know when you fine your first one.

When you do find the first one, you'll be able to do more than just point a finger and say "he wants x". See, that's just you talking. Had you found one, you'd be able to answer all the questions: What religion are they trying to establish, and who'll be running things, and such.

That's kinda what it means to establish a religion, you know. There should actually be some religion being established. If you're going to set up a theocracy, it will entail actually setting up some sort of theocracy - not merely being accused of imagining you'd like something kinda sorta somewhat not atheist-approved.

Still plenty of time on the clock, and you have the whole internet out there. Surely a conspiracy of so "many Christians" will be no problem to discover.

Why? I already did.
tulc(doesn't like repeating himself unless he has to)

 

[CTD]

tic toc

tic toc

tic toc, tulc

 

[tulc]

tic toc

tic toc

tic toc, tulc

You're cute when you try and be all ominous,
tulc(must find some coffee)

 

[CTD]

Start with these:

tulc(can find more if you like)

*Bzzzzzz!* Time's up.

Out of the links provided, only the first even mentions theocracy. The author employs a somewhat different definition of the term.

Oh yes it was. The literal meaning of "theocracy" is "God Rules," and a nation where God Rules is a nation "under God." Each of the 13 colonies were Christian Theocracies.

Several other terms there have nuanced & particular definitions.

No stereotypes would seem to apply

It is important not to confuse anti-clericalism with secularism. The author of this web page, a fanatic Christian Theocrat, has not been a church-member for 15 years.

Whatever the conclusion you'd have us draw, I don't think many are going to invest the time to find out exactly what the author's talking about.

This is not a website you can understand during a commercial break on "Desperate Housewives" or "Hannity and Colmes." We are in the process of setting up an autoresponder email course which will take you through the entire argument of this website in a year, in a 5-minute daily summary of the over 300 links below.

Evidently you, tulc, didn't even begin to read anything there, so why should any of us waste more time?

-------------------------------

What's interesting is how anyone who loves America and supports the constitution as written is slandered these days. I've bookmarked a couple of those links, and I think there's some good content to be had. Your list of "people tulc doesn't like" says more about tulc than it does about anyone else.

Yes, on paper America has religious freedom. It's funny how people think a constitution just magically protects a man's liberty. Check it out:

Article 34. Citizens of the USSR are equal before the law, without distinction of origin, social or property status, race or nationality, sex, education, language, attitude to religion, type and nature of occupation, domicile, or other status.

The equal rights of citizens of the USSR are guaranteed in all fields of economic, political, social, and cultural life.

Article 52. Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda. Incitement of hostility or hatred on religious grounds is prohibited.

In the USSR, the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church.

Constitutions don't enforce themselves. There is no magic. Nobody ever claimed there could be - quite the opposite.

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. " - John Adams, 1798

 

[Ringo84]

and a nation where God Rules is a nation "under God." Each of the 13 colonies were Christian Theocracies.

Really? God personally ruled the original thirteen colonies? That's an aspect of American history I'd never heard.

In the USSR, the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church.

Is this the tired "Separation is bad because the Soviets separated church from state" argument? I sincerely hope not.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. " - John Adams, 1798

I've seen people use this quote before. What does that even mean - that the Constitution only apples to people who are moral and/or religious? That's ridiculous!
Ringo

 

[tulc]

*Bzzzzzz!* Time's up.

Out of the links provided, only the first even mentions theocracy. The author employs a somewhat different definition of the term.


Several other terms there have nuanced & particular definitions.

No stereotypes would seem to apply
Whatever the conclusion you'd have us draw, I don't think many are going to invest the time to find out exactly what the author's talking about.
Evidently you, tulc, didn't even begin to read anything there, so why should any of us waste more time?

-------------------------------

What's interesting is how anyone who loves America and supports the constitution as written is slandered these days. I've bookmarked a couple of those links, and I think there's some good content to be had. Your list of "people tulc doesn't like" says more about tulc than it does about anyone else.

Yes, on paper America has religious freedom. It's funny how people think a constitution just magically protects a man's liberty. Check it out:

Constitutions don't enforce themselves. There is no magic. Nobody ever claimed there could be - quite the opposite.

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. " - John Adams, 1798 (emph. added)

About the bolded portion? Glad to help! As for the:

Your list of "people tulc doesn't like" says more about tulc than it does about anyone else.

never said I didn't like them, I don't agree with them but I have many friends who believe in things I don't agree with.
tulc(really isn't that hard to understand, he's pretty much the same in 3d as he is online...)

 

[CTD]

Really? God personally ruled the original thirteen colonies? That's an aspect of American history I'd never heard.

Okay, apparently someone needs to explain the format of posts here. That which a person posts, is just pretty much normal text. Things they quote are indented, italicized, and have a blue bar next to them. I hope that helps. If it doesn't, please find someone to assist you.

 

[CTD]

never said I didn't like them, I don't agree with them but I have many friends who believe in things I don't agree with.
tulc(really isn't that hard to understand, he's pretty much the same in 3d as he is online...)

You don't have to say "I don't like them". When you lie about their views, it informs all witnesses.

 

[tulc]

You don't have to say "I don't like them". When you lie about their views, it informs all witnesses.

As you will!
tulc(is finishing the last cup of coffee for the day)