Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[11822]

I understand that you was responding to scratch. But it looks a bit strange, so thats why I ask you what you exactly mean.

Well.. I think I understand you... If I am right you are saying: (and correct me if I am wrong pls) When there is no marriage in the world: we are all surrender to fornication.

Do I understand you here correct?

My point was, whether we are married or not we're commanded to abstain from fornication. Fornication being intercourse outside marriage.

 

[11822]

1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

 

[Dutch42]

here, here!

in the u.s. some want to sanction "same sex" marriage!

Well here in Holland it is legal, but not only this.. making legal of abortion too.

The laws.. against the will of God, made by man.. not by God.

 

[Dutch42]

My point was, whether we are married or not we're commanded to abstain from fornication. Fornication being intercourse outside marriage.

I understand what you mean.. and in basic I agree fully with you.. Only I think fornication is more than only adultery.

porneia por-ni’-ah

from 4203; TDNT-6:579,918; n f

AV-fornication 26; 26

1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; #Le 18:6-23
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; #Mr 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

But thanks

 

[11822]

I understand what you mean.. and in basic I agree fully with you.. Only I think fornication is more than only adultery.

porneia por-ni’-ah

from 4203; TDNT-6:579,918; n f

AV-fornication 26; 26

1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; #Le 18:6-23
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; #Mr 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

But thanks

Yes but then we get into other works of the flesh and get off subject. Abstaining from fornication is backed by the word commandment in scripture, thats why i use it for an example. But i would agree it includes those things.

 

[BloodyRachel]

I understand what you mean.. and in basic I agree fully with you.. Only I think fornication is more than only adultery.

porneia por-ni’-ah

from 4203; TDNT-6:579,918; n f

AV-fornication 26; 26

1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; #Le 18:6-23
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; #Mr 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

But thanks

Amen. Fornication is complicated. It's a capital crime in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, it's a crime that gets you sent to hell.

 

[from scratch]

My point was, whether we are married or not we're commanded to abstain from fornication. Fornication being intercourse outside marriage.

Not necessarily. Some verses list both and next to each other. So there must be a difference.

 

[from scratch]

If hes referring to the power given to him by the state and not God then he says that because its required of the law. Gods law always supersedes any man made law. One day Christians may give their lives to prove that.

Your first sentence is my point exactly.

 

[ghendricks63]

My point was, whether we are married or not we're commanded to abstain from fornication. Fornication being intercourse outside marriage.

Many Christians do love to throw this definition for fornication around and claim it as an absolute truth. Scripture, however, does not support it as being sex out of marriage.

 

[from scratch]

you said it. i'm just trying to get a clearer understanding of what you are saying.

you can answer but you won't, because you think i'm looking for the "gotcha".

Nope, And I stated why. I think I gave a reasonable and wise answer to your question.

 

[from scratch]

No im pushing the Gospel whether you want to call it by the truth or not. You're labeling me according to your own biased opinion. Paul shows much tolerance in Romans 14 for those who observe days and eat food according to the law. He shows some tolerance to people observing unnecessary laws for the sake of brotherly love, he only condemns them when they say it is the way to salvation, or teaching circumcision for obvious reasons. If paul can show tolerance to food laws, why not show me some for talking about obeying good laws such as abstaining from fornication? Hes not keen on people preaching Righteousness through works or circumcisioon and for good reason. But you seem to take it further than He does, you seem to exclude laws Paul teaches.

Each to his own. Let them be fully persuaded in their own mind. If you wish to follow a list of rules more power to ya. I deeply resent anyone trying to push something I've not reasonable or legal obligation to adhear to. That is conversion. I have no objection to personal testimony and this has gone way beyond that to a conversion attempt. I validate no one. We both think each is unreasonable. I don't think you can jsutify your position considering the whole Bible. Part of which is clearly rejected. Sorry, but not an apology.

 

[from scratch]

so i guess they were the only people that got married before the time of moses!

Great side step. congratulations!

 

[from scratch]

The law of man never supersedes that of God. Adultery is handled by Gods law first and mans law second.

Then please tell me why the religous community submits to civil government and not God in religious issues such as the marriage ceremony and rite.

 

[from scratch]

you still have to deal with matt 5:19

Matthew 5:19(NKJV)
19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

in other words, how can Jesus tell someone to teach the commandments, if He, Himself, is not teaching them?

remember? it was you who said He didn't teach the commandments.

that's why i said, "who do we believe? you or the Christ? wasn't trying to be funny.

stand by your speech, now.

Have I not dealt with the do(er) issue? Is it a part time doer or a full time doer? If one isn't a full time doer they aren't a doer of anything. If one has violated the law they don't qualify as a doer. They qualify as a violator and maybe a forgiven violator but that is still a violator and doesn't allow them to qualify as a doer.

Your emphasis is teaching the law and mine is doing the law to validate the truth of what Jesus said. Paul says they blaspheme God's name in being hypocrites - Rom 2. Jesus even said something that pertains to the subject and if I quote it I will only be further accused of judging to the point of being reported. It would be extremely condemning.

 

[from scratch]

And we're still bound to obey the law of fornication when not married..

Now I can agree that an unmarried person can commit the sin of fornication, however the Holy Spirit doesn't lead me there.

 

[from scratch]

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

I highlighted the solution. Problem solved - permanently!

 

[from scratch]

Re 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.


Re 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not

Re 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts

If we're a stumbling block, the solution is very simple - absent yourself from our fellowship. So if your here to point out we offend you, your trespassing our liberty in Christ Jesus - Gal 5.

If you would like our fellowship quit gripping and start learning.

 

[sheina]

Then please tell me why the religous community submits to civil government and not God in religious issues such as the marriage ceremony and rite.

Is this what you are looking for?

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

When there is no government, there is anarchy because of the sin and selfishness of fallen man. The role of government is to maintain peace and order in this wicked world, to punish evil and to reward righteousness.

 

[BloodyRachel]

Great side step. congratulations!

Please remember to show charity.

 

[from scratch]

i knew that gen 2 wouldn't work for you, even though it says it is recounting the history of the creation. i don't know what will satisfy you. it seems the scripture isn't enough.

What do you mean? Do you mean that the laws given at Sinai were in affect on day 6 of creation? How? They came 430 years after Abraham - Gal 3:17.

this is the crux:

Now if the law existed it couldn't be added.

i agree with this statement you have written here.

that's what i believe, the law (the ten, because they define sin) existed, before sinai.

the question is, what was added?

Galatians 3:19(NKJV)
19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

this cannot be the ten commandments, because even you know that God wrote them Himself. however, this law that was added was appointed through angels.

What does James call the law - 2:10-11? What does Paul say is the law - Rom 7:6-7? What are the scribes and pahrisees calling the law? What answer do you think they were expecting?

you use the verse, but never comment on the fact of how, the law that was added, was delilvered.

How would I do that? Isn't that verse self explanatory? Paul clearly shows the law to be the 10 Cs in Rom 7 as sated above.

couple that with the fact that it was added because of transgressions.

transgressing what? i'll save you the trouble, you can't say.

You wish me to say the 10 Cs. But how can that be? Is Paul lying? Wouldn't that prove he is a false teacher? Wouldn't that prove that the Bible isn't inspried by God? So what gives? It doesn't seem to be your position but the Bible's clear statement.

and whatever law was added was only temporary, till the seed should come.

The law is a has been according to LK 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Notice it says the law and not law.

i'm not vacillating, my position has not changed since i've come into contact with you. it seems that you are the one vacillating.

Please so demonstrate my vacillating. I can take my medicne.