Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[JohnRabbit]

I ask you to show there was on day 6 of creation such a thing.

just open your bible and read Genesis chapter 2, you know?

that's the chapter that recounts the history of the creation.

there's chapter 1 and by chapter 2 eve is called adam's wife.

i hope that works for you.

and, you can keep going around saying there was no law before the time of moses, if you want.

 

[from scratch]

You said: "As a law pusher would argue marriage is before the law and thus outside of the law. Marriage was created and sanctioned in the garden. Now divorece is part of the law".

I'm not known as a law pusher and I don't push or preach the law either.

And don't we still observe the law of adultery and divorce? Which means there is law that we follow?

Please note I highlighted As a law pusher. Incidence isn't obedience. And BTW marriage and divorce are now regulated by the govenrment and not the church. Therefore it isn't even the Bible that Christians in general follow in this matter. The power and authority is now generally given by the state through law and license and can be terminated legally only through the law of the civil government as well. So who do you submit to. I'm still a single man having never married. That puts me out of your rhelm on the matter.

 

[11822]

You said: "As a law pusher would argue marriage is before the law and thus outside of the law. Marriage was created and sanctioned in the garden. Now divorece is part of the law".

I'm not known as a law pusher and I don't push or preach the law either.Incidence isn't obedience. And BTW marriage and divorece are now regulated by the govenrment and not the church. Therefore it isn't even the Bible that Christians in general follow in this matter. The power and authority is now generally given by the state through law and license and can be terminated legally only through the law of the civil government as well. So who do you submit to. I'm still a single man having never married. That putsme out of your rhelm on the matter.

The law of man never supersedes that of God. Adultery is handled by Gods law first and mans law second.

 

[JohnRabbit]

[/COLOR]Really? Where? What? Where? Jesus told a young rich man that ask an ignorant question for a Jew, What good thing can I do? Where does Jesus even imply that one could keep the commandments? Jesus (God) certainly would know the law. Jesus gave him the correct answer. The problem is that no mere man has ever been able to comply. And the Scripture says so as I have already stated. Ps 14:3, 53:3 and Isa 64:6. There are numerous NT verses implying and state the same. But the young rich man didn't have that benefit and therefore I didn't uses them.

Jesus said - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus also says this about Himself - 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.


who are we to believe? you or the Christ?

Please bekieve Jesus.[/QUOTE]

you still have to deal with matt 5:19

Matthew 5:19(NKJV)
19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

in other words, how can Jesus tell someone to teach the commandments, if He, Himself, is not teaching them?

remember? it was you who said He didn't teach the commandments.

that's why i said, "who do we believe? you or the Christ? wasn't trying to be funny.

stand by your speech, now.

 

[11822]

And we're still bound to obey the law of fornication when not married..

 

[sheina]

And we're still bound to obey the law of fornication when not married..

The "law of fornication"? Where is that "law" found in Scripture?

FORNICATION

The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman; adultery; incest; a forsaking of the true God and worshiping of idols (Webster).

The Bible uses this term as a general description for immorality (Matthew 5:32; 15:19; 19:9; Acts 15:20,29; 21:15; Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:18; 7:2; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1Thessalonians 4:3; Revelation 9:21). Like adultery, fornication is also used in a spiritual sense to describe turning from God to serve false gods (Ezekiel 16:29-34; Revelation 2:21; 14:8; 17:2,4; 18:3; 19:2). The Greek word translated fornication is porneia, from which the English word "pornographic" is derived.

It is a given that a born again Christian (married or unmarried) will not commit any acts of immorality when he/she is walking in the Spirit. Why would somebody, who has trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, do such things? That is just plumb silly! The Christian's rule of life is not the law....but Christ Himself. (Romans 13:14)

 

[from scratch]

just open your bible and read Genesis chapter 2, you know?

How does Gen 2 affect the order of creation? Are you saying that creation wasn't finished on day 7 which included Eve?

that's the chapter that recounts the history of the creation.

there's chapter 1 and by chapter 2 eve is called adam's wife.

i hope that works for you.

and, you can keep going around saying there was no law before the time of moses, if you want.

What does the Scripture say? The subject is the law not laws of God. Semantics you say. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. What Jeremiah said God promised wasn't like the law in existence. So blame Jeremiah for my view not me.

I said it before ans will say it again my discussion is about the law as is commonly used in the NT. Both James and Paul mean all the whole law anytime they say the law. It is exactly what the scribes and pharisees meant as well. Just check any of their discussions. You can vacillate all you want. Now if the law existed it couldn't be added. The real base of the argument and dispute on the law is the 10 Cs and really even more specifically the sabbath. And it is this argument I used about the sabbath being before the law. It is clearly not my position and you know it very well.

 

[11822]

The "law of fornication"? Where is that "law" found in Scripture?

FORNICATION

The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman; adultery; incest; a forsaking of the true God and worshiping of idols (Webster).

The Bible uses this term as a general description for immorality (Matthew 5:32; 15:19; 19:9; Acts 15:20,29; 21:15; Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:18; 7:2; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1Thessalonians 4:3; Revelation 9:21). Like adultery, fornication is also used in a spiritual sense to describe turning from God to serve false gods (Ezekiel 16:29-34; Revelation 2:21; 14:8; 17:2,4; 18:3; 19:2). The Greek word translated fornication is porneia, from which the English word "pornographic" is derived.

It is a given that a born again Christian (married or unmarried) will not commit any acts of immorality when he/she is walking in the Spirit. Why would somebody, who has trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, do such things? That is just plumb silly! The Christian's rule of life is not the law....but Christ Himself. (Romans 13:14)

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.


Ro 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

 

[11822]

Re 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.


Re 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not

Re 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts

 

[from scratch]

You said: "As a law pusher would argue marriage is before the law and thus outside of the law. Marriage was created and sanctioned in the garden. Now divorece is part of the law".



The law of man never supersedes that of God. Adultery is handled by Gods law first and mans law second.

Your church submits to the state for the authority to perform a marriage ceremony. What does the minister say? By the authority vested in me I pronoounce you... He signs a marriage license granted by the state which is filed at the county court house - a state institution. Last I knew God issues no such thing to be signed. Marriage is a civil legal partnership between two people with no structure unless they have a prenuptiual agreement or contract. I hear that some states no license co-habitation with conjugal rights and no marriage. I was shocked to hear this from what I took to be a sincere and mature in the faith Christian.Last I knew is that God issues no such thing to be signed.

 

[11822]

Your church submits to the state for the authority to perform a marriage ceremony. What does the minister say? By the authority vested in me I pronoounce you... He signs a marriage license granted by the state which is filed at the county court house - a state institution. Last I knew God issues no such thing to be signed. Marriage is a civil legal partnership between two people with no structure unless they have a prenuptiual agreement or contract. I hear that some states no license co-habitation with conjugal rights and no marriage. I was shocked to hear this from what I took to be a sincere and mature in the faith Christian.Last I knew is that God issues no such thing to be signed.

If hes referring to the power given to him by the state and not God then he says that because its required of the law. Gods law always supersedes any man made law. One day Christians may give their lives to prove that.

 

[JohnRabbit]

H[/COLOR]ow does Gen 2 affect the order of creation? Are you saying that creation wasn't finished on day 7 which included Eve?

that's the chapter that recounts the history of the creation.

there's chapter 1 and by chapter 2 eve is called adam's wife.

i hope that works for you.

and, you can keep going around saying there was no law before the time of moses, if you want.

What does the Scripture say? The subject is the law not laws of God. Semantics you say. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. What Jeremiah said God promised wasn't like the law in existence. So blame Jeremiah for my view not me.

I said it before ans will say it again my discussion is about the law as is commonly used in the NT. Both James and Paul mean all the whole law anytime they say the law. It is exactly what the scribes and pharisees meant as well. Just check any of their discussions. You can vacillate all you want. Now if the law existed it couldn't be added. The real base of the argument and dispute on the law is the 10 Cs and really even more specifically the sabbath. And it is this argument I used about the sabbath being before the law. It is clearly not my position and you know it very well.[/QUOTE]

i knew that gen 2 wouldn't work for you, even though it says it is recounting the history of the creation. i don't know what will satisfy you. it seems the scripture isn't enough.

this is the crux:

Now if the law existed it couldn't be added.

i agree with this statement you have written here.

that's what i believe, the law (the ten, because they define sin) existed, before sinai.

the question is, what was added?

Galatians 3:19(NKJV)
19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

this cannot be the ten commandments, because even you know that God wrote them Himself. however, this law that was added was appointed through angels.

you use the verse, but never comment on the fact of how, the law that was added, was delilvered.

couple that with the fact that it was added because of transgressions.

transgressing what? i'll save you the trouble, you can't say.

and whatever law was added was only temporary, till the seed should come.

i'm not vacillating, my position has not changed since i've come into contact with you. it seems that you are the one vacillating.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I'm not known as a law pusher and I don't push or preach the law either.Please note I highlighted As a law pusher. Incidence isn't obedience. And BTW marriage and divorce are now regulated by the govenrment and not the church. Therefore it isn't even the Bible that Christians in general follow in this matter. The power and authority is now generally given by the state through law and license and can be terminated legally only through the law of the civil government as well. So who do you submit to. I'm still a single man having never married. That puts me out of your rhelm on the matter.

i can't even believe you went there!

you must be getting desperate to defend your position!

maybe this will help:

Matthew 19:4-6(NKJV)
4And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

since God created the institution of marriage, how can we say that it's regulated by the man's government?

who changed things?

 

[Dutch42]

1. And we're still bound to obey the law of fornication when not married..

2. Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: etc etc

I understand the word fornication.
Let me say how I understand you, because I am not sure what you mean with: And we're still bound to obey the law of fornication when not married..

Like I understand you is: when you aren't married you are still bound at the law of fornication..(Or like the Philipstranslation said: Sexual immorality)

can you explain this?

 

[11822]

I understand the word fornication.
Let me say how I understand you, because I am not sure what you mean with: And we're still bound to obey the law of fornication when not married..

Like I understand you is: when you aren't married you are still bound at the law of fornication..(Or like the Philipstranslation said: Sexual immorality)

can you explain this?

I was responding to scratch. I showed the basis for law without marriage.

 

[11822]

And i was showing where the law of fornication was located in the bible because i was asked to.

 

[Dutch42]

Your church submits to the state for the authority to perform a marriage ceremony. What does the minister say? By the authority vested in me I pronoounce you... He signs a marriage license granted by the state which is filed at the county court house - a state institution. Last I knew God issues no such thing to be signed. Marriage is a civil legal partnership between two people with no structure unless they have a prenuptiual agreement or contract. I hear that some states no license co-habitation with conjugal rights and no marriage. I was shocked to hear this from what I took to be a sincere and mature in the faith Christian.Last I knew is that God issues no such thing to be signed.

i can't even believe you went there!

you must be getting desperate to defend your position!

maybe this will help:

Matthew 19:4-6(NKJV)
4And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

since God created the institution of marriage, how can we say that it's regulated by the man's government?

who changed things?

The first question is: who gave a person the authority to marry?

Second question is: Who gave a person the authority to divorce?

Third question is: What said the Bible about divorce.. and what does the state saying about divorce.

The point that I wanted to make is... And I think in the US it is the same as Holland. There is a separation between church and state.

What mean here in Holland: The Bible isn't leading when we make the law. It is possible here to make laws against the will of God.

 

[11822]

The first question is: who gave a person the authority to marry?

Second question is: Who gave a person the authority to divorce?

Third question is: What said the Bible about divorce.. and what does the state saying about divorce.

The point that I wanted to make is... And I think in the US it is the same as Holland. There is a separation between church and state.

What mean here in Holland: The Bible isn't leading when we make the law. It is possible here to make laws against the will of God.

Thats right. Gods law is the supreme court.

 

[JohnRabbit]

The first question is: who gave a person the authority to marry?

Second question is: Who gave a person the authority to divorce?

Third question is: What said the Bible about divorce.. and what does the state saying about divorce.

The point that I wanted to make is... And I think in the US it is the same as Holland. There is a separation between church and state.

What mean here in Holland: The Bible isn't leading when we make the law. It is possible here to make laws against the will of God.

here, here!

in the u.s. some want to sanction "same sex" marriage!

 

[Dutch42]

I was responding to scratch. I showed the basis for law without marriage.

And i was showing where the law of fornication was located in the bible because i was asked to.

I understand that you was responding to scratch. But it looks a bit strange, so thats why I ask you what you exactly mean.

Well.. I think I understand you... If I am right you are saying: (and correct me if I am wrong pls) When there is no marriage in the world: we are all surrender to fornication.

Do I understand you here correct?