Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[from scratch]

i can't even believe you went there!

you must be getting desperate to defend your position!

Nope not at all. And you don't provide any discussion on the statement. Why? What is offered is ad hominem.

maybe this will help:

Matthew 19:4-6(NKJV)
4And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

since God created the institution of marriage, how can we say that it's regulated by the man's government?

Surely there must not be anything such as reality.

who changed things?

Is it who changed things or who one submits to? Do or did you not submit to the government in the matter of course assuming you're married?

 

[BloodyRachel]

Is this what you are looking for?

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

When there is no government, there is anarchy because of the sin and selfishness of fallen man. The role of government is to maintain peace and order in this wicked world, to punish evil and to reward righteousness.

Amen.

 

[from scratch]

I was responding to scratch. I showed the basis for law without marriage.

Nope you're trying to get me to say that I follow the law. Fat and Last Chance left town a long timae ago ad said they weren't ever coming back. I

 

[from scratch]

The first question is: who gave a person the authority to marry?

Second question is: Who gave a person the authority to divorce?

Third question is: What said the Bible about divorce.. and what does the state saying about divorce.

The point that I wanted to make is... And I think in the US it is the same as Holland. There is a separation between church and state.

What mean here in Holland: The Bible isn't leading when we make the law. It is possible here to make laws against the will of God.

I think the issue before us is following the law and a law and what law is followed. There is an issue what a legal marriage is. Here in the states the right is regulated by the state and not God. The church has submitted to the state and not God on the matter. If indeed the insitution of marriage is still regulated by God why submit to the state for permission to marry or divorce? Let the unregenerate do so as they give no credence to God.

 

[from scratch]

My point was, whether we are married or not we're commanded to abstain from fornication. Fornication being intercourse outside marriage.

The idea you present is submitting to a rule list (called law or the law) opposed to following the leading of the Holy Spirit which doesn't lead us to follow a rule list. A Christian doesn't submit to the lusts of the flesh or the law - Gal 5:19-21.

 

[from scratch]

Yes but then we get into other works of the flesh and get off subject. Abstaining from fornication is backed by the word commandment in scripture, thats why i use it for an example. But i would agree it includes those things.

It is being used to point one to the law. Fornication is a distracting side issue.

 

[from scratch]

Is this what you are looking for?

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

When there is no government, there is anarchy because of the sin and selfishness of fallen man. The role of government is to maintain peace and order in this wicked world, to punish evil and to reward righteousness.

I certianly agree with you on submission to the government as the scripture states. This opens up to more issues like abortion. It is legal and protected by the state and I see christians saying it isn't sin. I shake my head in disbelief. Now is it the Christian that causes disorder in marriage? Please understand what I'm saying here. Christians have by in large submitted to the wicked in the area of government and we have a wicked government. A wicked government was never meant to be by God. I really don't wish to get into the subject. But this is certianly an issue.

 

[sheina]

I certianly agree with you on submission to the government as the scripture states. This opens up to more issues like abortion. It is legal and protected by the state and I see christians saying it isn't sin. I shake my head in disbelief. Now is it the Christian that causes disorder in marriage? Please understand what I'm saying here. Christians have by in large submitted to the wicked in the area of government and we have a wicked government. A wicked government was never meant to be by God. I really don't wish to get into the subject. But this is certianly an issue.

I agree...God wants His people to obey civil government, but there is a limit: when the government requires disobedience to God, (Acts 4:19-20; 5:29; Daniel 6:10) God does not require obedience to man's laws if in so obeying the Christian is forced to disobey the Scriptures.

A wicked government is definitely NOT ordained by God.

 

[11822]

Amen. Fornication is complicated. It's a capital crime in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, it's a crime that gets you sent to hell.

Its not complicated at all. Its a sin Jesus and his apostles teaches about and its that simple.

 

[11822]

Not necessarily. Some verses list both and next to each other. So there must be a difference.

It doesn't matter because adultery and fornication are both laws found in the N.T. and the individual definitions to both are clear.

 

[11822]

Your first sentence is my point exactly.

And my point is that no man made law can replace that of God. If the legislature passes a law that says praying in the name of the Lord is a crime, then Gods law being the supreme court throws that godless law out.

 

[11822]

I highlighted the solution. Problem solved - permanently!

Please expound.

 

[11822]

Many Christians do love to throw this definition for fornication around and claim it as an absolute truth. Scripture, however, does not support it as being sex out of marriage.

What is sex outside of marriage called?

 

[11822]

Each to his own. Let them be fully persuaded in their own mind. If you wish to follow a list of rules more power to ya. I deeply resent anyone trying to push something I've not reasonable or legal obligation to adhear to. That is conversion. I have no objection to personal testimony and this has gone way beyond that to a conversion attempt. I validate no one. We both think each is unreasonable. I don't think you can jsutify your position considering the whole Bible. Part of which is clearly rejected. Sorry, but not an apology.

To each His own? Is that what Jesus or the apostles teach? No.

 

[BloodyRachel]

What is sex outside of marriage called?

Sex. Christianity says it's a sin.

 

[11822]

Then please tell me why the religous community submits to civil government and not God in religious issues such as the marriage ceremony and rite.

They submit to both laws but the law of marriage according to God officially supersedes any man made law when they contradict one another or come into conflict in any way. Jesus and the apostles teach us to obey civil authority, but not over Gods authority.

 

[SummaScriptura]

My challenge remains unanswered...

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Again I ask, is there anyone who defends the 10 Commandments for today who will tell me which of the other 603 commandments are still binding on the Church?

Further, if any are indeed binding it seems to me we need to know which are binding and why they are binding while others are now loosed.

Also, if any are indeed now loosed it seems to me we need to know which are now loosed and why they are now loosed while others remain binding.

Avoiding to answer this most important question seems to me to undermine the very thesis that the 10 Commandments are not loosed and are still bound up upon the yoke of the disciple of the Lord.

As I posted before, I affirm that now they are all loosed, all 613. What is now binding is the Law of Christ, and anything taught by the incarnate Word.

"Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah"— not knowing what he said. As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!' And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen" (Luke 9:28-36 ESV)

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Check out this list:

Descriptions of the Mosaic Law in the New Testament[/c]

 

[11822]

Many Christians do love to throw this definition for fornication around and claim it as an absolute truth. Scripture, however, does not support it as being sex out of marriage.

Any many like to throw out sound doctrine and replace it with man made laws and teaching.

 

[11822]

Nope you're trying to get me to say that I follow the law. Fat and Last Chance left town a long timae ago ad said they weren't ever coming back. I

Nope. I was getting to the truth according to the N.T.

 

[11822]

It is being used to point one to the law. Fornication is a distracting side issue.

It only distracts from the idea that we have no commandments because it is one. If Jesus commands us to abstain from fornication then its the Gospel truth.