Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (2)

[Elder 111]

well for one, it has the sabbath in it

Than you for your Honesty. That is the only problem I really hind that any advocate for abolishing the law has.
No person here or in any discussion I have had face to face has completely denied the 10. As much as it is said that it is abolished, still it will be stated that the christian should not lie, or steal, or murder or covet or what ever the 10 says. Always one objection Sabbath.
We should get strait to the point and not advocate that all have been removed because the bible does not support it, and all we try our conscience and common sense would not allow it. The Sabbath is the problem.

 

[Elder 111]

Who said there is something wrong with the sabbath? That isn't the focus of the thread. I think arguing for the sabbath is the real purpose of the thread though. If it can be established that Christians are obligated to the other 9 it then can included obligation to the 4th through the back door approach.

Is it the principle that missery loves company the driving force behind the continual effort to enslave Christians to the law issued to the COI. If it weren't for the 10 Cs issued at Sinai there would be no issue at all. They were issued to a specific group of people for a time. Both issues are firmlly established in Scripture as has been shown in this thread and its predecessor.

I ask if this is a valid Scripture showing that one can't have both the law as a requirement and grace to secure and maintain salvation (eternal life) - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If it is a sin to not observe the sabbath, isn't one just by keeping the sabbath? IOW justified by the law.

Is it reasonable to say that if one doesn't murder, lie, steal, commit adultery (as promoted) that they're obeying the law? IOW one life is regulated by the law whether they like it or not. Is this the free will taught in the NT? Or is it force? Why then isn't the sabbath enforced the same way? Isn't it also one of the 10 Cs? Incidence isn't obedience.

The ten commandments is misery? God law is misery? Serving God as the only God is misery? Not stealing or lying is misery?
Wake up. I know the holy Spirit would not leave you unaware that you are on the wrong side of the fence.

 

[11822]

How does this verse apply to the 10 commandments?

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

[MamaZ]

All who are born again and have the Holy Spirit indwelling, will not violate the 10 commandments, if not they will not show forth the fruit of the Spirit. True or false?

Well according to Paul ,He said why is it that the things that I want to do are far from me but the things that I don't want to do I do? It is no longer I that do them but sin that dwelleth within me. We see the lusts of the flesh. That is sin that dwells within a person. Due to the fall of man. There is no law if one walks by the Spirit. Scripture teaches us that. Against these there is no Law. The law is a minister of Death. Why on earth would I be worried about a minister of death? I keep my eyes upon Jesus the author and finisher of my faith. For in Him is life and that more abundantly. So I would say that even those who are born again and have the HS sin against the law. I have even witnessed it here on this thread. I have witnessed it in my own life and in the life of other Christians. For the law brings death and condemnation. But for us in Christ Jesus there is therefore no condemation.

 

[MamaZ]

Don't believe, make sure. Our salvation depends on it.

scripture was given after my statment. My salvation depends only on Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

So do some believe that our salvation depends on the law?

 

[IreneAdler]

All who are born again and have the Holy Spirit indwelling, will not violate the 10 commandments, if not they will not show forth the fruit of the Spirit. True or false?

False ( just because he's there doesn't mean we can't disregard him or fall away)

 

[11822]

So do some believe that our salvation depends on the law?

Jesus said that if we don't forgive we wont be forgiven. Does this mean that obeying the law of love is a requirement for salvation?

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus said that if we don't forgive we wont be forgiven. Does this mean that obeying the law of love is a requirement for salvation?

I was referring to the post where elder said our salvation depends on it.

 

[Lysimachus]

you.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but may I ask why even say it if you're not at least going to elaborate a little bit as to why?

 

[IreneAdler]

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether." (Psalms 19:7-9)

It is the Law of God that leads you to Christ, which in turn sanctifies you. Jesus is the Word, and the Word is Jesus. When you open your Bible and read the written law, it is the Words of the Spirit that are speaking to you. Do not separate the written law from the Spirit of God. They are ONLY different when the written words do not transfer from the pages to your heart. But if they do transfer to the heart, there is no difference.

I would love to but I'm not even sure how to articulate why I think it's wrong.
I think it has to do with the personification of the Word, the way you're interpreting it that just sits crooked, particularly the last two sentences of the last paragraph.

 

[11822]

Why does Jesus teach the law Here if He didn't want us to obey it?


Mathew chapter 5

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Mathew Chapter 7:

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Did Jesus abolish the 10 Cs or did He support them?

 

[Lysimachus]

I think this is an important text, whichever side of the argument you come down on. I am still looking at this and other passages myself.

But the discussion starts with a question of what is LAWFUL.


Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
Mar 2:25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:
Mar 2:26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?"


Jesus references a portion of the OT Scriptures to show what David did--eating something that was lawful only for the priests to eat, and giving it to others. So He discusses with them in the context of the OT system of sacrifice, etc. citing another case of a central figure doing something that was unlawful.

Discussion of the law is the context of the verse.

And the man comment is in connection with Jesus saying the Son of MAN (same word) is Lord of the Sabbath.

Mar 2:27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."

Jesus' juxtaposition of man and Son of Man certainly seems intentional here.

So several questions come up. How did Jesus usually use the phrase Son of Man?

Does it mainly have reference to Jesus' connection to humanity, or to a more messianic view such as the one like a son of man in Daniel 7's judgment scene?

What is the point Jesus is trying to make with the story of David?

Is Jesus agreeing this was unlawful, or was He saying it was lawful, yet allowed?


I don't yet know all the answers to these questions. But I would say this is one of the stronger texts for the pro-sabbatarian argument.

I agree with the context you laid out here tall73.

I will comment on a couple points, however. When I see that the emphasis of Jesus' point is "what is lawful to do on the Sabbath", this, to me, automatically implies that there are "unlawful things to do on the Sabbath". For if Christ did not believe the Seventh-Day Sabbath was to be kept by all mankind, why didn't He just argue with the Pharisees that the Sabbath is no longer important?

Had Jesus been living in our day, His approach would have had to have been totally different. In Jesus' day, you had the pendulum shifted way to the right, where legalistic Judaism was at its peak. For Christ to place His emphasis on keeping the Sabbath would have completely defeated His purpose in reaching out to the Jews who were way in left-field about Sabbath keeping.

It would seem to me, then, that Christ's argument leaned more toward what is spoken of in Isaiah 58:13,14, where the Sabbath is to be a "delight". Clearly, the exacting, burdensome, rigorous rules being imposed on the Sabbath by the Tulmud had turned the day into a miserable "burden".

As for the "Son of Man". We have to remember that everything about Christ is "Judo-centric". Forgive me if I'm wrong, however, but it appears that you are implying that "perhaps" this lends credence to the possibility of the Sabbath being tied only to the Jews because it is a Messianic prophecy in Daniel 7? Or maybe I'm just not digesting what you are implying could be derived from Daniel 7.

One thing that from scratch doesn't seem to take into account is that we Sabbatarians do agree that the Sabbath was only given to Israel. When He gave it to Israel, however, there were no other nations on the planet who believed in Jehovah! So how can the Sabbath be for a nation who does not believe in Jehovah? It is impossible. Therefore, the Sabbath can only be given to Israel. But once Israel fulfills its duty, and commission, to bring other nations into the covenant blessings of their Father Abraham, so that all nations might be blessed, all these nations are grafted into the stock of Israel, and they become "part of Israel".

In fact, in Isaiah 61:1-11, it prophesies the day when it will be the strangers who will build the old wastes and raise up the former desolations of Israel, and these strangers would be the ones to stand and feed the flock, and would be the plowmen and vinedressers for the vineyard, Israel.

 

[MamaZ]

It is the Law of God that leads you to Christ, which in turn sanctifies you. Jesus is the Word, and the Word is Jesus. When you open your Bible and read the written law, it is the Words of the Spirit that are speaking to you. Do not separate the written law from the Spirit of God. They are ONLY different when the written words do not transfer from the pages to your heart. But if they do transfer to the heart, there is no difference.

How does the law lead you to Christ? The law brings condemation and death.

 

[MamaZ]

Why does Jesus teach the law Here if He didn't want us to obey it?


Mathew chapter 5

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Mathew Chapter 7:

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Did Jesus abolish the 10 Cs or did He support them?

He completed them and nailed them to the cross.

 

[Lysimachus]

How does the law lead you to Christ? The law brings condemation and death.

The Law brings condemnation and death, why? Because we are sinners. The Law only has power to condemn the sinner. It is like the mirror where you see your blemishes and sins. When you look in the mirror (the law), what do you see? You see your sins. You see that you are a miserable wretch, and you see that you are filthy. You see that you are full of stains, and need washing. Therefore, it is then that you see your need of a Saviour. But not until you see that you are a sinner will you realize that you need a Saviour to save you from your sins.

So then you turn to Christ, ask for forgiveness and be repentant. It is the law that brings us to our knees to Christ, because it is only through the Law that we see that we are sinners, for "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). That's what sin is! "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13) And, "by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20)

The Law brings condemnation and death to the sinner who does not see His need of a Saviour, and does not see that he is a sinner. If you do not recognize the Holiness of the law of God, you don't see your sin. And therefore, you don't see your need of a Saviour. The law condemns such an individual.

The Law leads one to Christ only when he recognizes his sinful nature and sees that he is in a need of a cleansing Saviour to wash away his sins. When we come to Christ, He DELIVERS us from the condemning power of the law by bestowing His grace which is sufficient for us to overcome sin. Hence Jesus says "Go and sin no more" (John 8:11). And what is sin? The transgression of the law! Obeying the law does not bring death when it is done in Christ. The law only brings death when it is being willfully violated. People who violate the law are "under the law", "under the penalty of death for transgressing it". Under it's condemning, scrutinizing power. Only those who are under God's Grace are delivered from its condemning power, but this only comes by repentance. Repentance for what? For breaking the law! (aka, sinning). But repentance does not mean "that right after, we have license to go willfully sin (aka, break the law)". No no NO! God now expects you to "GO and sin no more", and this is where the process of "sanctification" comes in. Sanctification is the next process after Justification (declared righteous from past deeds). Now sanctification comes in by the continuing process of overcoming FUTURE and ONCOMING sinful desires!

Hebrews 12:14 says... "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."


P.S. [EDIT] And just so you know, even those who are non-Sabbatarians and argue against it constantly, will agree that it is the Law that leads you to Christ, because it reveals your need of a Saviour. This is orthodox Christian theology, and well-researched at that. They just argue and say we're dealing with new law now.

 

[Lysimachus]

He completed them and nailed them to the cross.

What an utter load of "HOO CHA CHA!" Nothing but BIRD CHIRPING GIBBERISH. WOW!

So, Jesus completed not killing, so we can kill now?

So, Jesus didn't commit adultery, and completed it, so we can go commit adultery now?

So, Jesus honored His parents, so we can go dishonor our parents now?

So, Jesus didn't worship idols, and completed it, so now we can go worship idols now?

So, Jesus never told a lie, and bore no false witness, so we can go lie now?

So, Jesus never stole, and "finished" it, so we can go steal now?

Why don't you just admit that your real issue is with the 4th commandment?

If it wasn't for that pesky 4th commandment, with all due respect, I don't believe you would be saying this hoo cha cha nonsense. I don't say this to be derogatory, or condescending, but seriously, these kinds of statements do spark reactions in me when they appear so far from the realm of logic and reason!

I feel this statement reveals great ignorance concerning what really happened at the cross.

 

[11822]

He completed them and nailed them to the cross.

The 10 Cs are acts of love and we are not complete without those acts of Love.
Jesus said we must treat each other the way we want to be treated which means not Killing them, committing adultery against them, stealing from them or in any way hurting them. To say Gods laws are finished is like saying that we shall kill, covet and steal under the the law of faith.


Mathew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

 

[IreneAdler]

common sense says doing those things is harmful (to ourselves as well). it's as much self preservation as it is outward love. those things are as beneficial our way as others. there are more laws everyone likes to ignore though. (why does everyone ignore those?)

 

[11822]

Here is Jesus teaching law. The law is not finished. Notice how Jesus lumps the adultery commandment at the top with the love commandment at the bottom


Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you