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An Empirical Theory Of God

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Michael

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The limiting factor is the transport of information, yes. It's possible that the entirety of 'mental' processing happens within this planetary system but how does that work with the rest of the plasma in the universe? Does that mean that it takes thousands or millions of years for one part of its brain to receive information from another?

I really suppose that depends on the "carrier particle" of awareness. If you're correct, and electrons are the only thing that carries "awareness", perhaps there is a speed limit to awareness. If "awareness" is carried by something 'other than' matter, perhaps not. It's interesting to me that you expect me to believe that "expansion" (of a physical universe full of matter) is not limited to the speed of light, yet the you also apparently *insist* that awareness is necessarily limited to the speed of light.

I'm not sure it actually works that way. I'll come back to your 'continuum' comment and suggest that perhaps a "disturbance in the continuum" of awareness is simply "made available" in the awareness continuum, everywhere at once. I'm simply not sure how or what carries "awareness" just yet. Those single cell behaviors that seem to demonstrate a crude sort of "awareness" would suggest that a centralized "brain" is apparently 'optional' in some cases. :)

IMO there are *plenty* enough circuits inside and outside the sun to explain more than a "primitive" form of awareness. How that information is ultimately conveyed to the whole is really beyond my ability to know just yet.
 
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Michael

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'Circuitry' seems to imply something more akin to electronics than sporadic and (by all appearances) wholly non-concious plasma sparks. Are you saying that a solar flare is on par with neurological synapses? That they create conciousness?

I cannot be sure that they do not give rise to consciousness, can you?

It's certainly a possibility, but I've yet to see any evidence.
Exactly what type of 'evidence' might you accept, assuming I'm correct, yet not personally able to "control" that being?

Perhaps, but you seem to be implying that it substantiates pantheism - how? If there's no evidence to suggest that the electrical phenomena in space and in stars are concious, how can pantheism be any more credible than it was before?
Well, for starters, we've learned that circuitry is in fact involved in "awareness" in virtually all living things. It's definitely found in all higher life forms. Pantheism would tend to predict that similar types of "circuitry" in space would also tend to point us toward a "conscious" universe. It's a "prediction" of pantheism. ;)

They're hardly logical reasons. Millions of people believing something hardly makes it true - you yourself pointed out the fallacy of an argumentum ad populum.
What makes you believe mainstream theory is "right' again?

Why is inflation impossible?
Well, for starters, it defies the laws of physics as we understand them as it relates to density/volume. Apparently Guth endowed his entity with "supernatural" density defying properties that allow it to grow exponentially (many many times) yet experience virtually no loss of density, unlike light and the EM field and every other KNOWN force of nature. Talk about putting your faith in "supernatural" entities! Empirical strike one.

It also apparently required "negative pressure" from a vacuum (another physical impossibility). Strike two.

Lastly and most amusingly, his original theory was actually falsified, but "replaced" with a "new and improved" supernatural entity. :) Now there are apparently almost as many unique "flavors' of inflation to choose from as the are stars in the heavens. :) Strike three.

If that is indeed the case, so what? Later programs still verify his theory, the evidence still bears it out. We've had 30 years to perform experiments that test inflation, and none have been able to disprove it.
Notice how you expect me to 'disprove' inflation, you don't expect them to empirically verify anything? Suppose we turn that around and say billions of years have gone by and none have been able to disprove God. Would you find that statement to be a "convincing empirical argument" in favor of God?

Question: in your opinion, what experiment would disprove inflation?
I don't believe it's possible to do that. I've seen them blithely ignore "holes" in the theory, "dark flows" in their theory, common "dust" they refuse to deal with, and extra stars galore they evidently intend to simply sweep under the carpet. I have absolutely no illusion that anything is likely to change anytime soon.

Dark matter and energy are placeholders to mass and energy which appears to exert a gravitational pull, yet doesn't interact with photons directly.
"Invisible entities"? Really? Why put your faith in one invisible entity and not another? Just because they tell you to?

Dark matter could be made up of a large number of wholly unrelated things. We don't, at present, know what it is (or they are), we just know what some of their properties are.
We evidently now KNOW that they simply 'botched' the mass estimation of galaxies because they failed to account for the dust properly, and they failed to estimate the correct number of smaller stars compared to the larger ones that we can actually observe in telescopes. Thus far it's been three years and counting and they haven't budged a single percentage of "exotic" matter. They're stalling. The moment they admit they botched the mass estimation process, they have to admit that there may be no 'exotic' matter out there at all.

I also find it ironic that you, an apparent Christian, use terms like 'invisible sky gods' in a derogatory way.
God lights up my sky every single day and night. He's certainly not "invisible", and he has a material effect on me here on Earth, unlike Guth's dead inflation deity. ;)
 
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sandwiches

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I really suppose that depends on the "carrier particle" of awareness. If you're correct, and electrons are the only thing that carries "awareness", perhaps there is a speed limit to awareness. If "awareness" is carried by something 'other than' matter, perhaps not. It's interesting to me that you expect me to believe that "expansion" (of a physical universe full of matter) is not limited to the speed of light, yet the you also apparently *insist* that awareness is necessarily limited to the speed of light.
So, you're saying that you don't believe that the universe could be expanding faster than the speed of light but you're perfectly content with believing that 'awareness,' somehow, without explanation can?

I'm not sure it actually works that way. I'll come back to your 'continuum' comment and suggest that perhaps a "disturbance in the continuum" of awareness is simply "made available" in the awareness continuum, everywhere at once.
I don't think you understood what I meant by continuum as you're using phrases that don't apply to my point or to what a continuum is.

I'm simply not sure how or what carries "awareness" just yet. Those single cell behaviors that seem to demonstrate a crude sort of "awareness" would suggest that a centralized "brain" is apparently 'optional' in some cases. :)
They display reactions to their environment. Nothing magical or special about that. No need for brains for that to happen as evidenced by viruses and other chemical reactions.

IMO there are *plenty* enough circuits inside and outside the sun to explain more than a "primitive" form of awareness.
I said nothing of "primitive" anything.
How that information is ultimately conveyed to the whole is really beyond my ability to know just yet.
First step is finding this awareness, I'd say. Then we can focus on how it works.
 
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Michael

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So, you're saying that you don't believe that the universe could be expanding faster than the speed of light but you're perfectly content with believing that 'awareness,' somehow, without explanation can?

Yes. I do not believe that a universe filled with plasma/mass is capable of expanding faster than light, nor do I believe it is necessary to 'interpret' redshift patterns in that way. Tired light theories (typically based on Compton scattering processes) work as well for me as any other so called "explanation" for that particular phenomenon. Assuming it is actually "expanding", its most likely the EM field, and/or (external) gravity doing the "accelerating" of a mostly plasma universe.

On the other hand, when we leave the realm of GR theory and into the realm of quantum physics, there are at least in "theory" some "particles/fields" that are theoretically capable of traveling faster than light. I have no idea what the carrier particle of awareness might be. If it's something related to quantum physics and not electrons, light speed may not be the limit of the propagation speed of raw "information".

I don't think you understood what I meant by continuum as you're using phrases that don't apply to my point or to what a continuum is.

I should probably start by asking you exactly what you mean by that term and how it applies to awareness in your opinion?

They display reactions to their environment. Nothing magical or special about that. No need for brains for that to happen as evidenced by viruses and other chemical reactions.

IMO you're oversimplifying the issue just a bit:

Amoebas Anticipate Climate Change -- Physics News Update 852

First step is finding this awareness, I'd say. Then we can focus on how it works.

So assuming we cannot actually "control" the universe (which we obviously cannot do) and it happens to be "aware", how would you suggest we look at the energy patterns to determine if it's "aware", and what exactly would you accept as "evidence" of a macroscopic awareness based in unlimited numbers of 'circuits' in space?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I cannot be sure that they do not give rise to consciousness, can you?
No, which is why I don't affirm that they don't. But neither do I affirm that they do - you're making the claim, not me.

Exactly what type of 'evidence' might you accept, assuming I'm correct, yet not personally able to "control" that being?
I'm not sure any evidence is even possible, at least at this stage in human affairs. Nonetheless, you believe in it, so you presumably do have evidence.

Well, for starters, we've learned that circuitry is in fact involved in "awareness" in virtually all living things. It's definitely found in all higher life forms. Pantheism would tend to predict that similar types of "circuitry" in space would also tend to point us toward a "conscious" universe. It's a "prediction" of pantheism. ;)
Perhaps, but it's by no means proven that 'circuits' in space do anything like the circuits in a human brain - at best, they both carry an electric charge. By that prediction, my computer, with its fantastic array of circuitry, constitutes part of the brain of God, no?

Well, for starters, it defies the laws of physics as we understand them as it relates to density/volume. Apparently Guth endowed his entity with "supernatural" density defying properties that allow it to grow exponentially (many many times) yet experience virtually no loss of density, unlike light and the EM field and every other KNOWN force of nature. Talk about putting your faith in "supernatural" entities! Empirical strike one.
You're referring to the energy density of the universe, which remained largely constant due to spacetime expanding faster than the energy could expand into it - during the inflationary period, there wasn't enough time for energy to 'spread out' and lower its density, and the inflaton field itself decayed into yet more excess energy, contributing to a constant energy density.

Imagine someone walking along and sprinkling salt behind them. Even though their path length is getting longer and longer, the salt density stays the same - because, in increasing their path length, they also lay down more salt. Similarly, it is hypothesised that the inflaton field 'lays down' more matter and energy as it decayed, keeping the energy density constant.

Lastly and most amusingly, his original theory was actually falsified, but "replaced" with a "new and improved" supernatural entity. :) Now there are apparently almost as many unique "flavors' of inflation to choose from as the are stars in the heavens. :) Strike three.
Why is this a 'strike'? If Guth's original theory has been disproven and replaced by a better theory (akin to Classical Mechanics being replaced with Quantum and Relativistic Mechanics), surely that constitutes an improvement of the theory? Darwin's original hypothesis has ostensibly been disproven, but so what? We don't use Darwin's original idea, we use the modern synthesis. Similarly, if inflation has been improved upon, we should use and criticise the most up-to-date version. For instance, Guth hypothesised that the Higgs field caused inflation, but we now know this is not the case.

Notice how you expect me to 'disprove' inflation, you don't expect them to empirically verify anything? Suppose we turn that around and say billions of years have gone by and none have been able to disprove God. Would you find that statement to be a "convincing empirical argument" in favor of God?
Yes, if falsification tests had been performed and had routinely come out in favour of God. They haven't. Inflation, on the other hand, has been routinely vindicated by falsification tests: it has been consistently vindicated, and not one test has ever disproven it.

That's how science works. We seek to disprove things.

I don't believe it's possible to do that.
So you don't believe it is possible to disprove inflation. Marvellous. Why, then, do you denounce it as false, when here you say there's no possible way to prove that it is indeed false?

"Invisible entities"? Really? Why put your faith in one invisible entity and not another? Just because they tell you to?
No. Because, while I'm not as smart as eminent cosmologists, I can analyse the same evidence and I've come to the same conclusion.

We evidently now KNOW that they simply 'botched' the mass estimation of galaxies because they failed to account for the dust properly, and they failed to estimate the correct number of smaller stars compared to the larger ones that we can actually observe in telescopes.
Source?

God lights up my sky every single day and night. He's certainly not "invisible", and he has a material effect on me here on Earth, unlike Guth's dead inflation deity. ;)
Again, you seem to be worshipping the Sun - how do you know the Sun is not just a ball of incandescent hydrogen? What makes you think it is, in fact, God? The sheer fact that it is involved in some electrical phenomena?
 
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Michael

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No, which is why I don't affirm that they don't. But neither do I affirm that they do - you're making the claim, not me.

Well, at least I can provide an empirical chain of evidenced linking circuitry and awareness. That's more than you can do with inflation and the movement of mass/energy. The universe also has very cyclical behaviors that are consistent with living things, another thing that leaves inflation theory in the dust. It experience chemical and electrical transfers of energy like living things. Again, that more empirical linking of ideas than you will EVER be able to do with inflation and what you claim inflation can do.

I'm not sure any evidence is even possible, at least at this stage in human affairs. Nonetheless, you believe in it, so you presumably do have evidence.
I do have physical evidence to support all the various aspects of this theory, and it's entirely consistent with human experiences as recorded in human history. It's consistent with near death experiences as well. For a "cosmology" theory, that pretty darn good if you ask me.

Perhaps, but it's by no means proven that 'circuits' in space do anything like the circuits in a human brain - at best, they both carry an electric charge. By that prediction, my computer, with its fantastic array of circuitry, constitutes part of the brain of God, no?
Not really. It's not "plugged into the Godnet". :) It's pretty autonomous actually. :)

You're referring to the energy density of the universe, which remained largely constant due to spacetime expanding faster than the energy could expand into it
Wow. That's about as "metaphysical" of a genesis chapter you have going as any I've seen. "Spacetime" cannot and does not exist in the absence of matter, and it cannot "expand" until and unless the matter that composes "spacetime" expands. If the matter doesn't expand, spacetime doesn't expand. You've evidently disconnected "spacetime" from physics entirely in your creation mythology.

- during the inflationary period, there wasn't enough time for energy to 'spread out' and lower its density, and the inflaton field itself decayed into yet more excess energy, contributing to a constant energy density.
Huh? Try that with electrons and tell me how you get electrons 'decaying' into ever larger numbers of electrons? You're violating a law of physics there!

Imagine someone walking along and sprinkling salt behind them. Even though their path length is getting longer and longer, the salt density stays the same - because, in increasing their path length, they also lay down more salt. Similarly, it is hypothesised that the inflaton field 'lays down' more matter and energy as it decayed, keeping the energy density constant.
You evidently have a magic energy creating dead sky god that violates the law of physics that claims that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.

Why is this a 'strike'? If Guth's original theory has been disproven and replaced by a better theory (akin to Classical Mechanics being replaced with Quantum and Relativistic Mechanics), surely that constitutes an improvement of the theory? .......

Inflation, on the other hand, has been routinely vindicated by falsification tests: it has been consistently vindicated, and not one test has ever disproven it.
I chopped a bit out of your post to put these two lines together. In the first statement you *admit* that Guth's brand of inflation theory has in fact been falsified. In the next breath you claim that not one test has ever disproven inflation. Notice a contradiction between these two statements? One metaphysical brand of inflation is dead, but since new metaphysical brands keep popping it up all the time, it's a bit like a metaphysical "whack-a-mole" process.

Darwin's original hypothesis has ostensibly been disproven, but so what? We don't use Darwin's original idea, we use the modern synthesis. Similarly, if inflation has been improved upon, we should use and criticise the most up-to-date version. For instance, Guth hypothesised that the Higgs field caused inflation, but we now know this is not the case.
The difference is that microscopic evolution happens on Earth today and the Hox gene tests demonstrate that even macroscopic evolution is possible. Guths inflation deity is impotent on Earth. That's the empirical difference between them.

Yes, if falsification tests had been performed and had routinely come out in favour of God. They haven't.
Sure they do. You've never disproven my theories....

That's how science works. We seek to disprove things.
Essentially God has never been 'disproven' anymore than inflation can or has been "disproven". By your logic it too must be 'true'.

So you don't believe it is possible to disprove inflation. Marvellous. Why, then, do you denounce it as false, when here you say there's no possible way to prove that it is indeed false?
One brand can be proven false, but as you noted, there are "new and improved" metaphysical versions just waiting to be written. Nobody could falsify all of them anymore than you could falsify every theory of God.

No. Because, while I'm not as smart as eminent cosmologists, I can analyse the same evidence and I've come to the same conclusion.
Oddly you came to exactly the same conclusion they did, without even reading Guth's original paper AFAIK. Group think is like that.

I provided a link yesterday.

Again, you seem to be worshipping the Sun
No, I worship "God" and only God.

- how do you know the Sun is not just a ball of incandescent hydrogen?
How do I know my own body is not just a collection of various elements?

What makes you think it is, in fact, God? The sheer fact that it is involved in some electrical phenomena?
Well, that is in fact *one* good empirical reason. It is one empirical link to awareness and therefore a support of pantheism which is at least ONE more empirical form of support than inflation will *ever* enjoy.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Wow. That's about as "metaphysical" of a genesis chapter you have going as any I've seen. "Spacetime" cannot and does not exist in the absence of matter, and it cannot "expand" until and unless the matter that composes "spacetime" expands. If the matter doesn't expand, spacetime doesn't expand. You've evidently disconnected "spacetime" from physics entirely in your creation mythology.
Your concept of spacetime differs from that of myself, and indeed of everyone else. Relativity, for instance, treats spacetime as a medium wherein matter and energy lie, and it is a separate entity unto itself. It can affect and be affected by mass, for instance. So I disagree with your proclamations that ""Spacetime" cannot and does not exist in the absence of matter", and "[spacetime] cannot "expand" until and unless the matter that composes "spacetime" expands".

Huh? Try that with electrons and tell me how you get electrons 'decaying' into ever larger numbers of electrons? You're violating a law of physics there!
Why? One particle can decay into a shower of other particles. This is a routine occurance in particle physics. Who's to say that inflatons cannot decay into, say, 1TJ photons? Pointing out that electrons don't do this is irrelevant, and belies your misunderstanding of the whole thing.

You evidently have [an inflaton] that violates the law of physics that claims that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.
Please show me where the inflaton violates the laws of physics by decaying into other particles.

I chopped a bit out of your post to put these two lines together. In the first statement you *admit* that Guth's brand of inflation theory has in fact been falsified. In the next breath you claim that not one test has ever disproven inflation. Notice a contradiction between these two statements?
No. Notice the qualifying word at the beginning of the first? Here it is again:

"IF Guth's original theory has been disproven and replaced by a better theory..."

One metaphysical brand of inflation is dead, but since new metaphysical brands keep popping it up all the time, it's a bit like a metaphysical "whack-a-mole" process.
Indeed. Welcome to academia, baby.

The difference is that microscopic evolution happens on Earth today and the Hox gene tests demonstrate that even macroscopic evolution is possible. Guths inflation deity is impotent on Earth. That's the empirical difference between them.
Even if that were the case (notice the 'if'), so what? That fact alone doesn't disprove inflation.

Sure they do. You've never disproven my theories....
But not because they've passed every test, but rather because no test has been put to them.

Essentially God has never been 'disproven' anymore than inflation can or has been "disproven". By your logic it too must be 'true'.
Please show where I made the claim that "Everything that hasn't been disproven, is true".

One brand can be proven false, but as you noted, there are "new and improved" metaphysical versions just waiting to be written. Nobody could falsify all of them anymore than you could falsify every theory of God.
Then I repeat my question: why do you denounce inflation as being false, when you yourself admit it cannot be disproven?

Oddly you came to exactly the same conclusion they did, without even reading Guth's original paper AFAIK. Group think is like that.
Why would I need to read a paper from the 1980s to learn about and evaluate a theory that has had 30 years of development? I could read it, just as I could read On the Origin of Species to get a grasp of evolution - but I don't need to. The best evidence has been found after the publication of the paper, so why on Earth would I read the original paper?

No, I worship "God" and only God.
"God lights up my sky every single day and night."
What are you referring to, if not the Sun?

How do I know my own body is not just a collection of various elements?
How indeed. By all appearances, that's all you are. That's all any of us is.

Well, that is in fact *one* good empirical reason. It is one empirical link to awareness and therefore a support of pantheism which is at least ONE more empirical form of support than inflation will *ever* enjoy.
Why is it an empirical reason? Like I said, my computer also has circuitry, but I don't see pantheists bowing before it.
 
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Hespera

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My boyfriend and I were driving across Kansas one night, and listening to "Coat to Coast".

There was this guy on, he was talking about how what was it, the UFOs, hollow earth, pyramids, bigfoot, illuminati, the bible code, bermuda triangle etc were all connected.

My boyfriend said "This guy has a really serious case of correlation sickness".

i guess he thought up the term, but it seemed to me it did a good job of expressing what was going on in that guys head.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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My boyfriend and I were driving across Kansas one night, and listening to "Coat to Coast".

There was this guy on, he was talking about how what was it, the UFOs, hollow earth, pyramids, bigfoot, illuminati, the bible code, bermuda triangle etc were all connected.

My boyfriend said "This guy has a really serious case of correlation sickness".

i guess he thought up the term, but it seemed to me it did a good job of expressing what was going on in that guys head.
The brain has an insatiable need to find patterns. Number one rule of statistical analysis: correlation does not imply causation :p.
 
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Rajni

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All of these pieces of empirical evidence point us toward the possibility that everything around us is a part of a living being called God.
This sort of reminds me of the Gaia hypothesis. Interesting!!
 
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Seamus Riley

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the UFOs, hollow earth, pyramids, bigfoot, illuminati, the bible code, bermuda triangle etc were all connected.


i heard this one: the way i remembered it UFOs coming from the bermuda triangle directed the illuminati to construct the pyramids from blue prints deciphered from the bible code by bigfoot from within the hollow earth. but the theory has failed to include the crucial element of the annunaki reptilians who constructed the ufos in the first place. think about it...rh negative (reptilians) and rh positive (apes)...king kong vs godzilla. the writing is on the wall people...

my opinion however is that wiccan child is absolutely correct.


The brain has an insatiable need to find patterns. Number one rule of statistical analysis: correlation does not imply causation :p.
 
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Doveaman

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This sort of reminds me of the Gaia hypothesis. Interesting!!
Is it a case of science confirming the theology? :)

“He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” -- “'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'” - Col 1:17, Acts 17:28.
 
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Hespera

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Is it a case of science confirming the theology? :)

“He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” -- “'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'” - Col 1:17, Acts 17:28.


Oh my, try to follow the conversation!
 
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Rajni

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Is it a case of science confirming the theology? :)

“He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” -- “'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'” - Col 1:17, Acts 17:28.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. :thumbsup:
.
 
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