Bible-Creation-Evolution (3)

[TheReasoner]

I posted this in another thread called 'debate is dead' and somebody argued that it was just 'arbitrary rules' I was trying to impose...

teehee

well, if you know your position is worthless but refuse to accept that I suppose you need to resort to fallacies.

 

[mzungu]

Faith Guardian, you might want to take a look around you -- at some of the other posters here like Split Rock, Thaumaturgy, Nathan Poe, and California [something].

These guys, at one time, were where you are now -- i.e. Church-going believers who read their Bibles.

But at some point in their life, their allegiance to science led them to having questions that their undershepherds couldn't answer, and the cognitive dissonance was so great, they are now no longer believers -- (guys, please correct me, if I'm wrong).

I get the impression you're on that path as well, but [Ar Cosc take note of these next 4 words:] I could be wrong.

If you don't fall completely away, it's probably because you are a nanotech, and don't see nature as they do, from their respective fields.

In short, these guys love science and nature just as you do, but apparently you see something (or Something) in nature that they once saw, but no longer do; and I'm afraid for you, lest you too err from grace.

This is exactly the result of mixing religion [which is a faith based spiritual guide] with science!

If anyone is to blame then most of it must go to the die hard creationists who insisted that creationism must be taught in schools as science. The moment religion stepped into the realms of science then one has to scrutinise religion the same way science is scrutinised. Obviously science comes the winner due to empirical evidences and theories as opposed to the sayings of a single book written millennia ago.

Most scientists used to be devout believers in their faiths until the above trait entered their lives.

If Christianity wants to gain and not loose then it must return to the original path of being a spiritual guide and not a scientific manual. I have noticed that fundamental creationists in CF do more harm to Christianity than good.

AV; I think that atheists are the least threat to Christianity; Look into your flock to find the real devil!

 

[AV1611VET]

You think that with your complete LACK of knowledge about science and how it works, as well as your steadfast refusal to listen to any evidence that disagrees however slightly with your preconceived conclusions about the Bible, you can add something of merit to this discussion?

Yes, I do, Tiberius -- until you show me this evidence that disagrees with how the Bible says the universe came into existence, there's really nothing to discuss.

You guys keep accusing me of not listening to evidence to creationism, yet you won't give me one data point that defeats Genesis 1:1.

Have a look at this, AV...

I've seen this flowchart before, and it applies to you as well.

 

[AV1611VET]

If anyone is to blame then most of it must go to the die hard creationists who insisted that creationism must be taught in schools as science.

And that leaves me out, doesn't it?

I've said for years that creationism is not ... repeat: is not ... science.

It is history -- yet still I'm ridiculed.

This tells me that whether we claim creationism is science, or whether we claim creationism is history -- it doesn't matter with you guys.

So don't expect me to believe that we are the ones to blame.

I'm not buying that one bit.

 

[TheReasoner]

And that leaves me out, doesn't it?

I've said for years that creationism is not ... repeat: is not ... science.

It is history -- yet still I'm ridiculed.

Because it is not history either. It is one interpretation of one of several creation parables which do not agree with one another. It is contradicted by everything around us. Calling it history is just the same as calling Peer Gynt history. It isn't. Peer Gynt is an excellent piece of social criticism and cultural analysis, but it's not history. In the same way the creation parable is a good way of dumbing down a much much more complex truth to the basal components which are important across cultural and intellectual divides. It shows us that we're sinful and that God made the world. That we fall short and need to strive for a better relationship with God.

This tells me that whether we claim creationism is science, or whether we claim creationism is history -- it doesn't matter with you guys.

Because it's a silly claim. History is well documented and usually when it's something this big leaves a trail to follow. But the ONLY thing supporting you is you. Not the bible. Not creation. Not logic. Only you. So why believe you?

So don't expect me to believe that we are the ones to blame.

I'm not buying that one bit.

Well, you are. Like I've said before I find no better argument against Christianity than creationism. Of course I find that one exceedingly bad, but...
Not only is it inconsistent and well, bad, it's also detracting from the focus we are SUPPOSED to have on love and compassion.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because it is not history either.

I understand what you're saying, but I get ridiculed when I claim it is not science.

You guys ridicule us for one reason, and one reason only: we believe in it, and you don't.

 

[TheReasoner]

I understand what you're saying, but I get ridiculed when I claim it is not science.

I don't see that. I see your position being pointed out as nonsensical because it is, and because you consistently fail to defend it, or present any data when asked. You just run around in circles claiming you're right because you're right because you're right. Despite the fact that your position is inconsistent even when one excludes all other factors than the bible.

You guys ridicule us for one reason, and one reason only: we believe in it, and you don't.

No, AV. We try to show you that your position is wrong. It becomes ridiculous when you insist it's right despite it's falsehood being extremely evident. It's like standing in front of the white house and denying it's existence and the existence of the USA. It's ridiculous.

I don't scoff at holocaust deniers because they believe something I don't, I scoff at them because they disbelieve something which is as evident as the nose in the middle of a [normal] human face. The same is true for creationists.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't see that.

That's your problem -- not mine.

I see your position being pointed out as nonsensical because it is, and because you consistently fail to defend it, or present any data when asked.

I don't present any data when asked, because no data was generated -- as my Apple Challenge demonstrates.

 

[TheReasoner]

That's your problem -- not mine.

Yeah. You do not have any problems, do you AV?

I don't present any data when asked, because no data was generated -- as my Apple Challenge demonstrates.

Oh, but why does ALL relevant data contradict you then? Why doesn't ANY support you?
And furthermore, why doesn't even the bible read literally agree with you?

 

[Greg1234]

This tells me that whether we claim creationism is science, or whether we claim creationism is history -- it doesn't matter with you guys.

You will call it something that is subjugated by their belief, or you will be ridiculed.

Call it "rubbish" or "fiction", sayi ts "unrelated to reality". You'll gain their undying love lol

 

[AV1611VET]

Yeah. You do not have any problems, do you AV?

When it comes to creationism, which is my major forte, no I don't.

Oh, but why does ALL relevant data contradict you then?

You show me data from Day One of the Creation event that contradicts how God did it, and I'll consider what you have to say.

I'm not interested in collective data that supposedly refutes all six days at one time -- if you can't refute each day separately, starting with Day One, then you can't refute creationism with scientific data at all.

 

[TheReasoner]

You will call it something that is subjugated by their belief, or you will be ridiculed.

Call it "rubbish" or "fiction", sayi ts "unrelated to reality". You'll gain their undying love lol

Greg, I was wondering, do you really believe proteins are fictional? Or was that a joke?

 

[AV1611VET]

Call it "rubbish" or "fiction", sayi ts "unrelated to reality". You'll gain their undying love

That's so true, Greg.

This is why people like Faith Guardian and Lucaspa aren't ridiculed like you and I are (although, I have to admit, Hespera did have enough backbone to take Lucaspa on).

Remember what happened during Jesus' six [illegal] trials, just before He was crucified?

Luke 23:12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.

My pastor is not very well liked in our ministerial association here in town, and he couldn't care less.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

My pastor is not very well liked in our ministerial association here in town, and he couldn't care less.

Is persecution the only sign that you're doing something right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is persecution the only sign that you're doing something right?

The only one? no, but can you think of a better one?

 

[TheReasoner]

That's so true, Greg.

This is why people like Faith Guardian and Lucaspa aren't ridiculed like you and I are (although, I have to admit, Hespera did have enough backbone to take Lucaspa on).

Remember what happened during Jesus' six [illegal] trials, just before He was crucified?

Luke 23:12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.

My pastor is not very well liked in our ministerial association here in town, and he couldn't care less.

But AV, your position doesn't even have proper biblical support. It's rejected by most of Christianity, and rightly so. It has no supporting evidence, not even in the bible. It ridicules Christ and takes attention from loving our neighbor and even our enemies. It also pushes people away from Christianity rather efficiently.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

The only one? no, but can you think of a better one?

This guy is persecuted and mocked considerably more than you are, so does that make him right?

Time Cube

 

[TheReasoner]

The only one? no, but can you think of a better one?

The Nazis are still persecuted. Is that a sign they are right?

Persecution for the sake of being bonkers is not a sign that one is not bonkers. Persecution for saying "Hey mr nazi, I think this jew deserves to live!" or "Hey mr. Hutu, this Tutsi is your neighbor and doesn't deserve to be chopped up by your machete" are both examples of what we're supposed to be willing to be persecuted for.

You're not saying any such thing though. You're not standing up for the poor, the weak or the immigrant. You're just hammering at a scientifically derived model which today is successfully employed in processes keeping millions alive. Food production, medication production, and the production of various inorganic and organic products across the board.

One could in fact argue that your position is anti the good of the weakest and the neediest as it directly attacks a branch of science which has and is continuing to help them.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

But AV, your position doesn't even have proper biblical support. It's rejected by most of Christianity, and rightly so. It has no supporting evidence, not even in the bible. It ridicules Christ and takes attention from loving our neighbor and even our enemies. It also pushes people away from Christianity rather efficiently.

Very true. I'm beginning to think AV is trying to cut down on the eventual population of the pearly gates.

 

[Upisoft]

That's your problem -- not mine.

That sounds like an old-old joke.

A drunkard says to a sober man: "Beware, a pink elephant is walking in your way and will smash you!"
The sober man looking around says: "I don't see it!"
The drunkard says: "That's your problem -- not mine."