Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[heymikey80]

Obviously we were, but thanks be to GOD for His Son, Whom I died to the law that I may live unto Him. I'm no longer bound by the curse of the law.

Then God is not punishing Christians equally with other sinners.

 

[ARBITER01]

The interpretation of "all" that would otherwise conclude everyone in Jerusalem repented and would therefore have been saved. The interpretation of "world" in 1 John 2:2 would otherwise conclude everyone in the world would therefore be saved.

It would take a view of "all" and "world" distinct from that so far proffered to conclude a consistent view of what the Scriptures are saying.

All your tinkering with scripture will do no good friend, as GOD is just and good,..

Rom 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to them that by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory and honour and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.

He passes out judgment equally as well as eternal life equally.

 

[ARBITER01]

Then God is not punishing Christians equally with other sinners.

Sorry, Christians are not sinners anymore. I'm no longer bound by sin and it's domination over me as the unsaved are.

That's part of that "died to the law" thing. I'm no longer under that curse.

 

[heymikey80]

All your tinkering with scripture will do no good friend, as GOD is just and good,..

Not an answer to any of the issues. If the only response of this view is to accuse other views of tinkering, I'd prefer such a label to a view that is clearly not holding up under the actual meaning of Scripture.

I just make sure that scripture is agreeing with scripture as I read it

Hm. Throughout history Scripture "as I read it" has been the excuse for a multitude of sins. I'm not the umpire over Scripture, rather Scripture is the umpire over me. I for one will make sure that theological meaning conforms with what the Apostles meant by what Scripture said.

He passes out judgment equally as well as eternal life equally.

Clearly not, and wonderfully for us, as some sinners don't receive tribulation and anguish.

 

[heymikey80]

Sorry, Christians are not sinners anymore. I'm no longer bound by sin and it's domination over me as the unsaved are.

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 1 Tim 1:15

That's part of that "died to the law" thing. I'm no longer under that curse.

Yes. The Christian is not treated with the same punishment. So God does treat people differently. that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. 2 Cor 5:19

 

[ARBITER01]

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 1 Tim 1:15

Yes. The Christian is not treated with the same punishment. So God does treat people differently.

Sorry, we are not sinners anymore. Paul considered himself to be the worst sinner because of his deeds against the church, but GOD had mercy on him and forgave him.

And GOD does not treat anyone differently,..

Rom 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to them that by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory and honour and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.

No matter how many loopholes you look for, the passage still stands. The only problem you have is your own understanding.

 

[heymikey80]

Sorry, we are not sinners anymore. Paul considered himself to be the worst sinner because of his deeds against the church, but GOD had mercy on him and forgave him.

And GOD does not treat anyone differently,..

If we claim we have no sin, we are only lying to ourselves and not living in the truth. 1 John 1:8

Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 1 Cor 6:18 Who is Paul talking to? In this view of "no more sin" how can he be talking to anyone in church?

Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger Ep 4:26 Who's Paul talking to?

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. Gal 6:1-3 Who's Paul talking about?

The problem of denying sinfulness while Apostles declare their own -- it doesn't appear for my position, so it's a clear advantage for my theology to recognize that all people are sinners, including Christians. As for what Scripture says about the denial of being a sinner, that's for the other side to deal with.

 

[heymikey80]

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth him, and the evil one toucheth him not.

Sinneth not (ouch hamartanei). Lineal present active indicative, “does not keep on sinning,”

If you are a born again Christian, you are no longer bound under the domination of sin, ie you do not have a propensity to sin all the time anymore.

Well, I appreciate the adoption of my view that the person is still a sinner, but has less of a reason and thus interest to sin.

Do the sinless sin?

 

[Hammster]

1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.
3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For God shows no partiality.

If we look at the context, it's amazing what we see. In the first chapter, Paul lays out the argument against the Gentiles as to their sun. But in case the Jews get a big head, he lays into them in chapter two. So when we get to verse 11, it's crystal clear that Paul is saying that God shows no partiality to the Jews. He doesn't respect them just because of their station.

Context, context, context.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, I appreciate the adoption of my view that the person is still a sinner, but has less of a reason and thus interest to sin.

I did not adopt your view at all, in fact I refuted it,..

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not;

Sinneth not (ouch hamartanei). Lineal present active indicative, “does not keep on sinning,”

A sinner is under the burden of sin, has a constant propensity to sin all the time. Christians are not sinners anymore since they are born again spiritually, and have The Holy Spirit within them now to guide their path.

Just like John said, if you are born of GOD, you no longer have a desire to keep on sinning, and the evil one toucheth him not.

 

[heymikey80]

I did not adopt your view at all, in fact I refuted it,..

OK, then I record the lack of recognition that what's being refuted is not my position.

A sinner is under the burden of sin, has a constant propensity to sin all the time. Christians are not sinners anymore since they are born again spiritually, and have The Holy Spirit within them now to guide their path.

... with no Scripture to back it up, this is quickly written off and is indeed opposed by the Scripture cited.

Sinners sin. The Scripture cited and interpreted shows that Christians sin. They're putting an end to sins as they continue on in their lives -- that's what the continuing sense means in Greek present tense. But that means they're continuing certain sins. Otherwise there'd be nothing to end. And in that case the verb tense would need to be different -- aorist or perfect.

Therefore Christians are sinners.

Just like John said, if you are born of GOD, you no longer have a desire to keep on sinning.

Needs citation. Because Peter says it's a struggle -- and that would indicate there are indeed conflicting desires:

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 1 Pt 2:11

And Paul is encouraging Christians to end the reign of sin the their mortal bodies, indicating -- they still sin. Otherwise his encouragement is a waste of parchment:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 6:12

The clear result: Christians do sin, they are sinning, they continue to sin. They're sinners.

 

[heymikey80]

Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

If you applied present tense continuing sense consistently it'd be obvious that this isn't saying what's being claimed for it.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6

Continuing sense is obvious when translated consistently. The point here is the process of ending sinning; it's not the fact that we're still sinning after a certain period of time in Christ.

Greek classes often make this quite clear. Often Greek classes are built on 1 John to introduce you to how basic Greek language works.

So I'd encourage anyone with issues on this interpretive matter: take a Greek class.

Better yet: get a copy of ESV. It has the present tenses translated in continuing sense. Then you'll have a great basis for understanding what John meant.

 

[twob4me]

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[Rightglory]

Heymikey80,

The interpretation of "all" that would otherwise conclude everyone in Jerusalem repented and would therefore have been saved. The interpretation of "world" in 1 John 2:2 would otherwise conclude everyone in the world would therefore be saved.

It would be true if the contexts were the same.

However, the former is first an hyperbollie and also is referencing a relational existance between Christ and men.

The second is referencing Christ's finished work on the Cross and it is ALL the world, literally, the Cosmos, and every single human being in that Cosmos. Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:22.

 

[ARBITER01]

If you applied present tense continuing sense consistently it'd be obvious that this isn't saying what's being claimed for it.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6

Continuing sense is obvious when translated consistently. The point here is the process of ending sinning; it's not the fact that we're still sinning after a certain period of time in Christ.

Greek classes often make this quite clear. Often Greek classes are built on 1 John to introduce you to how basic Greek language works.

So I'd encourage anyone with issues on this interpretive matter: take a Greek class.

Better yet: get a copy of ESV. It has the present tenses translated in continuing sense. Then you'll have a great basis for understanding what John meant.

Well maybe if you asked me, I would have broke it down better for you like I did the other, but you were on your own ideas about any sin as somehow denoting a Christian as a sinner.

Here is that segment of scripture broken down,..

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

Sinneth not (ouch hamartanei). Linear present (linear menōn, keeps on abiding) active indicative of hamartanō, “does not keep on sinning.”

Whosoever sinneth (ho hamartanōn). Present (linear) active articular participle like menōn above, “the one who keeps on sinning” (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as hamartēsas, aorist active participle, would mean).

Hath not seen him (ouch heōraken auton). Perfect active indicative of horaō. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnōken, perfect active also) of Christ.

This goes against your idea that any sin automatically proves a Christian to be a sinner. That was never the understanding provided in the scriptures. It's the "habitual sin" or domination under sin which denotes a person as a sinner.

And no, I don't need the esv, I have a module on my e-sword already, and it pales in comparison to other translations.

 

[heymikey80]

This goes against your idea that any sin automatically proves a Christian to be a sinner. That was never the understanding provided in the scriptures. It's the "habitual sin" or domination under sin which denotes a person as a sinner.

John doesn't even mention the word "sinner" here. So this is an unsupported conclusion. The fact is, Christians are still sinful -- thus still sinners.

Sinners sin. The sinful sin. The sinless don't sin. Christians sin.

Peter says it's a struggle -- and that would indicate there are indeed conflicting desires:

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 1 Pt 2:11

And Paul is encouraging Christians to end the reign of sin the their mortal bodies, indicating -- they still sin. Otherwise his encouragement is a waste of parchment:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 6:12

The clear result: Christians do sin, they are sinning, they continue to sin. They're sinners.

So putting an end to sins is still a struggle for Christians.

Come to think of it, the point that "whole world" hasn't been answered, either (that it would conclude in universalism) -- it's just been denied by you (in the face of applying the same argument elsewhere). And the point about "all" hasn't been answered either. It doesn't appear this view is being supported by actual reasoning. More like jumping from subject to subject without answering to the issues, and then accusing the opposition of not being Christian.

It's not much of a support for a position.

 

[ARBITER01]

John doesn't even mention the word "sinner" here. So this is an unsupported conclusion. The fact is, Christians are still sinful -- thus still sinners.

Sinners sin. The sinful sin. The sinless don't sin. Christians sin.

Peter says it's a struggle -- and that would indicate there are indeed conflicting desires:

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 1 Pt 2:11

And Paul is encouraging Christians to end the reign of sin the their mortal bodies, indicating -- they still sin. Otherwise his encouragement is a waste of parchment:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 6:12

The clear result: Christians do sin, they are sinning, they continue to sin. They're sinners.

So putting an end to sins is still a struggle for Christians.

Sorry the Greek is particular here,..

“the one who keeps on sinning”

A person who sins habitually has not seen GOD.

"does not keep on sinning"

That is the Christian who abides with Christ.

Again, the Greek is particular here, and it does not support your personal conclusions of what a sinner is.

 

[heymikey80]

Sorry the Greek is particular here,..

“the one who keeps on sinning”

A person who sins habitually has not seen GOD.

"does not keep on sinning"

That is the Christian who abides with Christ.

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

It's clear that John knows Christians sin. Otherwise he wouldn't have written 1 John, according to him. And it's pointless to pit John at chapter 2 against John at chapter 3. They're the same guy.

And so the Greek is not at all comprehensive. But in fact it is particular, and I'm glad you agree with me here. The Greek is talking about the Christian putting away with particular sins. There's no "all" here.

I'll stick with being consistent with all of John instead of trying to pit 1 John 3 against 1 John 2.

 

[ARBITER01]

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

It's clear that John knows Christians sin. Otherwise he wouldn't have written 1 John, according to him. And it's pointless to pit John at chapter 2 against John at chapter 3. They're the same guy.

And so the Greek is not at all comprehensive. But in fact it is particular, and I'm glad you agree with me here. The Greek is talking about the Christian putting away with particular sins. There's no "all" here.

I'll stick with being consistent with all of John instead of trying to pit 1 John 3 against 1 John 2.

Finally we are at a point now,..

If you look back through my posts on this particular venture of ours, you will see that I never said a Christian doesn't sin.

- Never said it.

- That's because I know we can possibly sin as a Christian.

The issue here between you and I was your definition of a sinner. By the Greek over in John, a person who sins habitually does not know Christ, hence that is a sinner. This is because they are dominated by the burden of sin in their lives, and they have no way out of it, they can't stop themselves.

But a Christian who trips up and is tempted by his flesh or the enemy into sin, is not a sinner. They are not reveling in it or seeking it, they made a mistake and seek forgiveness. A true born again Christian does not actively search out sin like an unbeliever does, hence they are not a sinner.

Anyways, this subject is getting old, and if you are still unconvinced and wish to continue in your personal understanding of this topic, I don't care now.

 

[heymikey80]

Such a distinction without a difference has missed the point of bringing up that Christians the same as all sinful people, would deserve punishment for our sins just as they. Being now sorry for my sin and seeking to stop it would not seem any different, if God's judgment is upon people for the sins they have done (as Rom 2 states).

The judgment of Christians is thus not the same as that on others. We aren't held responsible for those sins we are indeed responsible for, otherwise.