Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[heymikey80]

Sorry, GOD is no respecter of persons, and certainly no bigot, He doesn't single out people to not receive salvation. They can choose to not want Him and refuse what He offers, but He would be unjust to offer it to only segments of the population and refuse others.

So in this view God is actually respecting a person's rejection of Him, and condemning him. Is God then a respecter of this person?

It's quite clear God does not offer His salvation to everyone, when He could. There're billions of people who've died without hearing the Gospel. And of course given God's ability to transport people wherever He wishes, even if it took preachers, God could send preachers. So a response would be necessary as to this situation. It seems apparent "He would be unjust" from this viewpoint, but this is an actual case. So the viewpoint would be inconsistent, and fall of its own weight: God is not unjust, so the assumptions of this viewpoint must be changed.

Calvinists don't object to the offer being generally to people regardless of how humans view outward appearance. Once again, that's a general use of the term "all". But it disregards God's word to say that God doesn't separate people one from another as objects of His salvation and wrath, or mercy and hardening. He does. He will. "Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Mt 25:32 "You wicked and slothful servant!" Mt 25:26 And ... "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. ... he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Rom 9:16,18

 

[RobertZ]

Election is a glorious thing when one truly understands it for what it is. If it were not for Gods electing grace no one would be saved! That is why it is so beautiful to those whom have been redeemed!

Before I understood Election I too was greatly offended by it and for anyone else who has yet to come to grips with it I can understand why you are offended by it as well because it completely strips man of all his pride and all that he is and causes him to see no good within himself, it causes him to fall on his face before the only one who can truly redeem him and to cry out for mercy before the one who can save him!

 

[simonpeter]

Man is conceived in sin and hence incapable of 'choosing' God. So the only option is to admit that God chooses us. As to whether he chooses all, well, if he does, then everybody would find themselves in the right circumstances, circumstances that favor a spiritual life.

Evidently, that's not the case, and in fact most of them are in situations (as in Afghanistan) where even hearing the gospel would be near impossible. So why would God do that if he had chosen all of them to be saved?

 

[cygnusx1]

No this is what he said,..



He is stating that GOD is purposely denying salvation to individuals, as in, GOD is refusing to offer it to them at all.

That is his assertion here, and his doctrine is wrong.

ahhh now you are moving ground , gone is the simple concept that none are excluded from salvation (Universalism) now it is a more refined answer , "none are excluded from the Gospel Offer" .......


BUT , that is untrue too !

look , if all you mean to say is that the Gospel Offer goes out to all indiscriminately then no one here is going to differ from you (I think) .

But if you mean none are excluded from hearing the Gospel offer , then I have to say baloaney , and I do believe in the Gospel Invitation/Offer/proclamation but all mankind have not heard about Jesus and those that do , hear it in a diffused way , often a false Christ is proclaimed and salvation is not even understood because false Gospels and false Christs abound.

Truth is , both the elect and the reprobate hear the Gospel , but only the elect have ears to hear , the rest remain headstrong even under signs and miracles.

 

[cygnusx1]

When he isn't able to respond (either out of ignorance or because he sees where his view will lead) he'll give some excuse like this is just milk and he's beyond that, or he'll say you are mean in the way you stated something. I seriously doubt he's thought through these issues with any depth.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

Hi bro , well I have to admit something here and now ;

I have maintained the difficult stand between Moderate and High Calvinist for over ten years now (High calvinism often worries me) but even though I still maintain the Gospel is good news to all , that God has a benevolent attitude to sinners hearing the Gospel , and that there is a proclamation an invitation and a urgency in God's Spirit in warning men of the day of judgement .... this one text still blows me away , I mean come on would you preach like this ?

"Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you," Acts 13:41.


yet Paul has no problem .... behold and Perish !!!!

stunning . not even behold and repent , but behold and perish .

I feel I can see much more of the High Calvinists views and less of the moderate Calvinists (Arminians aren't even in the ball park) view when such a text hits me , like reading it for the first time .

we really ought to go back and proclaim many texts more often that we take for granted .

God Bless

Cyg

 

[ARBITER01]

All this focus on "all" without recognizing all the facts allways obscures the meaning of the word.

The word is used generally, talking about a grouping as a whole.

And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 1:4-5

Under the comprehensive definition of "all", the Gospel of Mark should've stopped there. Every person in Jerusalem repented and was saved.

There's no change to the answer when the verses brought out are actually consistent with the answer.

"The world" doesn't mean every single item within the world. That's awfully clear given the Scriptures on ... the Judgment: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Mt 25:46 So clearly not every person in the world will be saved. And so clearly "world" doesn't mean every person in the world, because Jesus came to save the world.

BTW, is "nice try" more than a rhetorical statement intended to goad the prior poster? No matter who's posting, "he one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." Pr 18:17

You have a whole heap of words here, but all still means all on those sections of scripture I presented.

 

[Rick Otto]

If Jesus was trying to save everybody, He wouldn't have used parables.

 

[Rick Otto]

You have a whole heap of words here, but all still means all on those sections of scripture I presented.

No disputes that all means all.
All of what is the definitive question, & you illustrate no knowlege of idiom.
"The world" was a common expression used to describe gentiles and any the rest of mankind that didn't include Israelis because "as everyone knew", "salvation is of the Jews".

 

[ARBITER01]

ahhh now you are moving ground , gone is the simple concept that none are excluded from salvation (Universalism) now it is a more refined answer , "none are excluded from the Gospel Offer" .......


BUT , that is untrue too !

look , if all you mean to say is that the Gospel Offer goes out to all indiscriminately then no one here is going to differ from you (I think) .

But if you mean none are excluded from hearing the Gospel offer , then I have to say baloaney , and I do believe in the Gospel Invitation/Offer/proclamation but all mankind have not heard about Jesus and those that do , hear it in a diffused way , often a false Christ is proclaimed and salvation is not even understood because false Gospels and false Christs abound.

Truth is , both the elect and the reprobate hear the Gospel , but only the elect have ears to hear , the rest remain headstrong even under signs and miracles.

Sorry, that is a very discriminated view of scripture, and I'm not even liberal.

Just one section of scripture presented here,..

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you–ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Spells it out for all. Now whether all will receive it, or even all have it preached to them, it is still offered to all, as the scripture says.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sorry, that is a very discriminated view of scripture, and I'm not even liberal.

Just one section of scripture presented here,..

Spells it out for all. Now whether all will receive it, or even all have it all preached to them, it is still offered to all, as the scripture says.

The verse right in front of it tells us WHO "all" Peter is referring to:
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us, ARBITER)should perish, but that all (of us, ARBITER)should come to repentance.

Brother, don't let your love for humanity fog your reading glasses.

 

[ARBITER01]

No disputes that all means all.
All of what is the definitive question, & you illustrate no knowlege of idiom.
"The world" was a common expression used to describe gentiles and any the rest of mankind that didn't include Israelis because "as everyone knew", "salvation is of the Jews".

And it seems you are demonstrating a slight false assertion here my friend. GOD initially offered the salvation to the Jews, but they rejected His Son and GOD turned to the gentiles, but that doesn't mean no Jew will ever be saved as we have had many Jewish people become saved since the cross. In fact, all of the apostles were Jews that were saved at Pentecost, and more afterwards.

 

[ARBITER01]

The verse right in front of it tells us WHO "all" Peter is referring to:
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us, ARBITER)should perish, but that all (of us, ARBITER)should come to repentance.

Brother, don't let your love for humanity fog your reading glasses.

Sorry friend, repentance is offered to those that require it, ie the unsaved. Adding those words in there skewers the meaning.

And I'm no huge fan of mankind and their issues at all, I just don't agree with folks attributing aspects of mankinds inherent faults to a perfect divine being, ie GOD is no respecter of persons, so people need to stop trying to make Him out to be a bigot towards mankind.

 

[Rick Otto]

And it seems you are demonstrating a slight false assertion here my friend. GOD initially offered the salvation to the Jews, but they rejected His Son and GOD turned to the gentiles, but that doesn't mean no Jew will ever be saved as we have had many Jewish people become saved since the cross. In fact, all of the apostles were Jews that were saved at Pentecost, and more afterwards.

It is no false assertion to say God initialy offered salvation to the Jews, but it would be an egregious oversimplification because what He gave them was the law that no mere human being could fulfill.
No one here is asserting no Jew will ever be saved.

We are asserting what Eph1:4 states, that only those whom God chose to place "in Christ" are given saving grace that invariably produces saving faith & attending good works. Not all who were in Adam (all mankind) were placed in Christ so as to be on the cross with Him in that sense.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sorry friend, repentance is offered to those that require it, ie the unsaved. Adding those words in there skewers the meaning.

And I'm no huge fan of mankind and their issues at all, I just don't agree with folks attributing aspects of mankinds inherent faults to a perfect divine being, ie GOD is no respecter of persons, so people need to stop trying to make Him out to be a bigot towards mankind.

We don't add words that say God respects only those He foresaw choosing Him in the future. We know from the same passage in Ephesians that He planned everything BEFORE He created, so there was no "looking into a future" to see what He had ALREADY PLANNED. His forknowelege isn't from foresight, it is from "determinate council".

How could He be bigoted toward what He Himself created?

 

[ARBITER01]

It is no false assertion to say God initialy offered salvation to the Jews, but it would be an egregious oversimplification because what He gave them was the law that no mere human being could fulfill.
No one here is asserting no Jew will ever be saved.

We are asserting what Eph1:4 states, that only those whom God chose to place "in Christ" are given saving grace that invariably produces saving faith & attending good works. Not all who were in Adam (all mankind) were placed in Christ so as to be on the cross with Him in that sense.

And your assertion is wrong my friend, as Eph 1:4 says no such thing in the Greek,..

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

That's the revised version off of the earliest texts, and there is no hint of discrimination from GOD amongst mankind.

He didn't choose me over you or favor you over me. The text is clear,..

Rom 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to them that by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory and honour and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.

GOD will deal out punishment equally, as well as grant eternal life equally.

 

[ARBITER01]

We don't add words that say God respects only those He foresaw choosing Him in the future. We know from the same passage in Ephesians that He planned everything BEFORE He created, so there was no "looking into a future" to see what He had ALREADY PLANNED. His forknowelege isn't from foresight, it is from "determinate council".

How could He be bigoted toward what He Himself created?

He foreknew who would choose Him, but He didn't plan to choose only certain ones.

 

[heymikey80]

You have a whole heap of words here, but all still means all on those sections of scripture I presented.

That heap of words reduces to, "all" doesn't mean what universalists want it to mean in those individual verses of Scripture you presented. The context shows that "all" and "world" don't mean each and every person.

 

[heymikey80]

GOD will deal out punishment equally, as well as grant eternal life equally.

Then everyone's sunk. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Rom 2:13

 

[heymikey80]

Sorry, I'm no universalist as many people will go to hell for their deeds.

The interpretation of "all" that would otherwise conclude everyone in Jerusalem repented and would therefore have been saved. The interpretation of "world" in 1 John 2:2 would otherwise conclude everyone in the world would therefore be saved.

It would take a view of "all" and "world" distinct from that so far proffered to conclude a consistent view of what the Scriptures are saying.

 

[ARBITER01]

Then everyone's sunk. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Rom 2:13

Obviously we were, but thanks be to GOD for His Son, Whom I died to the law that I may live unto Him. I'm no longer bound by the curse of the law.