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Bible-Creation-Evolution

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Assyrian

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The spiritual death is real but the death is a metaphor? :scratch:
Spiritual death describes something very real, but uses a metaphor to describe it.

As AV indicated, spiritual death is more real than the physical.

When Jesus came into the ruler's house...He said to them, "Make room, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping."...He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose. - Matt 9:23-25.
According to the only medical expert among the bible writers Luke the doctor, she really was dead. Luke 8:52 And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, "Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping." 53 And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. Was Luke wrong or was Jesus not being literal again?

Physical death is a temporary form of "sleep" from which we will arise. Spiritual death is eternal.
Just because God's power is greater than death, doesn't make physical death any less real. Eccles 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? When you die your body is as dead as the pet dog you had when you were a child.

The bread is a metaphor, the dying is real.
In addition, the eating of the bread is used as a metaphor representing a real person in whom we put our trust, Jesus.
Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life." - John 6:35.
The dying is real, it is just not real death the same as Jesus isn't literally real bread. Why do you think Jesus can be described using physical bread as a metaphor, but what he saves us from can't be described using physical death as a metaphor?
 
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AV1611VET

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The dying is real, it is just not real death the same as Jesus isn't literally real bread. Why do you think Jesus can be described using physical bread as a metaphor, but what he saves us from can't be described using physical death as a metaphor?
You're not making sense, Assyrian.

In essence, you're asking, why isn't Wonder Bread the same thing as Jesus Christ?

As the saying goes: A person in Hell was born once, but died twice; whereas a person in Heaven was born twice, but died once.

Spiritual death is literal death -- physical death is literal death.
 
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Assyrian

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Nathan Poe said:
Men actually aren't missing any ribs -- that's just a myth. ...
Get informed.
Nathan is actually well informed. If you read the article it points out the very myth Nathan referred to
Surprisingly, some Christians have grown up believing that men have one less rib than women. They have the same number, of course.​
Carl Wieland knows about this belief and knows it is a myth, so does Nathan.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nathan is actually well informed. If you read the article it points out the very myth Nathan referred to
Surprisingly, some Christians have grown up believing that men have one less rib than women. They have the same number, of course.​
Carl Wieland knows about this belief and knows it is a myth, so does Nathan.
And if God made Adam with 13 ribs and Eve with 11?
 
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Assyrian

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You're not making sense, Assyrian.

In essence, you're asking, why isn't Wonder Bread the same thing as Jesus Christ?
Why would I ask that?

As the saying goes: A person in Hell was born once, but died twice; whereas a person in Heaven was born twice, but died once.

Spiritual death is literal death -- physical death is literal death.
Unless spiritual death is using physical death as a metaphor to tell us about what happens when we sin and are cut off from God.
 
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AV1611VET

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Unless spiritual death is using physical death as a metaphor to tell us about what happens when we sin and are cut off from God.
Do you believe we are body, soul and spirit? if not, let's just end this conversation right here, eh?

I'll even keep quiet, like I did with gaara, if you claim a victory.

We need to get off this merry-go-round.
 
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TheReasoner

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You're not making sense, Assyrian.

In essence, you're asking, why isn't Wonder Bread the same thing as Jesus Christ?

As the saying goes: A person in Hell was born once, but died twice; whereas a person in Heaven was born twice, but died once.

Spiritual death is literal death -- physical death is literal death.

Aha! So the same word, death can have two literal meanings. Spiritual and physical. And how does one distinguish between the two? By logical reasoning involving context, one's surroundings and so on. For example we know that if the death "killed" was really killed then it was a spiritual death as we still die physically.

Some people believe that there was no physical death before the fall. Reasoning that a loving God cannot let physical suffering and death befall any sinless creation. And that the death Adam and Eve were told they would die was a physical one. Following this it is said that Jesus also defeated physical death. Which is contrary to any half-brained observation of reality around us. Show me one person who has survived life itself physically since Jesus' death up until now. It is also contrary to the new testament which shows us that the apostles honored God with their deaths and torture at the hands of unbelievers. They were not granted freedom from that.

Some people choose to read the bible to say the world is flat:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

and more verses to the same effect point their way, and they claim they read the bible infallibly and as God's word was intended to be read.

Are they right? Of course not. It's pure nonsense.

So I am asking you and your fellow creationists: When so many read the bible to mean different things - and you all claim absolute certainty, yet every group can be independently verified to be wrong, that is to say the earth is NOT flat. It is NOT placed on pillars, and the sun does NOT orbit the earth. Furthermore we know that people DO die, so the physical death interpretation is simply bonkers too. Given all of this, why do you claim YOU are infallible? What sets you apart from all these other groups?
I've asked before but I cannot see that I have been given a half decent answer.
CAN you answer me?
 
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AV1611VET

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Aha! So the same word, death can have two literal meanings.
Death simply means 'cessation'.

Spiritual death = cessation of the spirit.
Physical death = cessation of the body.
Death of an idea = cessation of the idea.

Death needs to have an object, else the understanding is lost.

(This conversation is way past its prime -- and dying.)
 
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TheReasoner

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Death simply means 'cessation'.

Spiritual death = cessation of the spirit.
Physical death = cessation of the body.
Death of an idea = cessation of the idea.

Death needs to have an object, else the understanding is lost.

Quite. But this still leaves room for interpretation mistakes. A person can still die in two different ways, and which one talks about is not always obvious. It is certainly not a topic where certainty is as easily obtained as with a math equation. And my post stands. I still await a decent answer. Why are creationists special? What makes them infallible?
 
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AV1611VET

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Quite. But this still leaves room for interpretation mistakes.
As Assyrian demonstrates.
A person can still die in two different ways, and which one talks about is not always obvious.
First of all, it wasn't 'talked about' -- leaving the reader to extrapolate it from the context, which comes immediately afterwards.

Not only did Eve not die physically 'in the day she ate thereof', she was told she was going to have children.

So I have to ask: 'Not always obvious' to whom? you and Assyrian?
It is certainly not a topic where certainty is as easily obtained as with a math equation.
Then why is it that even children can understand it?

By the way: did you happen to notice that it is not recorded that Adam and Eve even questioned physically dying that day?

For example, Eve didn't say, "What do you mean I'm going to have children? I've got until sundown to live, don't I?"
And my post stands. I still await a decent answer. Why is creationism special?
And for about the 4th or 5th time -- creation supplies the hardware, science supplies the software.
 
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1611AV

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Aha! So the same word, death can have two literal meanings. Spiritual and physical. And how does one distinguish between the two?
They are both literal.

Some people choose to read the bible to say the world is flat:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”
None of these verses suggest the earth is flat. fixed and immovable yes, but not flat.

and more verses to the same effect point their way, and they claim they read the bible infallibly and as God's word was intended to be read.

Are they right? Of course not. It's pure nonsense.
Because you say so.

So I am asking you and your fellow creationists: When so many read the bible to mean different things - and you all claim absolute certainty, yet every group can be independently verified to be wrong, that is to say the earth is NOT flat. It is NOT placed on pillars, and the sun does NOT orbit the earth. Furthermore we know that people DO die, so the physical death interpretation is simply bonkers too. Given all of this, why do you claim YOU are infallible? What sets you apart from all these other groups?
I've asked before but I cannot see that I have been given a half decent answer.
Because we have no preconceived belief. We simply take God at his word.


CAN you answer me?
Yes, we have no preconceived belief. We simply take God at his word.
 
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TheReasoner

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They are both literal.

You don't get it I suppose.
Both meanings can be valid. We can say Joe died for example and it is probably a physical death we're talking about. But if we say "Joe will die if..." it can mean both physical and/or spiritual death. There are instances where one cannot be certain about it.

None of these verses suggest the earth is flat. fixed and immovable yes, but not flat.

Because you say so.
So, the earth is immobile, placed on pillars and it has a hard hammered mirror as a firmament above it upon which God walks? (Read Job for that last one)

And you say they do not say the earth is flat. Flat earth believers say otherwise. Just as most Christians would disagree with your lso-called literal interpretation of Genesis. Who's right, and by what standard? You cannot claim to simply "be taking God at His word" because that presupposes that your ability to interpret the bible is infallible. Which in turn necessitates your own infallibility. Which is false. You're not God.

The bible says so. Check it out. Are you dismissing that? Because if you do, then you're not reading the bible literally and your following statement becomes a lie in every form and sense:

Because we have no preconceived belief. We simply take God at his word.

No, you don't. You take yourselves at your word. Had you taken God at His you'd be believing what His creation said, and accepted that as fallible creatures you've followed in your ancestor's footsteps and made a mistake instead of holding fast to some interpretation that is neither universally accepted as a literal interpretation nor one that makes sense when God's own creation is considered.

EVERYONE has preconceptions. Culturally induced ideas, hopes, beliefs, and other biases that affect everything we do. It's part of being human.

You claim you're taking God on His word. I say the same thing. You disregard all creation says to satisfy an arbitrary interpretation. I have chosen to believe that your interpretation is incorrect as it does not reflect what we can learn from God's creation and is in fact, if we do believe God to be honest and truthful, falsified in the lab.

Yes, we have no preconceived belief. We simply take God at his word.

No, you don't. You disregard His word. You disregard His command to be humble. You disregard His creation. All to satisfy your adherence to one interpretation which you have no guarantee is correct. In fact it presupposes that God is lying to us through His creation. You say the earth is young, I suppose, which means all we see in the night sky is wrong. Our observations of the geology of this planet is wrong. Our physics are wrong. Chemistry. Biology. Everything - even though it is tested and has given us many technologies and products which could never have worked as they do in the universe you describe. So riddle me this; If God is honest and true, and man fallible and fallen, which is more likely to be true? A world which satisfies you, or a world which honestly portrays it's maker without deceit and lies?

You say you have no preconceptions, well, so do geocentrists claim. Are they right? Are all of our observations that say the earth orbits the sun wrong just because they believe the earth is immobile?

You say you take God at His word. Okay. You probably believe that you do. But it is nonsensical to think you can be certain you have understood it correctly when so many millions of others before you and even contemporaries of you are wrong when they say the exact same thing but with different interpretations.

The bottom line is you can't say you're right because you're right like you have been doing. That's circular reasoning and it is... Extremely poor logic. It does not hold water - at all.

I ask again: Why do you assume infallibility?







Your literal interpretations require you to:
Have perfect understanding of all underlying factors including culture, language, intended message.
It requires you to be perfectly objective while reading it. Uninfluenced by anyone and anything.
It requires you yourself to be able to apply aforementioned perfect knowledge and skills perfectly.

Can you as a human do either of these things? No.
 
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AV1611VET

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So, the earth is immobile, placed on pillars and it has a hard hammered mirror as a firmament above it upon which God walks? (Read Job for that last one)
Ya -- and we're supposed to be:

1 Corinthians 15:58 ¶ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


How can we be both 'unmoveable' and 'always abounding in the work of the Lord' at the same time?

Context, context, context -- as my pastor says.
 
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TheReasoner

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Ya -- and we're supposed to be:

1 Corinthians 15:58 ¶ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


How can we be both 'unmoveable' and 'always abounding in the work of the Lord' at the same time?

Context, context, context -- as my pastor says.

Right. So since you're literal and don't care much for Genesis' context apparently - since you read it like you do?
And what about the context when the firmament is concerned? It's not without reason the catholic church at one point considered anyone saying anything else to be heretics and blasphemers you know.

Why do you suppose you're infallible?
 
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1611AV

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Right. So since you're literal and don't care much for Genesis' context apparently - since you read it like you do?
And what about the context when the firmament is concerned? It's not without reason the catholic church at one point considered anyone saying anything else to be heretics and blasphemers you know.

Why do you suppose you're infallible?

Its not about taking each word literal without reading the next. It is to be taken literal as a whole. If you take the first word in the Bible literally by itself "In" can mean In the end. But when read in context we both know "In" means the time of the beginning.

It does not mean literally being inside the beginning. Like I'm in the house.
 
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AV1611VET

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If God had made Adam with 19 ribs and Eve with 5?

What's your point, AV? That Adam and Eve weren't the first humans because they weren't human?
Are you following the conversation?

When God took one of Adam's ribs and made Eve, they both then had 12.

Thus both male and female have 12.

Another Genesis pwning of evolution, I might add.

(I can't remember the name of that theory that says if you cut a mouse's tail off, his offspring will be tailess.)
 
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Tiberius

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Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

What about that bit? He was getting the earth to bring them forth, not his voice!

And of Eve???

Same for her.

See in order to believe in evolution, one must discount the Word of God. If a Christian is blinded to the abomination of that, then God help them...

No, one just needs a different interpretation than you.

What if the whole Bible was metaphor??? How does one become a Christian? Based on what scripture, the ones he believes to be non-metaphoric? Do you really not see the issue here? Or we Saved by interpretation?

Given that God's own work tells us something different than a literal interpretation of the Bible, doesn't it imply that the creation account in genesis is metaphorical? Also the differences between chapter 1 and chapter 2?

And I also second what Wiccan Child said - some parts of the Bible are clearly intended as metaphor. Clearly teh fact that the myth about males missing a rib is wrong, so that speaks of the creation story being a metaphor.

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.(Romans 3:4)

You are calling yourself a liar in an effort to be more convincing?

Yes, we have no preconceived belief. We simply take God at his word.

In other words, you have a preconceived belief that the entire Bible is a literal account.
 
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