Never heard one Christian answer this successfully...

[mulimulix]

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

 

[laconicstudent]

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

Why would that question make one's head explode?

 

[mulimulix]

Why would that question make one's head explode?

Well can you explain then how there is free will in heaven if there is no evil in heaven?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, bro.

There is indeed free will in Heaven. Many Christians read the Bible and tradition to conclude that Satan himself and his forces were once angels, who chose to rebell against God, and were cast out of Heaven as a consequence.

God also isn't going to compell us to enter a place we don't want to go, or refuse to enter. There is no evil in Heaven, as those who have chosen to reject God have already left, as it were. Those who enter enter by God's Son, willingly, and gladly.

 

[laconicstudent]

Well can you explain then how there is free will in heaven if there is no evil in heaven?

"For since man is the work of God, Who through His goodness brought this creature into being, no one could reasonably suspect that he, of whose constitution goodness is the cause, was created by his Maker in the midst of evil. But there is another reason for our present circumstances being what they are, and for our being destitute of the primitive surroundings: and yet again the starting-point of our answer to this argument against us is not beyond and outside the assent of our opponents. For He who made man for the participation of His own peculiar good, and incorporated in him the instincts for all that was excellent, in order that his desire might be carried forward by a corresponding movement in each case to its like, would never have deprived him of that most excellent and precious of all goods; I mean the gift implied in being his own master, and having a free will. For if necessity in any way was the master of the life of man, the “image” would have been falsified in that particular part, by being estranged owing to this unlikeness to its archetype. How can that nature which is under a yoke and bondage to any kind of necessity be called an image of a Master Being? Was it not, then, most right that that which is in every detail made like the Divine should possess in its nature a self-ruling and independent principle, such as to enable the participation of good to be the reward of its virtue? Whence, then, comes it, you will ask, that he who had been distinguished throughout with most excellent endowments exchanged these good things for the worse? The reason of this also is plain. No growth of evil had its beginning in the Divine will. Vice would have been blameless were it inscribed with the name of God as its maker and father. But the evil is, in some way or other, engendered from within, springing up in the will at that moment when there is a retrocession of the soul from the beautiful. For as sight is an activity of nature, and blindness a deprivation of that natural operation, such is the kind of opposition between virtue and vice. It is, in fact, not possible to form any other notion of the origin of vice than as the absence of virtue. For as when the light has been removed the darkness supervenes, but as long as it is present there is no darkness, so, as long as the good is present in the nature, vice is a thing that has no inherent existence; while the departure of the better state becomes the origin of its opposite. Since then, this is the peculiarity of the possession of a free will, that it chooses as it likes the thing that pleases it, you will find that it is not God Who is the author of the present evils, seeing that He has ordered your nature so as to be its own master and free; but rather the recklessness that makes choice of the worse in preference to the better."

--St. Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, V.

 

[ebia]

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

Children make mistakes. As they grow up, if they are carefully guided, they can gradually learn to make fewer and fewer; to develop virtues.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Children make mistakes. As they grow up, if they are carefully guided, they can gradually learn to make fewer and fewer; to develop virtues.

And to that I would follow up with that we are essentially immature adolescents, in Christ there is a mature, grown up humanity which we are being conformed to and will arrive at in the Age to Come.

In Christ we are being raised up into mature, responsible adults. Or, as St. Paul puts it,

"When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known." - 1 Corinthians 13:11-12

We're children: we talk like children, act like children, think like children and reason like children. We need to grow up.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Emmy]

Dear mulimulix. Is there free will in Heaven? When Adam ignored God`s loving advice: " Not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge," he and Eve, and all humanity after, had to live on Earth. We have to learn to say NO to temptation. After much time Jesus came and told us the two Commandments, on which hang all the Law and the Prophets: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as ourselves. We are given much time to learn to love like this, Jesus will give us His Love and Joy to share with each other, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love. Jesus told us to " ask and receive." He also taught us to pray" our Father forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us." When we are in Heaven, we will have learned to love God with all our being, and to love each other as we love ourselves. The answer to your question, mulimulix, " Yes there,, will be free will in Heaven, and we will all be as loving as God wants us to be." We might even be perfect. I say this with love, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. In Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40, Jesus tells a Lawer which is the first and great Commandment. It is Love every time, freely given and no condition asked.

 

[talitha]

IMHO the present reality we experience is sort of an isolated environment created by God to give us the freedom to choose Him without seeing or experiencing the fullness of reality. Sort of like a "matrix" - if you have seen the movie. If our eyes were opened to spiritual reality, we would definitely worship Him. We all would, just as the angels do. But we don't see, not all of us, and not all the time. In our present reality, the freedom to choose is in a sense amplified because of our blindness. In Heaven, there is still freedom to choose (or Lucifer wouldn't have fallen), but the likelihood of our choosing evil/death/separation-from-God is much less, because we can see and experience who God is. As Christians, the more we experience the presence of God, the less likely it is that we would choose anything else, because it becomes obvious that He is real and powerful and good.
blessings
tal

 

[food4thought]

Talitha comes closest to fully answering your question IMO.
When Adam chose to disobey God his very nature changed as a result, and he forever after (and every one of his descendants, including all of us) had a nature which would desire sinful things. We have a desire to do evil because we have a fallen nature. After the resurection believers will be given a new body which is not captive to the same sinful desires that tempt us away from God. Also, our souls will be fully healed from these sinful desires.

In short, we will have the ability to choose in heaven, but have ZERO desire to choose evil.

I personally believe that at least part of the reason the current world is allowed to be so horrible at times is so that we as redeemed believers will forever understand the true horror and cosequence of sin, thus ensuring that none of us will ever choose to sin through all eternity.

 

[GadFly]

Who ever said God is finished in making man in his image? It is too early in creation to ask your question. Nobody's head is about to explode but maybe the OP's head (a joke). God has plenty of time to eliminate the evil or sin in mankind as sin or evil should be simply meaning "not have arrived at the goal of creation. God has sent his trump card in Jesus Christ to point us towards a perfect creation. The OP's question poses no particular problem when we frame the situation and process of creation in God's perspective and plan!

 

[aiki]

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

I don't think of free will as being able to choose x or y with equal ease at all times. As some have already pointed out, we all engage in will-setting moments which serve to establish us in a particular course of thought and behaviour. These are moments which move us toward making that same choice again and again. At a will-setting moment we have genuine freedom to choose x or y, but once having made a choice, the freedom to choose differently in the future diminishes.

I don't think when we speak of free will, we ought to mean perfect freedom to choose at all times because this is clearly not how our will works. A gossip who has chosen to gossip all her life is, at the end of her life, deeply set in her gossiping. It becomes a habit with tremendous force to compel her. At some point, her gossiping becomes a reflexive, unconscious thing, that she, through her own free choice, has allowed to grip her with the power of necessity. And this is true of our choices to obey God, too. Our choice to submit to and serve God establishes us in a course that, over time, becomes profoundly deep and powerful and ultimately irreversible.

Couple what I've explained above with the incredible power of God to draw us and convict us and keep us and the "risk" of free will in heaven becomes rather moot.

Selah.

 

[GadFly]

I don't think of free will as being able to choose x or y with equal ease at all times. As some have already pointed out, we all engage in will-setting moments which serve to establish us in a particular course of thought and behaviour. These are moments which move us toward making that same choice again and again. At a will-setting moment we have genuine freedom to choose x or y, but once having made a choice, the freedom to choose differently in the future diminishes.

I don't think when we speak of free will, we ought to mean perfect freedom to choose at all times because this is clearly not how our will works. A gossip who has chosen to gossip all her life is, at the end of her life, deeply set in her gossiping. It becomes a habit with tremendous force to compel her. At some point, her gossiping becomes a reflexive, unconscious thing, that she, through her own free choice, has allowed to grip her with the power of necessity. And this is true of our choices to obey God, too. Our choice to submit to and serve God establishes us in a course that, over time, becomes profoundly deep and powerful and ultimately irreversible.

Couple what I've explained above with the incredible power of God to draw us and convict us and keep us and the "risk" of free will in heaven becomes rather moot.

Selah.

It's simpler than that IMO. what you say makes sense but we object to you framing the gossip as a her. In my churches both males and females were equally guilty of gossip.

also, it is apparent that God gave angels free will or else they could not have rebelled. Before creation of man is finished, God has chosen to give man the power to bring his will into submission to God's plan. To be a perminant citizen of the kingdom, although one has free will, he must through the Holy Spirit, yield all his members of the flesh to God. That is called sanctification, necessary for the final trip.ytMy old Methodist doctrine is showing here.

 

[drich0150]

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

That is what this life is, a place to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity in the Expressed Will of God, Rather than in our own will.

 

[aiki]

It's simpler than that IMO. what you say makes sense but we object to you framing the gossip as a her. In my churches both males and females were equally guilty of gossip.

And if I had referred to my gossip as a male someone else would have objected. "You can please some of the people some of the time..." In my church it was only women who seemed to gossip. Very likely the men did too in their own way, but I never noticed. Really, if the shoe fits...

Before creation of man is finished, God has chosen to give man the power to bring his will into submission to God's plan.

"Before creation of man is finished..."? I don't follow you here...

To be a perminant citizen of the kingdom, although one has free will, he must through the Holy Spirit, yield all his members of the flesh to God. That is called sanctification, necessary for the final trip.ytMy old Methodist doctrine is showing here.

"To be a permanent citizen of the kingdom..." Do you believe there are temporary citizens?

Sanctification, as I understand it, is the work of God in us whereby He enables us to "come out from among them and be separate" and "be holy as He is holy." This process while inevitable for those who are genuinely saved, wasn't necessary for the thief on the cross to whom Christ said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." Just a thought.

Selah.

 

[GadFly]

And if I had referred to my gossip as a male someone else would have objected. "You can please some of the people some of the time..." In my church it was only women who seemed to gossip. Very likely the men did too in their own way, but I never noticed. Really, if the shoe fits...

"Before creation of man is finished..."? I don't follow you here...

"To be a permanent citizen of the kingdom..." Do you believe there are temporary citizens?

Sanctification, as I understand it, is the work of God in us whereby He enables us to "come out from among them and be separate" and "be holy as He is holy." This process while inevitable for those who are genuinely saved, wasn't necessary for the thief on the cross to whom Christ said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." Just a thought.

Selah.[/QUOTE}
The purpose here is to answer the question of the OP. I did and you did not. Let's team up to provide an answer to a fellow that claims Christians have never answered his question. Just a thought.

 

[laconicstudent]

From the OP's absence, I assume we answered his question adequately.....

 

[Joveia]

One way of answering this I would use is: what does it mean for someone to be perfect? In a practical sense, what's it like to be perfect?

Well, if you assume that evil is not treating other people the way that you would like to be treated, then evil is not following your own principles perfectly or not choosing to have good principles. So a perfect person is someone who chooses good principles, and then acts on them with 100% consistency. E.g. a perfect person chooses to 'Do unto others' and then acts on that principle with 100% consistency.

So being a perfect person would feel a lot like picking good principles, and then always acting on them with 100% consistency. It would involve always being truthful about one's own principles.

So one can then go from here and say that the people in heaven won't sin because:

Col 2:13: "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

Because Jesus solved the sin problem on the cross, and that allows us to have good principles and always act on them (in a manner of speaking).

Therefore, there is no contradiction between a sinful world and a sinless new world. In the sinful world we chose to accept Jesus. In the sinless world, the result of our choice will be made manifest, and God will make it so that we can live out our good principles.

 

[aiki]

The purpose here is to answer the question of the OP. I did and you did not. Let's team up to provide an answer to a fellow that claims Christians have never answered his question. Just a thought.

LOL! What an interesting fellow you are! If you're so keen to satisfy the inquiry of the OPer, why comment on my response in the first place? Sheesh!

I actually did answer the OP's question. Sorry if its implications escaped you.

Selah.

 

[solarwave]

Here is my guess of an answer.

Perhaps in heaven we have a much closer connection to God and see His point of view much more easily and because of this desire only good and not evil.

So it would be closeness to God which lets us see reality fully and see the pointlessness of evil. Christian mystics have talked about a unity with God and in other religions there is the idea of the soul becoming one with the divine.