Do we want to 'be taken' or 'left behind'?

[cf4rc]

Hello everyone...peace to you...
Let's have a group prayer and see what we can see...

From the view of many in the church today...we want to "be taken", as in the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

I believe...we should want to be 'left behind' and that pre-tribulation rapture is a very dangerous and possibly even deadly doctrine.

What do you believe to be true...and why?

This is a very important subject to be discussed in the time in which we now live. The decision we make can absolutely affect our salvation!

It is time for some fun...on a serious subject...

peace and love...God Bless You...RC

 

[B1inHim]

I AGREE that the PRE-Trib teaching is very dangerous.

There is nothing to say that we can't go like Rev 7 says... "come out of the GT"...

It is very interesting that many would consider Lord Jesus as telling us that it would better if we were "left behind" in Matthew 24... BUT this is what He was talking about;
Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


The "wise" go.


The "foolish" get left behind.


By and in His Love,
Brother Jerry

 

[Gnarwhal]

I don't believe in rapture in general. I think LaHaye and Jenkins have done western Christianity a terrible disservice by writing their books and perpetuating this idea of Christians simultaneously 'vanishing' world-wide.

I believe we'll meet Jesus at His return but only to escort Him into His finished Kingdom (New Creation), as was the custom at the time 2 Thessalonians was written for Roman citizens to empty their city to greet Caesar at the port he arrived at and escort him into his territory.

I don't believe we're destined to leave Earth to death and decay, but instead we're to actively take part, in the present, in the restoration that began with Christ's resurrection and will be finished when He returns and the dead are resurrected.

Grace and peace.

 

[Bible2]

cf4rc said:

Do we want to 'be taken' or 'left behind'?

Neither.

For at the second coming (Matthew 24:30b,39b), saved people will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are (Matthew 24:40), but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Note that Matthew 24:40 won't occur until the second coming of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:39b-40), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) of Revelation chapters 6-18. Those "taken" at the second coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) will be unsaved people who will be taken where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Matthew 24:40) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (e.g. John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) will be unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). They will be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2). And their descendents will be deceived by the devil after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

cf4rc said:

. . . pre-tribulation rapture is a very dangerous and possibly even deadly doctrine.

Holding too strongly to the mistaken pre-trib idea could leave believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Revelation chapters 6-18 so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

Note that Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same future second coming of Jesus Christ and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same future second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the wedding supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[zeke37]

Hello everyone...peace to you...
Let's have a group prayer and see what we can see...

From the view of many in the church today...we want to "be taken", as in the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

I believe...we should want to be 'left behind' and that pre-tribulation rapture is a very dangerous and possibly even deadly doctrine.

What do you believe to be true...and why?

Hi

I believe as you do....
but I guess it depends on which parable one goes by...

if we take it with the 10 virgins brides to be,
then we would wanna be taken by the bride-Groom

if we try to make sense of it within the context it is given,
then we should wanna stay, and not be taken.

the context shows us as;
working in the field (which is a metaphor for being a shepherd)
being a watchman on the rooftops (which is a metaphor for looking for the enemy who comes while the Master is away)
grinding at the mill (which is a metaphor for spreading the Word of the Lord)

what is coming, is a flood of lies from the mouth of the dragon...
if we are taken, it is in his snare/lies....
if we are taken, we are taken away from doing what we were doing before...
which was working for the Lord


so the ones not taken, are still going to be working for the Lord when He comes...
which is why He would say the following...

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

they, are the ones subject to the flood...
they were not expecting it, even though they were told it was Coming
they were taken....
Noah and his family rode out the flood and were left working for God

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

so this directly relates to the "they/them" of verses 38-39.
I hope you're not taken.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

so we gotta watch until He comes...

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

we should be "doing" when the Lord Comes

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

sounds like the first fruits to me

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

there shall be many who believe, that shall gnash their teeth

This is a very important subject to be discussed in the time in which we now live. The decision we make can absolutely affect our salvation!

It is time for some fun...on a serious subject...

peace and love...God Bless You...RC

most here will not agree with you about this effecting your salvation,
but I agree with you...

IMO pre trib is the quickest way to be seduced,
because that crowd already believes that Jesus comes first to take them away
before the end time test even happens
they are not watching for the thief that comes while the Master is away

they think the Master comes and gets them before the thief comes to mess the place up.
so they are not even watching for the thief.

 

[NJBeliever]

I would never want to be left behind. Considering God is punishing unbelievers at this time, I would not want to be a part of that.

This also brings up that age old question that I never can seem to get an answer from post-tribbers from: When Jesus issues warnings that we need to be ready and not found drunken or surfeiting when He comes as a thief, why is this? What does it matter? What if we are found surfeiting, what is the consequence for a born again believer (which is who He was addressing when He said this)?? If you are already saved and Jesus comes back and finds you that way, what is the consequence?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Could I reword your question?


Do you want to be taken or receive strong delusion?

 

[Watchman_2]

Those 'taken' are taken by Satan!

Mat 10:22And ye shall be hated of allmenfor my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

​

Mat 24:13
​

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
​

Those that keep working in the field and grinding at the mill are saved.

 

[Choose Wisely]

so the ones not taken, are still going to be working for the Lord when He comes...
which is why He would say the following...

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

they, are the ones subject to the flood...
they were not expecting it, even though they were told it was Coming
they were taken....
Noah and his family rode out the flood and were left working for God

Hi Zeke,


Noah and his family were taken away in the ark. The others were left in the flood.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hi Zeke,


Noah and his family were taken away in the ark. The others were left in the flood.

Not only that but the angel could not destroy Sodom until Lit was out. Joshua held back all attacks until Rahab and her family got out. The Angel waited for the Israelites to post the blood on their doors before executing the firstborns. I defy post-tribbers to name one judgment sent from God that believers had to suffer through?

 

[realtruth101]

Not only that but the angel could not destroy Sodom until Lit was out. Joshua held back all attacks until Rahab and her family got out. The Angel waited for the Israelites to post the blood on their doors before executing the firstborns. I defy post-tribbers to name one judgment sent from God that believers had to suffer through?

you defy post -tribbers to name one judgement sent from God that believers had to suffer through (YOU ONLY WANT ONE!) ha ha ha how about we start at the very beginning Adam sinned and now we all suffer the consequences of Gods judgement against him, How about Moses and Aaron and Joshua and Caleb they had to suffer right along with the Israelites when God sent them out into the desert for forty years until all those who complained against God had died. Then there is Achan 36 men died in judgement for what Achan did. how about King David, His adultress relationship and murder of Uriah, Nathan tells David because of these things you have done, the child who is born to you will surly die. So even an innocent baby can suffer Gods judgement in punishment to another. The bible is full of stories where believers have to suffer through His judgement on others, in fact the story of Job required Job to suffer unbelievable suffering, through no fault of his own, he was blameless and upright, he feared God and shunned evil. So your idea or notion that somehow forbids God for allowing suffering or tribulations against believers is so unfounded and unbiblical I'm at a loss for words. But I hear if you click your heels togather three times and say "there will be no tribulation for those who believe" then much of scripture disappears from the printed page and abbra ca dabbra your sucked off the planet......P.S. this only works for fat Worldly Americans, It has shown not to work in other countries where tribulation has already started such as Africa, China and others best of luck.....read more listen less!

 

[cf4rc]

WOW...what a great start...thank you all...as we seek the truth of "What God Said"...together!
But, very important...let us present all posts from a point of total respect and courtesy for one another at all times...
This is not a thread, as I have seen many, to be used as a whipping post for those of whom we disagree with...he or she who brings antagonism, anger or hate...will not be welcome here!
We will present our opinions, as we have been welcomed to do, but if it is done in a way that breaks these 'simple rules of conduct' that person, or persons, will be asked to leave...by me, us or even CF if necessary.

2 Peter 1:2, 5-7; *Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, *And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; *And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; *And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Also, please let us try to stay on course...to consider this thread to be centered on the question as pertaining to the 'to be taken or left behind' in these times in which we now live and the things soon to come as based on Revelation 1:1 that says in part;
*The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him (John), to shew unto his servants (us) things which must shortly come to pass;

'Hearing' the varied opinions here should bring us all, including myself of course, to re-examine what we have come to believe as truth with the understanding that it may not be the truth...and therefore really be willing at all times to receive correction if correction is due...rather than blindly sticking to what we already believe no matter what...

Coming here to 'prove ourselves right' should not be our purpose but rather to have a desire, together, to learn the truth about this question no matter what that truth may be. And, to be able to do that we must not just scan over a post in order to give our personal reply to what has been said so that we may take the immediate opportunity to prove ourselves right.

But, at the same time, you and I both know that if we can present good enough evidence from the Word of God that supports what we believe in a great way we may wish to convince others that disagree to see the truth of what we believe.

Let us consider each post to possibly be 'the one' that will open our ears, eyes and heart to a new understanding of the truth. That is what makes discussions, debates and even arguments worthwhile and 'fruitful'.

Please understand...this is just a personal observation I am making at this time, at the beginning, so we will all keep in mind the importance of love for one another and that what others have to say is as important as what we ourselves have to say in return.

These are two of my favorite verses, if not my favorites, for they clearly state what I believe to be important at any time but maybe especially so today:

1 Corinthians 16:13-14 as presented in the NKJV; *Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. *Let all that you do be done with love.

Enough said...I myself have digressed from the subject and object of this discussion...please forgive me.

Thank you...please continue to inspire me...peace and love to all...God Bless

 

[NJBeliever]

RealTruth- you are mistaking corporate judgment with indivual judgment. Individuals suffer in the Bible all thd time. So all your individual examples (99% of your post) are inapplicable. And your example of Adam and Eve is completely inapplicable as to BELIEVERS. The sin nature and curses of Genesis are passed on to humanity as unbelievers. Christ defeated all of this by becoming a curse for us. So a believer has no curse or judgment on them. This is the main point of the entire Bible by the way.

So again, my challenge stands. There are no judgments sent to the Earth from God that His believers had to suffer through.

 

[NJBeliever]

And also this has nothing to do with my being American, despite your blatant stereotyping. It just had to do with proper reading of Scripture. Ghe post-trib model is heavily flawed under Biblical scrutiny.

 

[cf4rc]

Hmmmmm...peace to you...

Before this continues in the direction it seems to be headed in by a couple of our friends here...please read and pay attention to my post on this page...it might help...at least I hope so!

Thank you and God bless...

 

[zeke37]

Hi Zeke,


Noah and his family were taken away in the ark. The others were left in the flood.

hi...

the OP asked a specific question...

i presented the scripture that shows who the "they" were that got taken in the flood of Noah's day....

Noah was NOT taken, he was left....

THEY who were eating and making merry, marrying and having a wonderful old time, were taken in the flood...

I'll repeat for u...from Mat24


so the ones not taken, are still going to be working for the Lord when He comes...
which is why He would say the following...

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

they, are the ones subject to the flood...
they were not expecting it, even though they were told it was Coming
they were taken....
Noah and his family rode out the flood and were left working for God


strait from the Bible dude!
the "they" that are taken by the flood in Noah's day,
are like the "they" that will be taken in the end times
as the subsequent parables in Mat24 easily show.


context...be taken or to be left.......
the answer is in the same chapter that we get the question...go figure???

 

[B1inHim]

context...be taken or to be left.......
the answer is in the same chapter that we get the question...go figure???

OK, so, hmmm, there are 10 virgins, five are foolish and five are wise.

The wise virgins leave to go to the wedding.

The foolish are left behind and outside.

The parable explains exactly who is taken and who is not.

That is what the Word says.

But, like many who are believing that we all stay here till the VERY end, somehow this parable is turned around by misinterpreting the statement that was given before this parable.

Matthew 24: 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

How is it going to be at the coming of the Son of Man?
"eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage"

Who was taken up in the boat while the others were left behind.
Noah and his family.

When a boat leaves port and there are people on the gang plank who did not get on the boat, who is left behind.

TWO are working, one is taken the other is left behind.

Five "wise" virgins leave.
Five "foolish" virgins are left.

This is very simple until we introduce the interpretations of those who demand that we stay here for the entire GT.

"Immediately after the distress of those days..." what days, the ones that Lord Jesus told us about.
Does this mean that there is no GT after those days.
Absolutely not.
Nothing says that they end at that time.

Here is what is happening.
Based on the current events, the GT is already happening.

According to Apostle John there is a Great Multitude of individuals who show up in heaven, who come OUT OF the GT in Rev 7
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

WE have not lived to that time and space as of yet, so until the 6th seal is opened with evidence.
There is no way that any of us have to stay here all the way through to the end of the GT in order to be rescued.

Our Lord ALWAYS explained Himself when He gave us parables.

The parable of the 10 virgins is the explanation of who goes and who gets left behind, period.

There is NOT going to be some mysterious disappearance of millions of Christians before the GT, too late.

It will happen during the evidenced outcome of the opening of the 6th seal, which is not only information, but literal action.

Lord Jesus told us about it a little.
Prophet Joel told a little about is.
Apostle John covered it completely.

What happens directly after the opening of the 6th seal...

Rev.7.

TEN virgins.
Five leave.
Five stay.

What can we expect to happen before Lord Jesus returns for us.

Joel 3:15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
Matthew 24:“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Rev.6 12 I watched as He opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Matthew 24: 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him.

By and in His Love,
Brother Jerry

 

[Choose Wisely]

i presented the scripture that shows who the "they" were that got taken in the flood of Noah's day....

Noah was NOT taken, he was left....

That logic doesn't work too good when we keep reading. So of the two women that were grinding at the mill.........using this logic......the woman that was taken ends up being the woman that is left grinding at the mill. That logic won't won't work. The one taken is the one taken, not the one left grinding.

Further........the one taken is the one caught up. Noah IS taken, he wasn't left.

Mat 24

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left


1Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Truth Files]

The taken ones in this passage of scripture are those that will be "taken" [killed] in the judgments of the tribulation .... those" left" will be those who survive the tribulation

The Lord speaks of judgment for those taken by His reference to the scene of vultures hovering over the dead body [Luke 17:35-37]

This passage of scripture has nothing to do with His "harpazo" action His church

 

[Choose Wisely]

The taken ones in this passage of scripture are those that will be "taken" [killed] in the judgments of the tribulation .... those" left" will be those who survive the tribulation

The Lord speaks of judgment for those taken by His reference to the scene of vultures hovering over the dead body

This passage of scripture has nothing to do with His "harpazo" action His church

Force that square peg in that round hole

.......use a jackhammer, the sledge is not going to cut it.