Not another 'atheism thread' (on emotional motives)

[carmelsnowcone]

I hate to reopen the whole 'atheists and christians have the wrong impression of each other' debate, but something my friend said a while ago bothered me greatly and I wanted some feedback.

So my friend and I was walking through the mall randomly hitting on any subject from anime to world events, when my being an atheist was brought up. It was a passing comment on my part, but it made her bring up that her pastor had just done a sermon on atheism and that the cause was bad experiences with christians or exposure to hypocritical christians that turned us away from our faith.

I wasn't expected it.

I just told her that her pastor might believe that, but that it wasn't acurate. Atheists are people and like everything else are varied in reasons and motives. She just shrugged her shoulders and let the subject drop and we moved on to next topic, I may have convinced her but I'm not sure.

It wasn't untill later that I realized how bothered I was by that sermon. It was in a way unintentional insulting (not that I hold that against my friend). It would require you to immediatly assume someone was at a point Christian, then assume they need an emotionally charged reason to turn away from their faith, rather than coming to the conclusion that there is just not enough evidence to back the claim.

My father is the only atheist I really know, and he never talks about religion(or much of anything really). I have been surround by very good religious people that have excelled in life and are most christian's ideal(from mormons to methodists, penecostals to catholics). I have seen a chruch rise to an occasion during a disastor and bring a small town much needed aid. I've played at a chruch with church kids and enjoyed many activities there and done church community service.

And it still isn't enough to believe, it irrelevent to the issue of belief even.



So anyones thoughts on this topic are appreciated. Sorry to be so long winded but this has been under my skin for awhile. Should emotional reasons be the deciding factor in defining reality?

 

[salida]

No -emotions are like a rollar coaster. Overwhelming evidence should- even though being a christian is for spiritual reasons first.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
http://findingtruthtoday.org/ItsNotAboutYOU.aspx
　
Research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first. I have studied other religions and they don’t come close to this evidence.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest. www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/,
http://christiananswers.net/
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 BC; some scholars think 3000 BC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[salida]

No -emotions are like a rollar coaster. Overwhelming evidence should- even though being a christian is for spiritual reasons first.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
http://findingtruthtoday.org/ItsNotAboutYOU.aspx
　
Research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first. I have studied other religions and they don’t come close to this evidence.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest. www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/,
http://christiananswers.net/
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 BC; some scholars think 3000 BC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[carmelsnowcone]

Well thank you for the response even if its not exactly on the issue. I will start reviewing and researching the information you have given me as soon as my life gives me time.

Before I go do that however I feel the need to point out that you could give me tons of credible information, but thats still not a valid reason to believe and worship a greater power. I sincerly hope that the bible is not accurate otherwise before I burn for eternity god and I need to have a heart to heart about morality.

to touch a few,

you mention that its a spiritual decision first, you kind of threw that out there like it was granted and I don't think you realize the implications of what you said. If you have a spiritual decision you commit to first (usually when your young) then all of your evidence based reasoning afterwards are going to be baised and bent to where it will fit your preconcieved notions.

You also mention that other faiths don't come close in evidence, I wonder what your opinion to other sects of Christianity, Islam, and Judism. (I won't touch on the other religions yet.)

you mentioned prophesies, to which I have to wince slightly, most known religions have prophesies, many in the bible have not come true although some have. Still for those that did come true a simple application of vagueness, probablity, and the study of self fullfiling prophesies. This is assuming that the phrophesies were written before the actual events passed.

Historical accuracy, okay I really don't know why this is even relevent. just because the bible depicts real people and places and even events doesn't mean that the supernatural part is true. Harry goes to London to get on the train, but I am fairly sure there isn't a secret soicity of wizards lurking about.

Written by god...um what? Sure the bible says its written by god but are you going to take its word for it? If I wrote a book and said it was endorsed by god would you think its something special? On that note god may have inspired the books that make up the bible, but he (according to you) didn't actually have anything to do with making a cannon of Christianity that produced the bible. In fact, many gospels didn't make it in.

There's more I could get to but I want to do some more research first, then I will get back to you.

Sorry for the bluntness, I nitpick because I love...

this thread isn't really about biblical acuraccy though, its about perceptions and motives...

 

[razeontherock]

Ok jumping in w/o reading the OP:

I sincerly hope that the bible is not accurate otherwise before I burn for eternity god and I need to have a heart to heart about morality.

THIS is significant! If you don't already see how this expresses the primary sense of my username, let me explain just to be sure you don't miss it since I think this is important:

THIS life is the time and place for such things. We're given with a choice: consciously, volitionally throw ourselves at the Mercy of the Most Merciful, casting ourselves down upon His Judgment like a ROCK, knowing there will only be one possible outcome:

we will be broken in pieces.

Option two: said Rock will fall on us, and we will be ground to powder. Guess which one I opt for?

to touch a few,

you mention that its a spiritual decision first, you kind of threw that out there like it was granted and I don't think you realize the implications of what you said. If you have a spiritual decision you commit to first (usually when your young) then all of your evidence based reasoning afterwards are going to be baised and bent to where it will fit your preconcieved notions.

Here we come upon limitatins of language being used trying to express the ineffable. What is your concept of 'a Spiritual decision?'

Next up, we have a Parable where we are to take out the treasure of our heart, and find things both good and bad. This refers to an ongoing process. Note in my tagline, the comment I attribute to Isaac and Jacob. Guess why that's there?

you mentioned prophesies, many in the bible have not come true although some have.

Exactly backwards. I can tell you have not familiarized yourself w/ Biblical numerology; a fascinating study!

Still for those that did come true a simple application of vagueness, probablity

The probability exceeds the infinitely impossible. No vagueness in fulfilled Prophecy. In fact, we see a pattern of fulfilled Prophecy being exact down to the smallest detail, while dreams and visions are fulfilled in ways not even physically resembling what was seen. Makes me chuckle at modern attempts at interpreting Revelation via news headlines.

Sure the bible says its written by god but are you going to take its word for it?

This doesn't describe Faith, neither is it what Biblical Faith is based on. Just so you know. I think that should be one of the later topics to pursue ...

In fact, many gospels didn't make it in.

If this troubles you you should look into the reason the Bible was written down in the first place. There's really no scandal involved in the process of 'canon,' as you seem to think. "The Church" originally meant Jerusalem. Nobody needed to write anything down, everything was clearly known. As other areas began having meetings of their own, they began to worry they might deviate from the Truth of the message, and so requested for certain things to be put into writing so they couldn't mess it all up. The purpose for all of this was their order of Service, which the Bible itself was merely a part of.

The "other (so called) gospels you refer to never served any such function. There was never any dispute over this.

So there's your motives. Perceptions are more subjective

 

[razeontherock]

her pastor had just done a sermon on atheism and that the cause was bad experiences with christians or exposure to hypocritical christians that turned us away from our faith.

It wasn't untill later that I realized how bothered I was by that sermon.

Please realize the likelihood why a Pastor would preach such a thing:

his motive, based on the perceptions within his congregation,

addresses specific needs within G-d's people, sitting on the pew. Nothing more, nothing less. the teaching then becomes not to be hypocritical re: the profession of our Faith. That is truly good preaching! Sharing it with an atheist friend, not so much. I trust you realize she meant no harm. How old are the 2 of you?

Should emotional reasons be the deciding factor in defining reality?

Perceiving that to be a rhetorical question, you make a good point!

 

[Hamish MacWolf]

Hi Carmelsnowcone,

I shouldn't apologise for your thread. I feel it's a core issue, and actually, one of the biggest issue globally today. So, well done you for being so darn relevant.

The atheist/Christian relationship is actually a key reason as to why I ended up here; I used to paddle around another forum (a spin off from an online game, not a particularly faith-based one) until I became tired and frustrated with thinly-veiled hostility.

But you asked for thoughts on the topic. Well, specifically regarding your case study with your friend, you mentioned the line "bad experiences with christians or exposure to hypocritical christians that turned us away from our faith."

If it is referencing 'turning away from faith' atheism, as opposed to 'always held the belief' atheism, then the point the pastor was making seems a little more relevant. If one held a belief, then later abandoned it, often that it because something within the belief drove the person away, or else a new belief seemed better. And if it was the former reason, rather than the latter, then the driving away force may be the other followers of the belief, or else a critical flaw within the belief itself.

The point I am trying to make is that for some people, in some circumstances, the message your friend's pastor was making is relatively true. That said, if you were a person to whom the specifics did not apply, but felt the message was directed towards you, I can see how being generalised against can feel insulting, or belittling. I mean, I feel exactly the same way when I am included in a generality which may only be partially true.

As to your question,

Should emotional reasons be the deciding factor in defining reality?

Truth is, they will be a factor, whether we like it or not, admit it or not. There is no such thing as an unbiased individual, and our biases are the result of our personal history. In the Buddhist view: "Filtered through some predisposition, you are the product of everything that ever happened to you."
And: "Each moment is only possible because of every moment since the beginning of time."

Our perception of reality is as unique as the selves doing the perceiving. Advocates of purely logical thought love to espouse reason free from emotion, but honey...

you won't get that from a human.

Hope this helps. Or was interesting.