Why are atheists considered to be so dishonest?

[oi_antz]

As it turns out, there's one quote I agree with too (provided I edit it a bit):

The Penitent Man: "You can't just demand courtesy and respect from other people if you treat them like garbage. This is the Golden Rule."

If there really is an Antichrist, I really doubt it's mission is to ruin Christ's "title." However, if it's meant to make sure that nobody follows in Christ's footsteps, and turn people off of Christ's message, then it seems far more likely to be your camp, not mine that possesses the spirit of the Antichrist.

Hmm, that attitude isn't the best friend you can have. I think it demonstrates some level of ignorance, since you firstly presume there is no antichrist, then you go on to presume what the antichrist's motives might be as though you're an authority on the subject. Perhaps you can learn from my experience with the antichrist spirit.

When you come to hear the truth about God (in this sense, "truth" being information which is backed by scripture and challenges your conscience), you are confronted to make a decision. Either you will believe it or you will contest it. I'm sure you follow and agree to that much.

Now, when this information is pertinent to whether you believe Jesus is Christ, you'll have some arguments for and against going through your mind. The arguments for will come from the person evangelising as well as the Holy Spirit. The arguments against will come from your flesh wanting to remain sinful, or even the antichrist spirit can put thoughts in your mind. So essentially when you are confronted with such a decision, you will either choose to believe in Christ or not, thus you either listen to the Christian message or the anti-Christian message.

Now, you seem to think that Christians are therefore representing the antichrist because you happen to make a non-Christian decision, but that isn't the case. The fact is that there was more temptation to draw you into an anti-Christian message than to draw you into the Christian message, and this ought not be too much surprise. What does the devil promise you? Parties, orgies, fame, wealth, basically anything your body cries out for to give it pleasure - there are no boundaries. What does Christ promise you? Eternal life in exchange for repentance, in other words cash in all the sinful pleasures that your body desires in exchange for a hope that when you die you'll receive something that you've never had the chance to experience or witness before.

So, due to the basic human nature we call "greed" your chances of actually accepting the Christian message aren't that great. In actual fact, Ray Comfort discovered an interesting statistic, that 80-90% of converts fall away again, they don't have genuine faith! The reason for this? They expected Christianity an investment that it would make their experience of life even better, well that is an empty and hollow motive. You don't have a genuine love for God by coming in with that reason, and that is why I amongst others make a distinction that a person is either for Christ or against Christ. They either love and adore Jesus for who He is, or they have some sort of reason not to and when each one of us is pressed into making that decision, we are divided to sit on one side of the fence or the other. This is what Jesus meant when He said "presume not that I have come to bring peace, for I bring a sword".

I hope this helps you understand a bit better, it is certainly not the desire of any Christian to turn you away from Christ, so a persons decision to reject Christ is due to the argument of the enemy which exploits our greatest weakness: greed, and this is the spirit of the anti-Christ, he is the enemy of Christ that Christ's suffering for your sake was in vain.

 

[sb81]

Sorry I didn't read the rest of the thread, I'm sure my reason has already been listed...

I believe Atheists by default are dishonest to themselves and have allowed themselves to be deceived. Please do not take this as a condescending remark. I have many unbelieving associates in my life who I care for and enjoy their company greatly.

However, when it comes to anything philosophical or meaningful in regards to the great questions of the universe (meaning of life, man, the eternal cause of our existence, etc) it is hard to take their thoughts into consideration when there is absolutely no evidence for their world view.

Now in regards to just dishonesty in general in day to day activities I think this is more of a question of who man is and his innate sinful nature. As we all know, many professing Christians are also dishonest and hypocritical. I pray to my Heavenly Father that he does not see me as a hypocrite and his Holy Spirit will continue working in my life.

I believe there are many atheists who are more than capable of being relatively honest and "good" as far as mankind goes. However, mankind in general is a fallen failure of a creature who desperately requires a Savior.

Warm Regards

 

[JGG]

Hmm, that attitude isn't the best friend you can have. I think it demonstrates some level of ignorance, since you firstly presume there is no antichrist, then you go on to presume what the antichrist's motives might be as though you're an authority on the subject. Perhaps you can learn from my experience with the antichrist spirit.

I'm sorry, but I'm just as much an expert on reality as any other person on this planet. Afterall, an uncountable number of Christians have speculated on who the antichrist was. Stalin, Hitler, George H.W. Bush, Clinton, George W. Bush, Al Gore, Saddam Hussein, Putin, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, Obama. And those are just a few example from the past century. All of them demonstrably wrong. There are no experts on the antichrist, so I believe I can speculate all I want.

When you come to hear the truth about God (in this sense, "truth" being information which is backed by scripture and challenges your conscience), you are confronted to make a decision. Either you will believe it or you will contest it. I'm sure you follow and agree to that much.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I can either accept that whatever you tell me is true, or I'm the antichrist. That's not a reasonable choice, is horribly manipulative, and I do not accept it. The "You're either with us or against us" ultimatum makes puts you among the people in my signature.

And no, I do not agree. Just because you believe you have presented the truth about God doesn't mean you have. Maybe you don't have the truth. Maybe you presented it badly, or incoherently, or flat out made mistakes. Maybe you left out, or were ignorant of key points that were important. There's all kinds of ways in which this choice is not a true choice. And no, you have hardly challenged my conscience.

While we're at it, I don't accept scripture as an authority on anything. Why would I? That would require prior faith in God, which I lack. Besides, weren't you the one who said don't trust anybody?

Now, when this information is pertinent to whether you believe Jesus is Christ, you'll have some arguments for and against going through your mind. The arguments for will come from the person evangelising as well as the Holy Spirit.

Right now, the people evangelising are my argument for not believing. As I said, you people are unbelievable.

The arguments against will come from your flesh wanting to remain sinful, or even the antichrist spirit can put thoughts in your mind. So essentially when you are confronted with such a decision, you will either choose to believe in Christ or not, thus you either listen to the Christian message or the anti-Christian message.

Now, you seem to think that Christians are therefore representing the antichrist because you happen to make a non-Christian decision, but that isn't the case.

No, I say Christians represent the antichrist because clearly not a single one of them represents Christ. As you yourself pointed out they have their own agendas, and their own reasons for manipulating others. None of them can be trusted, none of them is genuine, none of them is Christlike. Yet they will all claim to be. Sound like someone we study about in Bible Study? By your own reasoning, if they don't represent Christ, they must be the antichrist. Not that I place stock in that.

The fact is that there was more temptation to draw you into an anti-Christian message than to draw you into the Christian message, and this ought not be too much surprise.

Of course not, as there is no Christian message. If Christ did exist, there is no person on Earth preaching about Him or His message. They preach their own. As we both agree that Christians are not to be trusted, there is no genuine Christian message, and I would be justified in rejecting the ones out there. Better to trust myself to find my own faith than to put faith in someone else's. Right?

What does the devil promise you? Parties, orgies, fame, wealth, basically anything your body cries out for to give it pleasure - there are no boundaries.

Devil hasn't promised me anything.

What does Christ promise you? Eternal life in exchange for repentance, in other words cash in all the sinful pleasures that your body desires in exchange for a hope that when you die you'll receive something that you've never had the chance to experience or witness before.

Christ does not offer me these things, Christians do. And frankly, I don't want parties, orgies, fame or the like. Nor do I want eternal life. It is simply unimportant to me. I have what I need. All I really want is to explore what's out there to find the truth my way. But apparently nobody offers that, everybody wants to give me something in exchange for something. If God wants me to have faith, God will give me reason to have faith. He doesn't need to offer me something in return, only to give me the truth. We should be looking for the same thing. But I cannot seem to simply have faith, I need a reason to have faith. Faith is uninteresting. Genuine understanding, that's interesting.

However, what sin do you think I take part in that would keep me from believing in God? I go to temple every Saturday (Jewish sabbath probably still counts), don't drink, smoke, do drugs, or watch porn. I actually don't use the Lord's name in vain. No extramarital sex, no adultery, never raped anyone (not that it's declared a sin, but let's assume it is) and I'm straight. I don't steal, I have never murdered everyone, and I happen to think I'm remarkably honest. I was the only of my siblings to attend my mother's hospital bed, or funeral. I'm even kosher, and have never used artificial birth control if you're a stickler for those things. Honestly, most people who do believe in God are not as clean as I am. I don't mean to sound less than humble, but it makes me angry when people say that I lack belief in God because I want to sin. That's simply dishonest and lazy. You don't know the first thing about me, or my reasons for believing or not.

I lack belief in God because I have not been given what I find to be adequate reason to believe in God. Let's leave it at that, because it seems fair to say that I am by far more of an expert on me than you are.

So, due to the basic human nature we call "greed" your chances of actually accepting the Christian message aren't that great. In actual fact, Ray Comfort discovered an interesting statistic, that 80-90% of converts fall away again, they don't have genuine faith! The reason for this? They expected Christianity an investment that it would make their experience of life even better, well that is an empty and hollow motive.

Great. Believe me, I certainly do not have that as an expectation.

You don't have a genuine love for God by coming in with that reason, and that is why I amongst others make a distinction that a person is either for Christ or against Christ. They either love and adore Jesus for who He is, or they have some sort of reason not to and when each one of us is pressed into making that decision, we are divided to sit on one side of the fence or the other. This is what Jesus meant when He said "presume not that I have come to bring peace, for I bring a sword".

At least I will admit, that I don't know God. Afterall, how could I? I'm sorry, just like Thomas, I'm just not capable of simple faith. I've been wrong plenty of times before, and odds are I'll be wrong again if all I exercise is faith without reason. So I need better assurances than just having faith. I need reason. As I explained before, having faith in God because he bribes you or threatens you is not genuine love either. However, no Christian can offer me any reason to have faith other than this. Ipso facto, I have no good reason to have faith in God. If believing in God won't make my life better, I'm not scared of hell, and don't particularly want eternal life, what reason is there to believe. But indeed, we get to the true nature of Christianity: To divide people. To set up the righteous and the wicked, the Christians and the antichristians, the believers and the non-believers, the good guys and the bad guys, our team and my team. Christianity was created to create enemies. Isn't that what all the people in my signature expressed? You're either with us or against us. Clearly, I'm not with you, so I must be your enemy. That God concept is Ares, God of war.

I hope this helps you understand a bit better, it is certainly not the desire of any Christian to turn you away from Christ, so a persons decision to reject Christ is due to the argument of the enemy which exploits our greatest weakness: greed, and this is the spirit of the anti-Christ, he is the enemy of Christ that Christ's suffering for your sake was in vain.

Turning me away from Christ means that you lose brownie points with God. That doesn't mean that Christians aren't still experts at it.

Read that signature one more time. I have a hard time believing that these are the people that God has reached out to to represent Him, and to spread His message. Especially not to spread His message to someone like me. No God worth believing in chooses these people as their messenger.

Realistically, you just drew a line in the sand and called me the antichrist if I don't believe what you believe. What a great message.

 

[JGG]

Sorry I didn't read the rest of the thread, I'm sure my reason has already been listed...

I believe Atheists by default are dishonest to themselves and have allowed themselves to be deceived. Please do not take this as a condescending remark. I have many unbelieving associates in my life who I care for and enjoy their company greatly.

Yeah, I know. Some of my best friends are Irish, but let me tell you a few things about how deceived Irish people are...

Seriously? Yeah, that's a little condescending.

However, when it comes to anything philosophical or meaningful in regards to the great questions of the universe (meaning of life, man, the eternal cause of our existence, etc) it is hard to take their thoughts into consideration when there is absolutely no evidence for their world view.

Firstly, how precisely does this relate to atheists being dishonest? It would seem nothing.

Secondly, you have a hard time taking my thoughts into consideration because there is no evidence for my world view? Which part of my world view is troubling you exactly? I tell you what, why don't you spell out for everyone what my world view is, point by point, and then you can easily explain why you reject my evidence for it.

Now in regards to just dishonesty in general in day to day activities I think this is more of a question of who man is and his innate sinful nature. As we all know, many professing Christians are also dishonest and hypocritical. I pray to my Heavenly Father that he does not see me as a hypocrite and his Holy Spirit will continue working in my life.

Uh-huh...

I believe there are many atheists who are more than capable of being relatively honest and "good" as far as mankind goes. However, mankind in general is a fallen failure of a creature who desperately requires a Savior.

Uh-huh...

Warm Regards

Yeah...

 

[sb81]

Hmm, well okay then. Sorry for any trouble I may have caused by responding to your thread.

Good luck accomplishing whatever it is you are trying to.

 

[JGG]

Hmm, well okay then. Sorry for any trouble I may have caused by responding to your thread.

Good luck accomplishing whatever it is you are trying to.

No by all means, you were telling me what my world view is...

What I was hoping to accomplish cannot be accomplished as long as Christians thumb their collective nose at people who don't have their faith.

 

[sb81]

No by all means, you were telling me what my world view is...

What I was hoping to accomplish cannot be accomplished as long as Christians thumb their collective nose at people who don't have their faith.

If what you are trying to accomplish is any type of meaningful discussion, then said discussion cannot be accomplished when you come in with such a defensive stance.

The only advice I can offer at this point is if it offends you that people assume you have an atheistic world view, then do not label yourself an atheist.

 

[oi_antz]

If what you are trying to accomplish is any type of meaningful discussion, then said discussion cannot be accomplished when you come in with such a defensive stance.

The only advice I can offer at this point is if it offends you that people assume you have an atheistic world view, then do not label yourself an atheist.

It's not really so simple, atheism is obviously as much a label for an inherent nature as male is for a man. The root problem is that JGG has a set of beliefs which cause him to be offended when he hears the beliefs of a Christian. We can't expect people to change into something they aren't just because it will make their life easier, it didn't work when they persecuted Jesus, Paul or Stephen. The will is the most powerful force anyone possesses, it's very important not to hand the keys to our beliefs to the wrong person. Not every understands that Jesus being God's son (the giver of life) is the only person who is perfect enough to trust.

 

[oi_antz]

I'm sorry, but I'm just as much an expert on reality as any other person on this planet. Afterall, an uncountable number of Christians have speculated on who the antichrist was. Stalin, Hitler, George H.W. Bush, Clinton, George W. Bush, Al Gore, Saddam Hussein, Putin, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, Obama. And those are just a few example from the past century. All of them demonstrably wrong. There are no experts on the antichrist, so I believe I can speculate all I want.

Well you may believe you can speculate all you want but that won't guarantee you will be correct. The only way you will be correct is to learn what God says about the matter, since He is the creator of all living creatures afterall and the coming of the lawless one will only happen when the one preventing him steps out of the way.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I can either accept that whatever you tell me is true, or I'm the antichrist. That's not a reasonable choice, is horribly manipulative, and I do not accept it. The "You're either with us or against us" ultimatum makes puts you among the people in my signature.

Well take it or leave it, the decision truly belongs to you. As for me, I've heard what God says, I've accepted it, sought to understand and agree with it, and quite frankly I don't believe I'm in any position to argue with Him. You might have a different attitude toward God, that is for you to sort out.

And no, I do not agree. Just because you believe you have presented the truth about God doesn't mean you have. Maybe you don't have the truth. Maybe you presented it badly, or incoherently, or flat out made mistakes. Maybe you left out, or were ignorant of key points that were important. There's all kinds of ways in which this choice is not a true choice. And no, you have hardly challenged my conscience.

Well all I can do is the best I am capable of. If it's not good enough (and certainly due to communication issues not to mention cultural issues and preconceptions), I'm not surprised you can't see what I truly think when I say it.

While we're at it, I don't accept scripture as an authority on anything. Why would I? That would require prior faith in God, which I lack. Besides, weren't you the one who said don't trust anybody?

No, I said only trust God. Do you know that the Bible has the effect of bringing us closer to God or hardening our hearts against Him? It depends what you are hoping to get from it when you read it. Learning about God is a premeditated decision, either you will come to the Bible expecting to learn how holy He is, or you will come trying to learn how evil He is. You need to examine where your heart lies on that matter if you want to find peace with God. Again, that is a decision you must make for yourself.

Right now, the people evangelising are my argument for not believing. As I said, you people are unbelievable.

Well I explained why that is, there is something about Christianity you don't like, and that is preventing you from accepting it. Otherwise you would already be Christian and it wouldn't matter what anyone else thinks because that isn't the slightest bit important when your life is about knowing God and what He thinks.

No, I say Christians represent the antichrist because clearly not a single one of them represents Christ. As you yourself pointed out they have their own agendas, and their own reasons for manipulating others. None of them can be trusted, none of them is genuine, none of them is Christlike. Yet they will all claim to be. Sound like someone we study about in Bible Study? By your own reasoning, if they don't represent Christ, they must be the antichrist. Not that I place stock in that.

Now you are twisting my words to suit your own agenda, you know nothing about my reasoning. For goodness sake, why don't you read what I've written and try to get your head around it instead of putting words in my mouth and jumping to a false conclusion. 1 Corinthians 12:3 "So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.", and don't forget that the first motive I listed is actually an honorable one: a gratification from having helped another establish a personal reality of God. Nothing wrong with that, is there.

Of course not, as there is no Christian message. If Christ did exist, there is no person on Earth preaching about Him or His message. They preach their own. As we both agree that Christians are not to be trusted, there is no genuine Christian message, and I would be justified in rejecting the ones out there. Better to trust myself to find my own faith than to put faith in someone else's. Right?

No, don't trust yourself, chances are it's not you you are trusting. Only trust God, trust what He has said through His prophets, son and apostles. Your fellow man is only good for discussing understandings but ultimately it is your responsibility to be sure you have a clear conscience about how you apply the Bible to your life and then when anyone seems to pass judgment you will be sure that you are justified by God.

Devil hasn't promised me anything.

What do you see as the benefit of not honoring Christ?

Christ does not offer me these things, Christians do. And frankly, I don't want parties, orgies, fame or the like. Nor do I want eternal life. It is simply unimportant to me. I have what I need. All I really want is to explore what's out there to find the truth my way. But apparently nobody offers that, everybody wants to give me something in exchange for something. If God wants me to have faith, God will give me reason to have faith. He doesn't need to offer me something in return, only to give me the truth. We should be looking for the same thing. But I cannot seem to simply have faith, I need a reason to have faith. Faith is uninteresting. Genuine understanding, that's interesting.

It's only human nature to want a reason. Jesus says "He who loses His life for my sake will gain it". How can someone who wants to live for their own sake be able to fulfill that command? So you can't actually become Christian based on any kind of selfish desire because your faith will be hollow and won't last. Just as you and I have both agreed upon throughout this topic, there must be a solid reason why one would honor God. What that reason is for you is just for you to discover by examining your attitudes toward God, looking to identify where you fail to see God's point of view and presume that His laws are less perfect than you would expect from a perfect God. The type of faith you are searching for cannot be spoon-fed, you have to reap your own harvest and I can tell you that it takes some hard work.

As for parties, orgies, fame, money etc I do understand that not everyone desires these things and I didn't mean to offend you by implying that you do because that would have been extremely presumptuous. My point was to demonstrate that Satan is the lawless one, his pitch is "screw God's laws and do what you feel like". Don't you see that attitude in anyone who isn't Christian? God on the other hand says He has laws because that is the key to harmony in the world He has created, and when His laws are broken sin creeps into the world and destroys the harmony of His perfect creation. So sin is not just a trespass against your brother, but against the creator Himself.

However, what sin do you think I take part in that would keep me from believing in God? I go to temple every Saturday (Jewish sabbath probably still counts), don't drink, smoke, do drugs, or watch porn. I actually don't use the Lord's name in vain. No extramarital sex, no adultery, never raped anyone (not that it's declared a sin, but let's assume it is) and I'm straight. I don't steal, I have never murdered everyone, and I happen to think I'm remarkably honest. I was the only of my siblings to attend my mother's hospital bed, or funeral. I'm even kosher, and have never used artificial birth control if you're a stickler for those things. Honestly, most people who do believe in God are not as clean as I am. I don't mean to sound less than humble, but it makes me angry when people say that I lack belief in God because I want to sin. That's simply dishonest and lazy. You don't know the first thing about me, or my reasons for believing or not.

I lack belief in God because I have not been given what I find to be adequate reason to believe in God. Let's leave it at that, because it seems fair to say that I am by far more of an expert on me than you are.

Well I'm not about to say you are wrong for being so strict in upholding a code of ethics reflective of God's law, however I will say that in the eyes of God there is none who is without fault. While it is good to esteem for righteousness, it is dangerous to be proud of your efforts. I think I have mentioned before that pride can prevent you from esteeming God to His rightful position as the one you ought consult for instruction in righteousness.

Great. Believe me, I certainly do not have that as an expectation.

At least I will admit, that I don't know God. Afterall, how could I? I'm sorry, just like Thomas, I'm just not capable of simple faith. I've been wrong plenty of times before, and odds are I'll be wrong again if all I exercise is faith without reason. So I need better assurances than just having faith. I need reason. As I explained before, having faith in God because he bribes you or threatens you is not genuine love either. However, no Christian can offer me any reason to have faith other than this. Ipso facto, I have no good reason to have faith in God. If believing in God won't make my life better, I'm not scared of hell, and don't particularly want eternal life, what reason is there to believe.

The best reason is the truth. If there is a God who gave you life, and there is an enemy of God who takes the lives of anyone so gullible, wouldn't you want to make a stand for the truth? Your decision, I hope you are as much aware of the incentives to not take a stand for God as you seem to be concentrating on the incentives of doing so.

But indeed, we get to the true nature of Christianity: To divide people. To set up the righteous and the wicked, the Christians and the antichristians, the believers and the non-believers, the good guys and the bad guys, our team and my team. Christianity was created to create enemies. Isn't that what all the people in my signature expressed? You're either with us or against us. Clearly, I'm not with you, so I must be your enemy. That God concept is Ares, God of war.

To be clear, God is the giver of life, Satan is the destroyer of life. God's enemies existed well before Jesus came, Christianity is not designed to create enemies but identify them. I can assure you, whichever side of the fence we sit on there is some sense of satisfaction prompting us to be contentious about our position and incite others to join us.

Turning me away from Christ means that you lose brownie points with God. That doesn't mean that Christians aren't still experts at it.

Well like I said, it's your decision to make, and like Paul says as long as I haven't shrunk from telling you what God want's you to know, the blood is not on my hands.

Read that signature one more time. I have a hard time believing that these are the people that God has reached out to to represent Him, and to spread His message. Especially not to spread His message to someone like me. No God worth believing in chooses these people as their messenger.

You could very well be right, but I would challenge you if you want to have an authoritative stance on whether someone belongs to God then you must first know God yourself. Then you will know better than to judge whether someone does belong to God, instead you will gently correct them where they have a fault because none of us are perfect and we all need correcting at times.

Realistically, you just drew a line in the sand and called me the antichrist if I don't believe what you believe. What a great message.

Ok, the line is right there in the sand. I didn't put it there. Do you support Christ or don't you?

 

[KCfromNC]

The only advice I can offer at this point is if it offends you that people assume you have an atheistic world view, then do not label yourself an atheist.

You do realize that the only thing atheistic world views have in common is that they don't include gods in the list of things they believe in? They can be liberal or conservative, religious or not, naturalist new age spiritualist, and any other combination you can think of.

Stereotyping people you've never met is only going to make you look ignorant. It's like you're blaming others because you're making stuff up about them. It's bascially the same as ranting about how Jews secretly rule the financial system and then if anyone questions you responding with :

The only advice I can offer at this point is if it offends you that people assume you have a Jewish world view, then do not label yourself a Jew.

Ask yourself why this kind of prejudice is OK towards other groups if it looks a bit crazy in my hypothetical example.

 

[JGG]

It's not really so simple, atheism is obviously as much a label for an inherent nature as male is for a man. The root problem is that JGG has a set of beliefs which cause him to be offended when he hears the beliefs of a Christian.

No, that's not it at all! I'm more than happy to talk about Christian beliefs if that's what you want. Just don't expect me to roll over and just agree with everything you say. I'm not offended by talking about Christian beliefs per se. What offends me is when Christians assume to speak for me as though they know who I am, or know why I don't share their. It offends me that people think they know all about me and my world view because I'm different from them. It offends me when people tell me that I don't believe what they believe because I want to live a sinful lifestyle. None of this is true. If anything, I am among that group that you should know you can't speak for.

All it comes down to is that I am skeptical. And I'm perfectly justified in being skeptical. We are all skeptical most of the time. When you delete that email from a Saudi Prince offering you money, you're skeptical. When tell yourself that politician is probably lying, you're skeptical. When you hang up op the salesman offering you a new long-distance savings plan, you're skeptical. And you're right to be. So I'm offended when someone tells me this amazing story about Eden, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and everyone - that you have to admit is beyond fantastic - and when I'm skeptical about it, I'm condemned as a defective, dishonest, depressed, dispicable, demon-possessed, dullard. Instead of recognizing that the whole thing is a bit much for some people to swallow, you assume to know everything there is to know, and then judge me.

Christians will tell me that I have to believe in God on faith, and without any evidence, or even a definition. Then, when I say I don't have faith, they blame me, make excuses, and then call me the antichrist.

That is what offends me.

 

[oi_antz]

No, that's not it at all! I'm more than happy to talk about Christian beliefs if that's what you want. Just don't expect me to roll over and just agree with everything you say. I'm not offended by talking about Christian beliefs per se. What offends me is when Christians assume to speak for me as though they know who I am, or know why I don't share their. It offends me that people think they know all about me and my world view because I'm different from them. It offends me when people tell me that I don't believe what they believe because I want to live a sinful lifestyle. None of this is true. If anything, I am among that group that you should know you can't speak for.

All it comes down to is that I am skeptical. And I'm perfectly justified in being skeptical. We are all skeptical most of the time. When you delete that email from a Saudi Prince offering you money, you're skeptical. When tell yourself that politician is probably lying, you're skeptical. When you hang up op the salesman offering you a new long-distance savings plan, you're skeptical. And you're right to be. So I'm offended when someone tells me this amazing story about Eden, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and everyone - that you have to admit is beyond fantastic - and when I'm skeptical about it, I'm condemned as a defective, dishonest, depressed, dispicable, demon-possessed, dullard. Instead of recognizing that the whole thing is a bit much for some people to swallow, you assume to know everything there is to know, and then judge me.

Christians will tell me that I have to believe in God on faith, and without any evidence, or even a definition. Then, when I say I don't have faith, they blame me, make excuses, and then call me the antichrist.

That is what offends me.

LOL! It seems that nothing whatsoever a Christian says can possibly not offend you! Why is it that you disagreed with my statement that you are offended by Christian beliefs, but then went on to explain how much Christian beliefs actually DO offend you? Are you so sure that your so-called "skepticism" will actually benefit your search for truth??

I can tell you that all the problems you outlined in this message right here stem from the fact that you think you know better than God does, but obviously you are less than 80 years old while God the creator is older than time itself. So if you are really going to be honest in your search for truth, you'll just have to accept in the very first instance that you are wrong and God is right. Otherwise, good luck to you pursuing God with skepticism, I really don't feel that any amount of discussing the Bible will benefit your understanding while you have the attitude that what God says is unbelievable.

If, on the other hand, you really are prepared to venture on the journey of learning from the author of knowledge, then certainly begin with milk and work your way onto meat. Ever heard the expression "throw them in the deep end, they'll either sink or swim"? You must be careful not to over-estimate yourself and think that you can outright come up and understand everything God says. If a verse doesn't make sense to you, keep reading. God will only reveal truth to you as you are ready to receive it. And incidentally, the Bible is one of those books that answers a few questions but raises a few more, so there is no end to learning from God's wisdom.

 

[MacNeil, D.]

No, that's not it at all! I'm more than happy to talk about Christian beliefs if that's what you want. ...

Christians will tell me that I have to believe in God on faith, and without any evidence, or even a definition. Then, when I say I don't have faith, they blame me, make excuses, and then call me the antichrist.

That is what offends me.

I can honestly tell you that nothing imaginable would motivate me to talk or debate Christian beliefs with you, much less call you an antichrist. Maybe you're hanging around the wrong kinds of people.

 

[JGG]

Ok, the line is right there in the sand. I didn't put it there. Do you support Christ or don't you?

Let me try to sum everything up by answering this with basically what went through my head:


What does it mean to support Christ? Already we are dealing with very vague concepts, with plenty of interpretations.

What do we mean by "support?" Do I believe in Christ? Do I believe in His message? Do I believe in the message in it's entirety word for word, or the general message?

What do we mean by Christ? Jesus the person? Jesus the teacher? Christ the divine? Christ the son of God? Christ the messenger? Jesus the messenger? The concept of Christ? The concept of Jesus? Do we mean the message, or the actual person? Which Christ? Everyone seems to believe in a different one.

If you're asking whether I believe in Jesus the son of God, then I would probably say no, but it would depend on what we mean by "God." There are concepts of God that if I could make sense of them, would allow for a "son" of sorts. Do I believe in these concepts? Not really, I don't have any kind of grasp to understand them yet. But I did, would these qualify as supporting Christ? I can't say.

What does support actually mean? Believe in? Agree with the technical philosophies? Agree with the moral philosophies? Agree with the spiritual philosophies? Each one will get you a different response, none are particularly yes or no.

Do I believe in Jesus? What aspect? That he was divine? It would take a lot to convince me of that. That he had a moral code, and moral teachings that were pretty good overall? That wouldn't take much for me to believe. That a person named Jesus lived in and around that place and time period? I don't believe it firmly, but again, it wouldn't take much to convince me. That He was killed by crucifixion? Seems reasonable, but I wasn't there. Was Jesus the son of God? I don't know, it's pretty tough to believe, but again, how God is defined changes whether it is more or less believable. Was Jesus resurrected? That's a pretty tough one to accept.

If the question requires me to explain whether or not I believe in "God," there are ideas, and concepts which if applied I might be forced to say yes. However, it seems like this concept would be pretty far removed from what anyone who would ask such a question is referring to when they say "God." Typically, it's easier to just say "no, I don't" than to try to explain why that's such a difficult question to answer.

So now that you have a taste of how I approach these questions, what was the question again?

 

[oi_antz]

Let me try to sum everything up by answering this with basically what went through my head:


What does it mean to support Christ? Already we are dealing with very vague concepts, with plenty of interpretations.

What do we mean by "support?" Do I believe in Christ? Do I believe in His message? Do I believe in the message in it's entirety word for word, or the general message?

What do we mean by Christ? Jesus the person? Jesus the teacher? Christ the divine? Christ the son of God? Christ the messenger? Jesus the messenger? The concept of Christ? The concept of Jesus? Do we mean the message, or the actual person? Which Christ? Everyone seems to believe in a different one.

If you're asking whether I believe in Jesus the son of God, then I would probably say no, but it would depend on what we mean by "God." There are concepts of God that if I could make sense of them, would allow for a "son" of sorts. Do I believe in these concepts? Not really, I don't have any kind of grasp to understand them yet. But I did, would these qualify as supporting Christ? I can't say.

What does support actually mean? Believe in? Agree with the technical philosophies? Agree with the moral philosophies? Agree with the spiritual philosophies? Each one will get you a different response, none are particularly yes or no.

Do I believe in Jesus? What aspect? That he was divine? It would take a lot to convince me of that. That he had a moral code, and moral teachings that were pretty good overall? That wouldn't take much for me to believe. That a person named Jesus lived in and around that place and time period? I don't believe it firmly, but again, it wouldn't take much to convince me. That He was killed by crucifixion? Seems reasonable, but I wasn't there. Was Jesus the son of God? I don't know, it's pretty tough to believe, but again, how God is defined changes whether it is more or less believable. Was Jesus resurrected? That's a pretty tough one to accept.

If the question requires me to explain whether or not I believe in "God," there are ideas, and concepts which if applied I might be forced to say yes. However, it seems like this concept would be pretty far removed from what anyone who would ask such a question is referring to when they say "God." Typically, it's easier to just say "no, I don't" than to try to explain why that's such a difficult question to answer.

So now that you have a taste of how I approach these questions, what was the question again?

I thought you might ask a question like that. When discussing in a Christian context whether you support Christ, I think you know what the question means and the answer Jesus would expect you to give. You seem to be confused what "support" means, in terms of Christianity and Jesus, if you are asked "Is Jesus Christ the son of God, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings" you would either agree or disagree.

So, do you think this criteria is suitable enough that you can now make your decision whether you stand on the side with Jesus or the side without Him?

 

[JGG]

LOL! It seems that nothing whatsoever a Christian says can possibly not offend you! Why is it that you disagreed with my statement that you are offended by Christian beliefs, but then went on to explain how much Christian beliefs actually DO offend you?

You totally misunderstand. It isn't the beliefs that offend me. I do not cringe at mention of Jesus, or whimper away when you mention the parting of the Red Sea, or get angry when you talk about Adam & Eve (unless we're talking about creationism, and then I do get a little upset). What offends me is that Christians diminish me, or label me, or define my motives for me, simply because I don't believe what they believe.

Are you so sure that your so-called "skepticism" will actually benefit your search for truth??

No. But it works out for me far more often than blind faith does. Don't believe me? Next time you get an email saying you've won the European lottery, respond to it and do everything they tell you without question, and see how that turns out.

I can tell you that all the problems you outlined in this message right here stem from the fact that you think you know better than God does, but obviously you are less than 80 years old while God the creator is older than time itself.

No, I don't think that I know better than God. That would firstly require me to believe in God, or to believe that God does anything as mundane as "know." I also cannot fathom any way in which even the Christian God can be "older than time." Hopefully, this will make my skepticism a little clearer.

So if you are really going to be honest in your search for truth, you'll just have to accept in the very first instance that you are wrong and God is right.

Perhaps, but I also have to reject definitions of God where God "knows" or is "older than time" or even where God is "right" or "wrong." This is how I intend to be honest in my search for truth. I will very likely never find it, but at the same time I cannot accept things as true which do not make sense, or
are ambiguous, or even that I do not understand. To me that's neither honest, nor honestly seeking truth. That's what skepticism is.

Otherwise, good luck to you pursuing God with skepticism, I really don't feel that any amount of discussing the Bible will benefit your understanding while you have the attitude that what God says is unbelievable.

Again, I'm not pursuing God. If I happen to find God, then great. If not, maybe I find something else. On the other hand maybe I find nothing. It's okay, I actually enjoy looking. And no, discussing the Bible with me probably won't benefit my understanding. I simply cannot believe that the Bible is "what God says." I have a hard time believing in a God who "says" anything at all.

If, on the other hand, you really are prepared to venture on the journey of learning from the author of knowledge, then certainly begin with milk and work your way onto meat. Ever heard the expression "throw them in the deep end, they'll either sink or swim"? You must be careful not to over-estimate yourself and think that you can outright come up and understand everything God says. If a verse doesn't make sense to you, keep reading. God will only reveal truth to you as you are ready to receive it. And incidentally, the Bible is one of those books that answers a few questions but raises a few more, so there is no end to learning from God's wisdom.

Please try to understand me here. You yourself explained that I shouldn't trust, or accept what other people tell me about God. Yet, when you explain to me about the "author of knowledge" how the Bible is "one of those books that answers questions" or how "there is no end to learning from God's wisdom" you say it as though I should trust and accept what you tell me. Now either you can tell me to believe in you, but nobody else, or you can be prepared for the fact that I'm not likely to believe in your concept of God.

Do you understand my point?

 

[JGG]

I thought you might ask a question like that. When discussing in a Christian context whether you support Christ, I think you know what the question means and the answer Jesus would expect you to give. You seem to be confused what "support" means, in terms of Christianity and Jesus, if you are asked "Is Jesus Christ the son of God, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings" you would either agree or disagree.

Even in terms of the Christian point of view I don't know what the question means, so I don't know what you mean. But it requires me to beleive Christian point of view. what does son of God mean? Lord of Lords? King of Kings? These mean nothing to me. How does that help?

So, do you think this criteria is suitable enough that you can now make your decision whether you stand on the side with Jesus or the side without Him?

of course not, I still don't understand the question as you understand it, or the concepts involved as you understand them.

 

[oi_antz]

You totally misunderstand. It isn't the beliefs that offend me. I do not cringe at mention of Jesus, or whimper away when you mention the parting of the Red Sea, or get angry when you talk about Adam & Eve (unless we're talking about creationism, and then I do get a little upset). What offends me is that Christians diminish me, or label me, or define my motives for me, simply because I don't believe what they believe.



No. But it works out for me far more often than blind faith does. Don't believe me? Next time you get an email saying you've won the European lottery, respond to it and do everything they tell you without question, and see how that turns out.



No, I don't think that I know better than God. That would firstly require me to believe in God, or to believe that God does anything as mundane as "know." I also cannot fathom any way in which even the Christian God can be "older than time." Hopefully, this will make my skepticism a little clearer.



Perhaps, but I also have to reject definitions of God where God "knows" or is "older than time" or even where God is "right" or "wrong." This is how I intend to be honest in my search for truth. I will very likely never find it, but at the same time I cannot accept things as true which do not make sense, or
are ambiguous, or even that I do not understand. To me that's neither honest, nor honestly seeking truth. That's what skepticism is.



Again, I'm not pursuing God. If I happen to find God, then great. If not, maybe I find something else. On the other hand maybe I find nothing. It's okay, I actually enjoy looking. And no, discussing the Bible with me probably won't benefit my understanding. I simply cannot believe that the Bible is "what God says." I have a hard time believing in a God who "says" anything at all.



Please try to understand me here. You yourself explained that I shouldn't trust, or accept what other people tell me about God. Yet, when you explain to me about the "author of knowledge" how the Bible is "one of those books that answers questions" or how "there is no end to learning from God's wisdom" you say it as though I should trust and accept what you tell me. Now either you can tell me to believe in you, but nobody else, or you can be prepared for the fact that I'm not likely to believe in your concept of God.

Do you understand my point?

I'm getting a clearer idea, yes, and it is becoming apparent that evangelism is not what you require. There are a few things I want to respond to here though, and then I must wrap up because I don't like to waste time on debate.

or you can be prepared for the fact that I'm not likely to believe in your concept of God.

Yes, I am prepared for that, it is no skin off my nose. Clearly you are making the decision that you are not interested in discovering God, so my interest in the matter diminishes right there.

(unless we're talking about creationism, and then I do get a little upset).

I don't understand why ascribing worship to God as the creator would upset you unless you had some motive to deny the existence of God.

I also cannot fathom any way in which even the Christian God can be "older than time." Hopefully, this will make my skepticism a little clearer.

This is probably due to me having used the wrong word. What I should have said is "older than the universe". It's quite interesting that the wrong word used the right way can have enormous consequences, yet it is not a problem that our perfect God has encountered with the Bible.. doesn't that fascinate you as much as it fascinates me?

at the same time I cannot accept things as true which do not make sense, or
are ambiguous, or even that I do not understand.

Regarding the Bible, this is due to having a lack of information. You can't actually know everything there is to know by reading the Bible once, twice or thrice. Even after a whole lifetime you will still be discovering how it all comes together, and even after death there will probably be no point of climax where we suddenly have equal knowledge to God, so it is my personal belief that learning from God goes on forever.

I have a hard time believing in a God who "says" anything at all.

I feel quite sad about that. Jesus really did say some of the most profound truth anyone has said while under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Now either you can tell me to believe in you, but nobody else

Lord forbid that I would live to say such a thing. I hope it is apparent to you that all through this conversation I have been deferring to the Bible that you would believe only what God has chosen to tell us through His prophets, son and apostles. In other words, what I have been saying is Jesus is the teacher you ought look to, and I have been attempting to say this in every way possible in response to your comments.

what does son of God mean? Lord of Lords? King of Kings? These mean nothing to me. How does that help?

Interesting, these are quite rudimentary concepts. God being the creator of existence, which you deny. Lord of Lords being the one who any Lord will acknowledge as their Lord. King of Kings being the one who any King will acknowledge as their King. Of course, the belief that Jesus deserves these titles is quite dependent on faith at this stage, which is the defining factor distinguishing those who support Jesus from those who don't.

of course not, I still don't understand the question as you understand it, or the concepts involved as you understand them.

I do have to wonder whether this is due to anything that the Bible says, that God is to blame for your lack of understanding of who He is, or whether it is due to some external factor which is probably not God's fault but due to the workings of one of His enemies.. I guess time will tell.

Well, I wish you all the best with your pursuit of knowledge, if you have any questions about my understanding of Christianity I am most happy to share it with you, but as I said I don't like to engage in debate for the sake of debate or discussion for the sake of discussion unless it is beneficial to either party's understanding of God and I don't feel that our continued discussion will be one that achieves such a result. So, thank you for engaging me over the last few weeks, it certainly has been a pleasure to talk with you and perhaps in the near future I'll see another opportunity to discuss Jesus with you. God bless

 

[sb81]

You do realize that the only thing atheistic world views have in common is that they don't include gods in the list of things they believe in? They can be liberal or conservative, religious or not, naturalist new age spiritualist, and any other combination you can think of.

Yes, I believe we are all aware that when you label yourself Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, etc, you are accepting a base default worldview. Obviously parameters in individual worldviews can vary greatly.

Not believing in a Creator comes with many implications and default positions; and although I did not claim to know every last detail of JGG's worldview, I am sorry if I somehow gave that impression.

Stereotyping people you've never met is only going to make you look ignorant. It's like you're blaming others because you're making stuff up about them.

I'm sorry you misunderstood what I was saying. Perhaps this statement could also apply to yourself if you were not so quick to judge me after making a simple statement. Again, there are default beliefs that make an atheist an atheist. You mentioned it in this very post.

It's bascially the same as ranting about how Jews secretly rule the financial system and then if anyone questions you responding with :

The only advice I can offer at this point is if it offends you that people assume you have a Jewish world view, then do not label yourself a Jew.

"Jews secretly rule the financial system" has nothing to do with worldviews.

Ask yourself why this kind of prejudice is OK towards other groups if it looks a bit crazy in my hypothetical example.

I meant no such "prejudice" in my post. As you have alluded to, there are shared beliefs in the atheistic worldview which is what I was basing my post off of.

What offends me is when Christians assume to speak for me as though they know who I am, or know why I don't share their. It offends me that people think they know all about me and my world view because I'm different from them. It offends me when people tell me that I don't believe what they believe because I want to live a sinful lifestyle. None of this is true. If anything, I am among that group that you should know you can't speak for.

I only know what information you have offered. You claim to be an atheist, which means you do not believe any gods exist. This is the information I based my post on.

 

[JGG]

Well, I wish you all the best with your pursuit of knowledge, if you have any questions about my understanding of Christianity I am most happy to share it with you, but as I said I don't like to engage in debate for the sake of debate or discussion for the sake of discussion unless it is beneficial to either party's understanding of God and I don't feel that our continued discussion will be one that achieves such a result. So, thank you for engaging me over the last few weeks, it certainly has been a pleasure to talk with you and perhaps in the near future I'll see another opportunity to discuss Jesus with you. God bless

Many thanks oi, and especially for being patient with me. I wish you all the best.

J.