Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

[ThomasDa]

Easy way out (esp if u didnt read it . . . or take the time to respond as I did to you . . . guess ur trolling)

I can't respond to "nothing."
You have no foundation to build on. You have no idea what God's plan for the salvation of man is or the steps along its way.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I can't respond to "nothing."
You have no foundation to build on. You have no idea what God's plan for the salvation of man is or the steps along its way.

Bare assertion fallacy . . . please tell me you have something more than this

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Bare assertion fallacy . . . please tell me you have something more than this

actually, his response is generous . he told you what he wanted you to do so that the conversation could continue . i kinda did that earlier also .

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

1 John 4:10 (KJV)Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
It's this simple... The difference between the 2 conviction's! 1 Being that of the Conviction of being the elect of God,because He Personally Knew me in His Own Mind, therefore He Chose Himself before the foundation of His world to bring about my existance and creation in the Personal path{because He Is my personal Saviour&because He Is a Personal God} of His Own Will for me that He Personally Ordained & Authorized & marked out for me in the Living,and Currently Active In The Realm
of His Own Holy Spirit, Who Personally Lives Eternal & Forever In The Personal Body of His Own Being, Which Is The Eternal and Everlasting Realm Of Christ Jesus, Who Is HimSelf my True "Actual" Lord and Saviour, Who Is "Currently" and "Actually" Now Pesonally Himself Living within me By His Personal and Own Holy Spirit, Who Is Truly and Actually{Who He Say's By His Own Word, His Own Self to Be}abiding within me His Very Own Self As "Christ In Me The Hope of Glory" and Who Is HimSelf
Really & Truly Now Living inside me and Who is Currently my Own Personal "Saviour" As He Himself Promises me To Be!!! Who Is Also as He Promises His Own Self:"That He Who Is In me",Is Also Currenlty The One Who Is Forever Perfectly One In , and With The Current Flow Eternal and Perpetually Moving HimSelf in Perfect Accordance of His Own Spirit and Being In The Motion Of His Will that He Has Decreed - Himself To Be For me, That He Is "Greater than he who is of this world," And The Eternal Personal "Author,and Finisher of my Faith, Personally, AMEN !!! These Are the beliefs of The Spirit , and are Holy Spiritual!!!,

The opposite, and contrary belief of those who believe in their own "freewill's" is wholly "natural" and see's it's self through every "religion" known to man,even "Atheist" believe in their "own freewill"!!! it is no "belief" that has a "SuperNatural" Origin that is of a Higher Power Wholly Objective and Absolutely Outside of and Wholly Independent of myself!!! Which is Faith in GOD"S GRACE THAT IS WHOLLY AND SUPERNATURALLY BEGOTTEN OF CHRIST JESUS'S HOLY SPIRIT , SUPERNATURALLY OPERATING THAT FAITH WITHIN ME, AMEN!!!

 

[Der Alte]

1 John 4:10 (KJV)Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
It's this simple... The difference between the 2 conviction's! 1 Being that of the Conviction of being the elect of God,because He Personally Knew me in His Own Mind, therefore He Chose Himself before the foundation of His world to bring about my existance and creation in the Personal path{because He Is my personal Saviour&because He Is a Personal God} of His Own Will for me that He Personally Ordained & Authorized & marked out for me in the Living,and Currently Active In The Realm
of His Own Holy Spirit, Who Personally Lives Eternal & Forever In The Personal Body of His Own Being, Which Is The Eternal and Everlasting Realm Of Christ Jesus, Who Is HimSelf my True "Actual" Lord and Saviour, Who Is "Currently" and "Actually" Now Pesonally Himself Living within me By His Personal and Own Holy Spirit, Who Is Truly and Actually{Who He Say's By His Own Word, His Own Self to Be}abiding within me His Very Own Self As "Christ In Me The Hope of Glory" and Who Is HimSelf
Really & Truly Now Living inside me and Who is Currently my Own Personal "Saviour" As He Himself Promises me To Be!!! Who Is Also as He Promises His Own Self:"That He Who Is In me",Is Also Currenlty The One Who Is Forever Perfectly One In , and With The Current Flow Eternal and Perpetually Moving HimSelf in Perfect Accordance of His Own Spirit and Being In The Motion Of His Will that He Has Decreed - Himself To Be For me, That He Is "Greater than he who is of this world," And The Eternal Personal "Author,and Finisher of my Faith, Personally, AMEN !!! These Are the beliefs of The Spirit , and are Holy Spiritual!!!,

The opposite, and contrary belief of those who believe in their own "freewill's" is wholly "natural" and see's it's self through every "religion" known to man,even "Atheist" believe in their "own freewill"!!! it is no "belief" that has a "SuperNatural" Origin that is of a Higher Power Wholly Objective and Absolutely Outside of and Wholly Independent of myself!!! Which is Faith in GOD"S GRACE THAT IS WHOLLY AND SUPERNATURALLY BEGOTTEN OF CHRIST JESUS'S HOLY SPIRIT , SUPERNATURALLY OPERATING THAT FAITH WITHIN ME, AMEN!!

Please see my discussion of Jeremiah 13:1-14 at this Link

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

so what are you trying to say,if your a proponent of freewill, do you think that i would "insanely" believe in a concept of a lesser god,and far lower degree and understanding that GOD Has Gracsiously Revealed to my soul, i can only pray that He will reveal it to you! But turn from a Supernatural Revelation of GOD's Spirit,and believe in a common "Delusion" in the mind's of those "religious",and non religious! "Impossible", Shalom!!

 

[Philothei]

for "draws" (elkuo) is a word used for drag

Now you have to clasify that 'dragging' though...hmmm...is it like forceful pull that you cannot say no to? Or more like a nudging tag? We cannot determine what this pull is like thus we cannot insist that God indeed "pulls us in" as pull does not mean that we indeed get pulled all the way to God... I can pull someone as much as I like but if he does not want to be pulled he can still remain untouched....and deny the "pull" and also the pull does not have to be strong enough so I get him in unwillingly.... If God decides to pull you in and then it happens then He would not even need to pull ...would He? I mean he can just say the word and bang...we are in.

I beleive it is like that...We get pulled we let go and let God pulls us all the way... Mostly like what happened to Jonash....God chased him around for a long time and the Jonah let God "pulled him" to become his prophet.

 

[Der Alte]

so what are you trying to say,if your a proponent of freewill, do you think that i would "insanely" believe in a concept of a lesser god,and far lower degree and understanding that GOD Has Gracsiously Revealed to my soul, i can only pray that He will reveal it to you! But turn from a Supernatural Revelation of GOD's Spirit,and believe in a common "Delusion" in the mind's of those "religious",and non religious! "Impossible", Shalom!!

If you are talking to me, I said nothing about you believing anything. I linked to a post which quotes Jeremiah 13:1-14, the definition of a key word in the passage, and the parsing information for that word as used in Jeremiah. If you are afraid to read that passage and examine it without assumptions/presuppositions that ain't my problem. But since you won't go to the post I will bring the post to you. Nobody has ever addressed this passage and discussed how it refutes Calvinism.

When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.

Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.

But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of predestination, God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
[size=-1]• • •​

14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Here is the definition of the word translated "I have caused." It is in the perfect state. Hebrew does not have tenses, actions are either imperfect or perfect, completed, or not completed.

H1692 דבק dabaq daw-bak'
A primitive root; properly to impinge, that is, cling or adhere; figuratively to catch by pursuit: - abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

H8816 Perfect

The Perfect expresses a completed action.

1) In reference to time, such an action may be:

1a) one just completed from the standpoint of the present
- "I have come" to tell you the news

1b) one completed in the more or less distant past in the beginning God "created"
- "I was (once) young" and "I have (now) grown old" but
- "I have not seen" a righteous man forsaken

1c) one already completed from the point of view of another past act
- God saw everything that "he had made"

1d) one completed from the point of view of another action yet future
- I will draw for thy camels also until "they have done" drinking

2) The perfect is often used where the present is employed in English.

2a) in the case of general truths or actions of frequent occurrence--truths or actions which have been often experienced or observed
- the grass "withereth"
- the sparrow "findeth" a house

2b) an action or attitude of the past may be continued into the present
"I stretch out" my hands to thee
"thou never forsakest" those who seek thee

2c) the perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case emphasizes a condition which has come into "complete existence" and realization
- "I know" thou wilt be king
- "I hate" all workers of iniquity

2d) Sometimes in Hebrew, future events are conceived so vividly and so realistically that they are regarded as Having virtually taken place and are described by the perfect.

2d1) in promises, threats and language of contracts
- the field "give I" thee
- and if not, "I will take it"

2d2) prophetic language
- my people "is gone into captivity" (i.e. shall assuredly go).​

Shalom![/SIZE]

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

any man who lives under the burden of having to prove his self to God..that is: Prove to God that he loves him,and prove to God this, and "prove" to God that! that person is to be pittied above all people, and above all the most miserable soul's in this life!!! You see i believe in The Almighty GOD ElShaddia, and The Most High GOD EL ELyon = Possesser of Heaven and earth, Who's FootStool is the earth!!! Who Can't Be Isolated and traped behind the doors,and walls of some "building"...No Jesus Christ Put an End to That His OwnSelf In AD 70,just as He declared!!!
Matthew 24:1-2 (KJV) Mt 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:1-2 (KJV) Mk 1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:5-6 (KJV) Lk 5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
So typical,it's practically comical! Truly Soloman was right when he said:that there is nothing new under the sun" !! And as Paul declared:Acts 17:22-29 (KJV) Ac 22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

SeraphimsCherub

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Bro.. do you not know, and have you not heard! That God's Revelation of Himself is a Progressive Revelation from man's finate perspective! And the "The Mystery of His Will" that He proposed in Christ before the foundation of the world Such as predestination, and election, and all those wonderful Revelation's of God's Grace,were not Revealed until After Christ's death and resurrection such as follows:Luke 24:44-45 (KJV) Lk 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

and in the very same book of Jeremiah God say's this also!:Jeremiah 1:4-5 (KJV) Jer 4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ephesians 1:3-15 (KJV) Eph 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 (***To the praise of the glory of his {grace},***) wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, (***according to the riches of his grace;***) 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 (*******[Having made {known unto us}*******] (*******{the mystery of his will}*******), according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 (***In whom also*** {we}***{ have obtained}*** ****{an inheritance}****, (****{being predestinated}**** *****{according to the purpose}**** (****{of him}**** (((((****{who worketh all things}*****))))) ((((***{after the counsel}****)))) ((((****{of his own will:}****))))) 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 3:1-5 (KJV) Eph 1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Romans 16:24-27 (KJV) Ro 24The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:25-27 (KJV) Col 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Glory Be to God in The Highest!!! Evidence Irrefutable,and undeniable!!! Be Blessed!!!
i answered what you said no Calvinist ever has an answer for, Now you have an answer you cannot deny!!! It's Simple...believe in GOD and In Him Alone!!! All Glory Be To GOD((((((((((((Period))))))))))))))))))............................................

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

actually, his response is generous . he told you what he wanted you to do so that the conversation could continue . i kinda did that earlier also .

Actually it is not. I asked him to show me where the Bible connects predestination and "equal chance for salvation" . . . as a serious and honest question . . . and he basically brushed it off.

He made no attempts at putting ANYTHING out for real conversation, or I would have engaged it.

He came in, asserted something, in a snide way might I add, that was already answered, I responded with sarcasim and a real answer, to which he didnt even respond but put forth an assertion, I then tried to deal genuinely with the assertion and asked a serious question, he then italicized his response short and sweet with no real effort to really engage, to which I told him "easy way out," to which he says "cant respond to nothing, you have no foundation and no knowledge of God's work in salvation" a HUGE presumption to make and an even HUGER assertion to back, of which he doesnt.

No, he is either trolling or arrogant, or perhaps both. Either way, he is disengenuous . . . his actions dont portray someone really interested in conversation.

For you, there was a lot of kind of ethereal thinking and I was trying to boil it down to a main point, it seemed that it was "the issue detracts from one becoming spiritually mature" and you attributed it to a dichotomy . . . and I asked which and you said "pick" (? I think that was how it went?) . . . but I dont know which it was that caused you to say what you said! lol

So the ball is really in your court with that one . . . I can take a shot, the seeming dichotomy of freedom of will and predestination? (I think that is where the convo was?)

 

[sunlover1]

all noble thoughts. But what it God chooses people because he knows how they will respond prior to the encounter . . . and therefore elects those . . . and not others, so that those who are not elect, wouldnt be so ANYWAY in His perfect knowledge? WOuld that be an acceptable statement to you? After all, people are not chosen because of an arbitrariness in God, but are not chosen cause God knows they will reject Him anyway . . .

Is that what Calvinism believes?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Is that what Calvinism believes?

No. They would shun a concept like this because they think that it would lead to the basis of salvation being the work of the man . . . being that God chooses based on what He knows the man would do.

This fear is actually unwarranted if the concepts are lined right tho . . .

This is where I would disagree with some of my calvinistic brothers. BTW did u read that Word doc that I sent you?

My perspective, and I think it is the right one, is rooted in God's FIRST action of the cross. If God's first action is the basis for subsequent actions, then GOD is the ROOT and CAUSE and not man. If God chooses Christ FIRST and says, "yup, ur gonna die, and it will be to the end that I will wed these people to me in a way that cannot be had in any other way for my glory and their joy" . . . and then elects based on how He knows people will respond to the cross . . . then HE IS THE BASIS . . . and he places people in time and space based on this.

With this, God remains the author of salvation, salvation is based on HIM ALONE . . . not man . . . AND people's choices in the matter are considered. He doesnt harden people who would otherwise respond to Him, and all condemnation is just. He is neither arbitrary nor capricious and salvation belongs to Him. Predestination as the bible depicts it can be taken at face value (which would be the Calvinistic concept) . . . and mans freedom of choice can be as well.

The problem with calvin's predestination is that it doesnt go back far enough.

Evidences are
1. Jesus chosen to before the foundation of the world (meaning God planned for the fall)
2. The Gospel preached to Abraham
3. The Gospel being eternal
4. Justification being the same OT and NT (hence Paul speaks of Abraham as the EXAMPLE of NT justification before Jesus is even born)
5. The saved PREDESTINED to be vessels of MERCY (cross language, making mercy the PURPOSE that they are created, requiring the cross)

Read the doc I sent you

 

[sunlover1]

No. They would shun a concept like this because they think that it would lead to the basis of salvation being the work of the man . . . being that God chooses based on what He knows the man would do.

This fear is actually unwarranted if the concepts are lined right tho . . .

This is where I would disagree with some of my calvinistic brothers. BTW did u read that Word doc that I sent you?

My perspective, and I think it is the right one, is rooted in God's FIRST action of the cross. If God's first action is the basis for subsequent actions, then GOD is the ROOT and CAUSE and not man. If God chooses Christ FIRST and says, "yup, ur gonna die, and it will be to the end that I will wed these people to me in a way that cannot be had in any other way for my glory and their joy" . . . and then elects based on how He knows people will respond to the cross . . . then HE IS THE BASIS . . . and he places people in time and space based on this.

With this, God remains the author of salvation, salvation is based on HIM ALONE . . . not man . . . AND people's choices in the matter are considered. He doesnt harden people who would otherwise respond to Him, and all condemnation is just. He is neither arbitrary nor capricious and salvation belongs to Him. Predestination as the bible depicts it can be taken at face value (which would be the Calvinistic concept) . . . and mans freedom of choice can be as well.

The problem with calvin's predestination is that it doesnt go back far enough.

Evidences are
1. Jesus chosen to before the foundation of the world (meaning God planned for the fall)
2. The Gospel preached to Abraham
3. The Gospel being eternal
4. Justification being the same OT and NT (hence Paul speaks of Abraham as the EXAMPLE of NT justification before Jesus is even born)
5. The saved PREDESTINED to be vessels of MERCY (cross language, making mercy the PURPOSE that they are created, requiring the cross)

Read the doc I sent you

I think i did.. but I'll check because that was like 2 long days ago.
(reaches for the ginkgo biloba)

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I think i did.. but I'll check because that was like 2 long days ago.
(reaches for the ginkgo biloba)

Father bring balance and order to that which is not, for your glory and the name of your son Jesus, AMEN.







I would say go to the doctor . . . but in light of the conversation here :o

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No, he is either trolling or arrogant, or perhaps both. Either way, he is disengenuous . . . his actions dont portray someone really interested in conversation.

you seem to be quick to make that accusation .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

you seem to be quick to make that accusation .

Perhaps . . . (probably doesnt help that I have encountered the person before) . . . but it is not unwarranted.

If in the end, he shows different, I will be the first to apologize. But at the same time, I will not beat around the bush with him either, esp when I tried to be real with him.

 

[Der Alte]

Bro.. do you not know, and have you not heard! That God's Revelation of Himself is a Progressive Revelation from man's finate perspective! And the "The Mystery of His Will" that He proposed in Christ before the foundation of the world Such as predestination, and election, and all those wonderful Revelation's of God's Grace,were not Revealed until After Christ's death and resurrection such as follows:* * * Unreadable scripture spam omitted * * *
Glory Be to God in The Highest!!! Evidence Irrefutable,and undeniable!!! Be Blessed!!!
i answered what you said no Calvinist ever has an answer for, Now you have an answer you cannot deny!!! It's Simple...believe in GOD and In Him Alone!!! All Glory Be To GOD((((((((((((Period))))))))))))))))))............................................

Nothing you posted addresses Jeremiah 13:1-14! Nothing written in the NT can or does contradict anything in the OT!

 

[boswd]

Hi Mathetes the Kerux, unless I'm reading your post's wrong you seem to support the Calivinistic view of Predestination.

I know Pentacostals have histroically supported Free Will. I've noticed another Pentacostal on this board from down under who also seems to support a Calvinistic view as well.

Is there a Calvinist wave moving through Pentacostal Church's or is this just your own personal opinion which just may not line up entirely with your Church.

Thanks

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Mathetes the Kerux, unless I'm reading your post's wrong you seem to support the Calivinistic view of Predestination.

I know Pentacostals have histroically supported Free Will. I've noticed another Pentacostal on this board from down under who also seems to support a Calvinistic view as well.

Is there a Calvinist wave moving through Pentacostal Church's or is this just your own personal opinion which just may not line up entirely with your Church.

Thanks

No, this would probably not line with my church.

I am theologically pentecostal, I believe the two main tenets that make one theologically pentecostal

1. Spirit baptism as subsequent from salvation
2. Tongues as the initial physical evidence of 1

I dont hold to pre trib rapture either (another classically pentecostal held position) . . . but I am premillenial (with a mil leanings) . . .

But my soteriology is VERY Calvinist*ic* (or calvin like) . . . I am not a 5 pt'r . . . if there were seven points (as John Piper states) then I would be 5 . . . but I cannot reconcile Heb 6 and Heb 10 with irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints.

But I am still working on these and how they fit into what God is showing me.

There are a great many charismatics who hold the same that I do . . .

I keep the pentecostal icon tho because of my stance on the two aforementioned items and that I am currently in an AG church.

So I am pentecostal in practice . . . lots of the gifts of the Spirit and exhuberant worship . . . and in pneumatology . . . but I am reformed (pretty much) in my soteriology.

does this suffice?