Reason to believe

[Upisoft]

Can you show me the verse that says Lucifer was 100% loyal to God? I haven't read that, cheers.

Ezekiel 28:15

 

[Upisoft]

FALSE. Who is it that takes a little truth, and uses it to undermine Faith? And why are you in league with that effort?

What is false and what is little truth. Explain. And what do you know about my effort?

You know some. Why do you overlook what is clearly known of the fall?

What is clearly known and has nothing more to be asked about?

And what is this? "earnest of our inheritance"

What about it?

Is it something that can be understood intellectually and debated, or does it remain relatively meaningless until it's experienced? And how does it replace your "conjecture" accusation?

What is the connection of all these questions regarding the inability of someone to explain to me what was the first cause that led to the fall of Satan and why it will no longer be viable force in the future?

 

[oi_antz]

Ezekiel 28:15

Satan refused to humble himself to God even after being warned and punished, and so far has not been capable of repenting so as the story tells us in the end he will not be allowed to continue in his rebellion. Christians on the other hand have experienced the necessary extent of pride against God to know it has severe consequences, and through repentance, offered to humble themselves to God and entered a lifelong contract that with His supervision and the guidance of the Holy Spirit we may never trespass Him again. The crucial difference to note is that Satan hasn't overcome his preference for sin, while Christians have. Understand it from me if you haven't yet experienced the Holy Spirit, when you are tempted to sin and the Holy Spirit warns you to stop, if you have truly suffered and understood the consequences of sin, you will not disobey! You can't fully compare angels to humans, but you can see similarities in their character. The main difference from what I perceive is that angels can't deny God's existence whereas humans can. This means that we have a certain type of faith which the angels don't have, which contributes to our loyalty when we do commit to God.

 

[Upisoft]

Satan refused to humble himself to God even after being warned and punished, and so far has not been capable of repenting so as the story tells us in the end he will not be allowed to continue in his rebellion.

It is already written that "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
The fate of Satan is sealed, you can't expect him to repent. Would you repent if you were offered the same instead of paradise?

The crucial difference to note is that Satan hasn't overcome his preference for sin, while Christians have. Understand it from me if you haven't yet experienced the Holy Spirit, when you are tempted to sin and the Holy Spirit warns you to stop, if you have truly suffered and understood the consequences of sin, you will not disobey! You can't fully compare angels to humans, but you can see similarities in their character. The main difference from what I perceive is that angels can't deny God's existence whereas humans can. This means that we have a certain type of faith which the angels don't have, which contributes to our loyalty when we do commit to God.

That sounds logical until the moment you get into paradise and at this point your similarities with angels will grow. So you will be no longer able to deny God's existence. Does that mean the faith you are talking about will vanish?

 

[razeontherock]

Back up a minute here:

Satan refused to humble himself to God even after being warned and punished, and so far has not been capable of repenting so

Angels = unable to repent. Esau couldn't either, though he sought it with tears. (Hebrews 12:17) Let's not take repentance for granted!

What we're talking about here is a change of the will. The OP has honed in on lucifer's change of will that defied God, and defies the understanding of most, and truly some of it is intentionally left as a mystery, telling us not to take this lightly since we may not be able to change our will back.

Antz shows a beautiful repentance!

 

[razeontherock]

What is false

What is the connection of all these questions regarding the inability of someone to explain to me what was the first cause that led to the fall of Satan and why it will no longer be viable force in the future?

My post on the previous page you responded to had all this in context. Go back and actually respond and we'll get somewhere. Your accusation of "inability" is mere assumption, and false.

 

[oi_antz]

It is already written that "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
The fate of Satan is sealed, you can't expect him to repent. Would you repent if you were offered the same instead of paradise?

I know it's not Biblical, but originating from Jewish mythology I suspect the following story would have something to show us about the capacity for angels to either repent or be remorseful, and God's capacity to forgive them in that case:

Archangel Gabriel

God became annoyed with Israel and ordered the Archangel Gabriel to kill all the Jews by pouring burning coals onto them. Any survivors were to be killed by the Babylonians.

Gabriel felt sorry for the Israelites and asked the laziest angel in Heaven to pass the burning coals to him. This angel was so slow that the coals were almost cold when Gabriel threw them at Israel.

Gabriel then convinced the Babylonians that it was better to force the Jews into Babylon than it was to kill them.

God was furious at this action and demoted Gabriel from his position as “chief minister” in Heaven, replacing him with Dubbiel. Dubbiel wasted no time in helping the Persian people at the expense of every other country.

Twenty-one days later, when God was having a meeting with his leading angels, Gabriel popped his head into the room and made an astute comment (it doesn’t say what the comment was but I would sure like to know). God was thrilled with this and immediately restored Gabriel to his former position.

That sounds logical until the moment you get into paradise and at this point your similarities with angels will grow. So you will be no longer able to deny God's existence. Does that mean the faith you are talking about will vanish?

In fact, when you accept Jesus into your life, you are unable to deny God's existence. Does this mean that your faith diminishes? Certainly not! Because the advantage we have over angels, is they have begun with perfection and they must abstain from imperfection, whereas we have come from imperfection and must strive for perfection. I guess if you have concerns about whether you are capable of being loyal to God, you must have some idea of the types of temptation you face in contrast? Our responsibility to ourselves for the betterment of ourselves and greater society, is to overcome temptation so that we may exhibit the nature of Christ to our fullest extent. Also, did you read Philippians 3? At the end of that chapter it mentions that there is hope that our bodies will be transformed into the likeness of Christ, therefore being fully resistant to sin. In the meantime we live with the cards we've been dealt, doing our best to make good of a less than perfect situation, and drawing upon the power of the Holy Spirit and past lessons learnt.

 

[oi_antz]

Esau couldn't either, though he sought it with tears. (Hebrews 12:17) Let's not take repentance for granted!

Yes, well I have truly been blessed in that while I rebelled against God's commands in my youth and demonstrated such pride to think it was ok to walk away from Him and do things my way, when it came to the crunch and I came head-to-head with God at the most pivotal point in my life where I would either harden my heart forever or come back to Him, He gave me the one sacred chance to repent and it wasn't hard to make the more sensible decision. The demons didn't like it though and they attacked me ferociously, yet Jesus has delivered me from that. God is the most merciful, generous, loving father putting anyone else to shame, and I certainly owe Him my life of eternal gratitude for what He has done for me. Agreed whole-heartedly Ray, it is not easy to repent at all, especially if you have committed yourself to condemnation. But once you get a taste for the benefits of honoring God, it certainly does become the preferred choice.

 

[Upisoft]

"Go back and actually respond..." OK. Let's see if that will be any more fruitful.

FALSE.

You forgot bold, italic and underline. And probably bigger font. If this is the way to express your "reason" then you shouldn't omit any.

Who is it that takes a little truth, and uses it to undermine Faith?

I don't know. Conjecture: maybe politics?

And why are you in league with that effort?

Ah, italic... I'm not in a league with any italic.

You know some. Why do you overlook what is clearly known of the fall?

I know none. I only know what you (people here) told me you know. I'm only disusing your faith to find if there is any reason to do so. If I knew something certain about the fall then I would be a believer. I'm not. Work with logic a little. (Or bold font for a change).

And what is this? "earnest of our inheritance"

I don't know what is this.

Is it something that can be understood intellectually and debated, or does it remain relatively meaningless until it's experienced? And how does it replace your "conjecture" accusation?

I accused no one. Mcygee himself said that he does not know and probably he will never know. If you don't know and make a statement on or believe in what you don't know, it is necessarily conjecture. If you know what Mcygee does not know, then my statement is not valid for you. But then, please, tell me what you know, don't tell me only "FALSE".

My post on the previous page you responded to had all this in context. Go back and actually respond and we'll get somewhere. Your accusation of "inability" is mere assumption, and false.

Now I have accused someone of inability... You have to excuse me as I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Upisoft]

I know it's not Biblical, but originating from Jewish mythology I suspect the following story would have something to show us about the capacity for angels to either repent or be remorseful, and God's capacity to forgive them in that case:

If Jesus has said: "Believe in Jewish mythology" maybe you would be correct.

In fact, when you accept Jesus into your life, you are unable to deny God's existence.

Quite not true. There are Christians who stop believing. It requires only a short look in the "Depression" forums to see how some doubt His love, etc.

Does this mean that your faith diminishes?

I don't know. You gave the example of angels that have less faith, because they are unable to deny God. Thus my question.

Certainly not! Because the advantage we have over angels, is they have begun with perfection and they must abstain from imperfection, whereas we have come from imperfection and must strive for perfection.

And also abstain from further imperfection as you forgot to mention. So, we have more to do.

I guess if you have concerns about whether you are capable of being loyal to God, you must have some idea of the types of temptation you face in contrast? Our responsibility to ourselves for the betterment of ourselves and greater society, is to overcome temptation so that we may exhibit the nature of Christ to our fullest extent. Also, did you read Philippians 3? At the end of that chapter it mentions that there is hope that our bodies will be transformed into the likeness of Christ, therefore being fully resistant to sin. In the meantime we live with the cards we've been dealt, doing our best to make good of a less than perfect situation, and drawing upon the power of the Holy Spirit and past lessons learnt.

I doubt the reason why Jesus did not sin was His body. You already told me that our thoughts originate from the spiritual realm, not from our body. Thus your conclusion seems not logical.

 

[oi_antz]

If Jesus has said: "Believe in Jewish mythology" maybe you would be correct.

Well, I believe in the Holy Spirit to be the one who enlightens us, and He can speak truth to us from any source of influence, from Jewish folklore to Secular music to the Simpsons. The important thing is to make the right decision as to what to believe.

Quite not true. There are Christians who stop believing. It requires only a short look in the "Depression" forums to see how some doubt His love, etc.

Have any of those who struggle with demons actually overcome them? I know how persistent demons are, I don't diminish those who struggle with them, but if you are attacked by them you definitely do have to make a once-in-a-lifetime commitment and decision whose side you belong to. It's never easy to defeat a demon, but again it comes down to you and what you want from life. Don't presume I haven't struggled with demons who attacked me with depression, psychosis and thoughts of suicide, I certainly have been there and done that, nothing compares to the promise Jesus has for those who will overcome: Revelations 2:7 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

I don't know. You gave the example of angels that have less faith, because they are unable to deny God. Thus my question.

Then don't believe me! I'm only human, you can't get inside my mind and I can't get inside yours! The only person to trust is Jesus Christ, who is very much alive and real, if you will only believe and approach Him He will deliver you from ALL evil!

And also abstain from further imperfection as you forgot to mention. So, we have more to do.

I don't think there will ever come a time when sin isn't a temptation, but certainly with practice sin becomes less of a temptation and easier to overcome..

I doubt the reason why Jesus did not sin was His body. You already told me that our thoughts originate from the spiritual realm, not from our body. Thus your conclusion seems not logical.

I think it was Ih8s8tn that told you that, I am inclined to think that the thoughts originate in our mind and reach out to the spiritual realm, in that way we can seek affirmation or influence from either holy or unholy spirits, but it IMO it is always our mind which initiates the thought, and the thoughts come from the spiritual realm depending upon who we approach. Jesus teaches us not to encourage the works of the demons, but to always honor the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Upisoft: As far as your question regarding the "first cause" of Satan's fall is concerned, I believe that the answer is found in the following true Proverb:

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18)

Assuming for a moment that Satan was the "covering cherub" spoken of in Ezekiel chapter 28, that would mean that he pretty much had the second most exalted position in the universe behind the Godhead. This, apparently, wasn't good enough. We can see many examples of Satan's desire to be worshipped as "God" in scripture, but probably none more clearly than in the following temptation of Jesus:

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth hm, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." (Matthew 4:8-11)

I find it interesting to note that after Satan's temptation was rejected by Jesus, angels came and ministered to Jesus. You see, this is the very purpose for which angels were originally created...to minister. For example, we read:

"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire..." (Psalm 104:4)

Such a passage of scripture was clearly in the mind of the writer of the New Testament epistle to the Hebrews when he wrote:

"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." (Hebrews 2:7)

And, again:

"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14)

Satan, whose very name means "adversary"...

Online Etymology Dictionary

Satan

proper name of the supreme evil spirit in Christianity, O.E. Satan, from L.L. Satan (in Vulgate, in O.T. only), from Gk. Satanas, from Heb. satan "adversary, one who plots against another," from satan "to show enmity to, oppose, plot against," from root s-t-n "one who opposes, obstructs, or acts as an adversary." In Septuagint (Gk.) usually translated as diabolos "slanderer," lit. "one who throws (something) across" the path of another (see devil), though epiboulos "plotter" is used once.

...obviously has a problem where "ministering" is concerned. With such being the case, let's briefly contrast Satan's mindset with that of Christ's and of those who truly follow Him (Christ).

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

Here, we see Jesus, the very Creator of heaven, earth AND ANGELS, willfully humbling Himself AS A SERVANT, even to the point of the death of the cross. Jesus said:

"And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." (Mark 9:33-35)

The "first" shall be "last of all, and servant of all". A little later on, after that James' and John's mother had pleaded with Jesus that her two sons might sit on the right and left hand of Jesus in His coming kingdom, we read:

"And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:41-45)

I trust, also, that you're already familiar with the account of Jesus washing the disciples' feet at the Last Supper and the inherent teaching involved, so I won't bother to post that account now. My point? Simply this:

Those who truly belong to God will lay down their lives FOR OTHERS and seek to minister TO OTHERS. I'm reminded of a handmade sign that I once saw as I was driving through Pennsylvania that read:

Jesus
Others
You

For many, sad to say, far from being "JOY", that's a recipe for misery. Satan (and the angels who fell with him), who was originally created to minister to others, apparently chose otherwise. Far from "ministering to those who shall be heirs of salvation", he greatly opposes such at every possible turn. Anyhow, PRIDE, or a LIFTING UP OF ONE'S SELF, is, I would suggest to you, the "first cause" that you claim to be looking for. For those who would be saved, such things need to be heartily dealt with. Jesus said:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 16:24-25)

To truly follow Christ, one must be willing to DENY HIMSELF and to take up his cross. The taking up of one's cross signifies that one would be willing to deny himself/herself and follow Christ to the point of even suffering crucifixion at the hands of a wicked world for his/her steadfast obedience to Christ and His gospel. This world is heavily under the influence of "the god of this world" (II Corinthians 4:4), Satan, and consequently suffers greatly under the influence of PRIDE.

Anyhow, that's all that I presently have time for. Due to a problem with toxic mold in our home, my wife, children and I had to abandon our home about 2 1/2 months ago and we've been living in rentals since then as we look for a new home to purchase. With such being the case, I've literally moved from one rental to another every week for about the last 10 weeks. In fact, I have to move again later on today. I've read your questions/comments on this thread and, when I have more time (who knows when that will be), I will do my best to address them. I'm sorry for the delay, but it's really out of my hands. I trust that you understand. Take care.

 

[Upisoft]

Well, I believe in the Holy Spirit to be the one who enlightens us, and He can speak truth to us from any source of influence, from Jewish folklore to Secular music to the Simpsons. The important thing is to make the right decision as to what to believe.

I fail to see how you may possibly know who is enlightening you. If you happen to get a message that tells you to kill someone will you obey?

Have any of those who struggle with demons actually overcome them? I know how persistent demons are, I don't diminish those who struggle with them, but if you are attacked by them you definitely do have to make a once-in-a-lifetime commitment and decision whose side you belong to.

There is no problem with choosing side. If sides exist I'm sticking with the good guys. The problem is with identification of who are the good guys(if there are any).

It's never easy to defeat a demon, but again it comes down to you and what you want from life. Don't presume I haven't struggled with demons who attacked me with depression, psychosis and thoughts of suicide, I certainly have been there and done that

How do you distinguish between depression, psychosis and thoughts of suicide caused by demons and genuine conditions of the same kind?

Then don't believe me!

I'm tempted to do so, but I'll remain neutral until I collect enough pros and cons.

I think it was Ih8s8tn that told you that, I am inclined to think that the thoughts originate in our mind and reach out to the spiritual realm, in that way we can seek affirmation or influence from either holy or unholy spirits, but it IMO it is always our mind which initiates the thought, and the thoughts come from the spiritual realm depending upon who we approach. Jesus teaches us not to encourage the works of the demons, but to always honor the Holy Spirit.

You are right, it was Ih8s8n. Sorry about that. It was a long thread and I'm trying to keep up with so much new ideas, so I'm starting to forget the sources.

So, you believe we can shut down spiritual influence and basically start to think for ourselves, right?

 

[Upisoft]

Anyhow, that's all that I presently have time for. Due to a problem with toxic mold in our home, my wife, children and I had to abandon our home about 2 1/2 months ago and we've been living in rentals since then as we look for a new home to purchase. With such being the case, I've literally moved from one rental to another every week for about the last 10 weeks. In fact, I have to move again later on today. I've read your questions/comments on this thread and, when I have more time (who knows when that will be), I will do my best to address them. I'm sorry for the delay, but it's really out of my hands. I trust that you understand. Take care.

It's OK. I'll put this thread on hold. This will give me some time to read more from the Bible. Currently I'm having a lot of fun with bargaining abilities of jews. Especially the deal Jacob is willing to make with God in Genesis 28:22 - "I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."

 

[Ih8s8n]

I lead you 2:0 and counting as I'm reading it for 3rd time. I can tell you I find it extremely boring, especially the parts that describe who was father to whom. NT is different and quite better, but as it says OT is true one must accept them both. Anyway I find NT having quite tempting messages, but isn't that the way Satan is supposed to work by tempting people with things they wish so much so they readily accept? God from OT was more straightforward - ordering and expecting obedience, then punishing disobedience.

Upisoft: I hope that you don't mind that I've quoted these words that you wrote to Mcygee as a foundation for what I'm about to write to you. I've read where you've written of "boredom" concerning either God or His Word on a few occasions and, hopefully, what I'm about to write will help to eradicate such "boredom" from your life and also help you to better understand the correlation between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Here goes...

Many years ago, when I was teaching Sunday school to 3rd and 4th graders at a church in New York City, I stumbled upon a 24 piece (I think that it was 24 pieces) jigsaw puzzle in a store that depicted a lamb lying down in a field. I purchased the puzzle and put only the outside border pieces together and then taped them to a board. I brought this board to class with me and showed it to my students and asked them what they thought that this puzzle depicted, with them having only the border pieces to view. Tiny hands went up everywhere. "It's a cloud", said one child. "No, it's a computer", said another. To make a long story short, after every student had offered their guess, not one of them had gotten the correct answer. In fact, it wasn't until I began to fill in the missing pieces that EVERYONE clearly saw what was depicted on the puzzle: A LAMB. I don't know about you, but when I put together jigsaw puzzles as a child, I ALWAYS looked at the picture depicted on the puzzle box FIRST so that I knew what the completed work was supposed to look like. Not only that, but having a picture of the completed puzzle at my disposal also helped me to locate the proper place for, how shall we say, "puzzling pieces". In other words, if I was having a hard time figuring out where a certain piece of the puzzle fit, then I could easily refer to the picture on the box to see exactly where the piece was supposed to go. My point? Scripture says of Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you..." (I Peter 1:18-20)

And, again:

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)

Before the foundation of the world, it was foreordained that Christ would one day come to this earth and offer up Himself as "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). With such being the case, prior to the actual fulfillment of such in the New Testament, you will see (if you allow God to open your eyes to it, that is) MANY types and foreshadowings of Christ and His sufferings in the Old Testament scriptures. Before briefly pointing out some that you've already read in the first few chapters of Genesis, I'll present to you the following words of Jesus:

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:25-27)

Jesus was walking with two men on the road to Emmaus when He spoke these words. These two men didn't know that it was Jesus walking with them and they were saddened as they recollected the crucifixion of Christ. Jesus "began AT MOSES and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES the things concerning himself". Moses, as I trust you're already aware, wrote the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. In all five of these books, as well as in ALL THE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, Jesus is written about. As Christ "expounded" unto these two men on the road to Emmaus about what was written about Himself, He'll do the same exact thing FOR YOU...if you but ask Him to. Continuing on a little further, we read:

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures..." (Luke 24:44-45)

Here, we see Jesus "opening the understanding" of His 11 remaining disciples (Judas wasn't there) and showing them everything that was written "concerning Him" in the law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms. Once again, Jesus will open YOUR UNDERSTANDING as well...if you but ask Him to. You mentioned that you're presently in Genesis chapter 28...Here then are some of the things written about JESUS that you might have already missed:

1. Jesus is the very Creator of heaven and earth. When you read how "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), the Hebrew word that is translated as "God" is "elohiym", which is the PLURAL form of another Hebrew word that simply means God in the singular. In other words, from the very first verse of scripture, God or the Godhead (Trinity) is presented as a plurality. There are many New Testament verses which plainly teach that Jesus was the Person of the Godhead Who did the actual creating, but I'll simply cite one of them for now:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Colossians 1:15-18)

God the Father desired that Jesus should "have the preeminence in all things". For this reason, Jesus did the creating and a whole host of other things as well. Speaking of "hosts", they are not only mentioned in this verse, but also back in Genesis (you probably missed it and its significance when you recently read it). In other words, when we read here of such things as "principalities and powers" (they're mentioned elsewhere in scripture as well), we are actually reading of angelic beings that were created by Jesus. Let's take a quick look back to Genesis for a moment:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." (Genesis 2:1)

Here, we not only see how the heavens were created, but we also see a reference to "the host of them" as well. Now, I know that, at times, "the host" can refer to planets and such, but, at other times, "the host" clearly speaks of angelic beings. For example, in the New Testament, two times you will read where God is referred to as "the Lord of Sabaoth" (Romans 9:29, James 5:4). "The Lord of Sabaoth" literally means "the Lord of hosts" as in the Lord of angelic beings. In fact, in one of these references, Romans 9:29, Paul is actually citing an Old Testament verse from Isaiah which uses the words "Lord of hosts":

"And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Romans 9:29)

"Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." (Isaiah 1:9)

Anyhow, there are many scriptures in the Bible that clearly show that these "hosts" are "hosts" of angels. Here is but one:

"And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." (Luke 2:13-14)

Here, "the heavenly host" is clearly angels. Why am I telling you all of this? Well, since you've asked so many questions about Satan, I thought that I'd take this opportunity to let you know exactly when the Bible states that angels were created. According to scripture, they were created BEFORE the earth was created...when Jesus created the heavens AND THE HOST of them.

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:1-7)

In His rebuke of Job, the LORD (Jesus...Yes, JESUS) mentions how "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" as they were watching the earth being created. These "morning stars" and "sons of God" are ANGELS. There are other verses in scripture which make this plain...we can look at some of them, if you'd like to. In any case, the angels were created BEFORE the earth was created. In other words, being part of "the heavenly host", they were created when the heavens were created PRIOR TO the creating of the earth and, consequently, the creating of man (-kind).

2. As the Lamb Who "was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Peter 1:20), Christ's sufferings are REPEATEDLY prefigured in the Old Testament. You can see (if you allow God to open your eyes, that is) at least two (there are more than that) examples of this in the little bit that you've already read in the book of Genesis. For example, when Adam and Eve sinned and sought to cover their sin with fig leaves, God killed an animal (a type of Christ's sufferings) and made them coats of skins instead as a covering for their sin. Also, there is a reason why Abel's sacrifice was accepted and Cain's was rejected:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Hebrews 11:4)

Abel's sacrifice of "the firstlings of his flock" (Genesis 4:4) was offered "by faith". "By faith" of WHAT? "By faith" of the coming sacrifice of Jesus Christ many years later. Look, don't assume that these Old Testament saints were "in the dark" or as ignorant of Godly things as many today are. They knew what was going on and those who put their faith IN CHRIST acted accordingly. Cain? Well, I think that we both know who was influencing him, don't we? In case that we don't, here's the account:

"And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:6-7)

Did you see that? God just PERSONIFIED "sin". After telling Cain that "SIN lieth at the door", He continued on and told Cain that "unto thee shall be HIS desire". "His" who? Again, God told Cain that he must "rule over HIM". "Him" who?

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (I John 3:11-12)

You see, Upisoft, in the same manner in which Satan tempted Eve in the garden of Eden, he was also tempting Cain. "Sin", IN THE FORM OF SATANIC TEMPTATION, was truly "lying at the door". Unfortunately, Cain opened the door wide. In the New Testament, we are admonished to "Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:27) THIS is what "sin" truly is...an act of disobedience towards God and a consequential act of obedience to Satan. Anyhow, Abel (NOT Cain) "obtained witness that he was righteous" because he offered his sacrifice "by faith" in the coming Christ.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST...

 

[Ih8s8n]

Continued from previous post...

3. Jesus Christ is the very "seed of Abraham". In fact, in the very first verse of the New Testament, we read:

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew 1:1)

Yes, Upisoft, those "boring" genealogies have great significance. Not only that, but it's also very important what Bible version you read. Please allow me to explain.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

"HE SAITH NOT, AND TO SEEDS, AS OF MANY..." Boy, if more people understood that, then it would clear up A LOT of confusion. JESUS CHRIST is the SINGULAR "seed of Abraham". In other words, all those promises that you've just recently read in Genesis that were made to Abraham AND HIS SEED were made to Abraham and to JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SINGULAR SEED OF ABRAHAM. Additionally, we read:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

In other words, not only is Jesus Christ "the seed of Abraham", but also all of those who truly belong to Him are accounted as "Abraham's seed" as well and, consequently, they too become "joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17) or they are promised the same exact inheritance as Jesus Christ has been promised. What exactly then are those promises? Well, here is one consistent promise to both Jesus Christ and those who truly belong to Him throughout the Old Testament:

"And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him." (Genesis 12:6-7)

"Unto thy seed will I give this land..." Who is Abraham's "seed"? JESUS CHRIST and those who truly belong to Him...NOT the natural "descendants" of Abraham or naturally born Jews. Like I said, it's important what Bible version you use because several of the "newer" (read CORRUPT) versions use such words as "descendants" in place of "seed". This, as well as other things, has caused many to erroneously believe that God has some sort of "special covenant" with the Jewish people. HE DOESN'T. His covenant is with Jesus Christ and with those who truly belong to Him. Continuing on, we read:

"And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever." (Genesis 13:14-15)

What was Abraham's seed, WHICH IS CHRIST AND THOSE WHO TRULY BELONG TO HIM, "promised" (Hey, it's not called "the promised land" for nothing)? The land. It wasn't promised to naturally born UNBELIEVING JEWS. Go and shout that over in Jerusalem and I'll make your funeral arrangements as you do. Yet again, we read:

"In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land..." (Genesis 15:18)

"As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Genesis 17:4-8)

Once again, it is the land that is promised to Abraham's seed, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST AND THOSE WHO TRULY BELONG TO HIM. Hopefully, you noticed how God changed Abram's name to Abraham. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. The name "Abraham" literally means "a father of a multitude" or "a father of many nations". In other words, these promises were NEVER meant solely for any of Abraham's natural descendants (although naturally born Jews can certainly put their faith in Christ and therefore become "Abraham's seed" and many already have) or solely for naturally born Jews. NO, rather, these promises were meant for Jesus Christ and for ANYONE from ANY NATION who puts their trust in Jesus Christ.

"The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence." (Genesis 24:7)

Now, we're about to see where the same "promise" is passed along to Isaac.

"And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (Genesis 26:1-5)

God not only reminds Isaac of the promise that He made to his father Abraham regarding the land, but He also reiterates that "in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed". In other words, in Abraham's seed, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST, all the nations of the earth can be blessed by turning away from their sins and putting their faith in Christ. This TRULY is "the blessing of Abraham".

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26)

That was Peter preaching while he was full of the Holy Ghost. Did you hear what he said? He said that the "blessing of Abraham's seed" was in TURNING AWAY EVERY ONE OF YOU FROM HIS INIQUITIES. Gee, I guess that the "prosperity teachers" haven't "got wind" of this yet... Anyhow, once again, this "blessing" is available to ALL THE KINDREDS OF THE EARTH and it's not now, nor ever has been, a "special covenant" with the naturally born Jews. And now we come to your chapter, Genesis chapter 28, where we read:

"And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham." (Genesis 28:1-4)

Now, we see mention of the same promise being given to Jacob by his father Isaac. Better yet, continuing on just a bit, we see mention of the same promise being given to Jacob by God Himself.

"And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee." (Genesis 28:10-22)

Yet again, we see God reiterating His promise of giving the land and His blessing (TURNING AWAY FROM YOUR INIQUITIES) to "all the families of the earth". As I've said before, there is NO "special covenant" between God and the naturally born Jews. God's covenant is, and always has been, with Jesus Christ and with all of those who truly belong to Him. I mentioned to you in a previous post that you probably (a whole lot of professing Christians on this forum definitely are mixed up in this particular area) have misconceptions about the prophesied future that lead to your "boredom". Once again, heaven is NOT the final destination for Christians. Heaven is but an intermediate place where the dead in Christ will go until the time that Jesus Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. There are plenty of scriptures that plainly teach this...here is but one of them:

"For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Romans 4:13)

Abraham and his seed, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST AND ALL OF THOSE FROM ANY NATION WHO TRULY BELONG TO HIM, were promised to be "heirs of the world"...NOT heaven. It's just as Jesus said that it would be, when He said:

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)

"THE EARTH", albeit a "new earth", will ultimately be the true Christian's "inheritance". THIS is what was promised TO CHRIST and this is what all true "joint heirs with Christ" have been promised as well. Those "boring" genealogies are VERY IMPORTANT. As the "seed of Abraham", Jesus Christ will one day return to inherit the land. Also, as the "seed of David", He will likewise sit upon the throne of David and rule over this earth from Jerusalem at His return. Anyhow, getting back to Jacob's dream for a moment, let's briefly examine "the ladder" that he saw:

"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." (John 1:49-51)

Here, Jesus pointed Nathanael back to "Jacob's ladder" and basically told him that He was the True "Ladder" between heaven and earth or the only Mediator between God and man. Also, I would heartily suggest to you that there was great symbolism in Jacob's standing up the stone that he had used as his pillow and erecting it as a pillar that he later anointed with oil. You see, Upisoft, the only way that we can truly experience "rest" is in the understanding that Jesus Christ laid down his life for us (the stone that was lying down) and later was resurrected (the stone erected as a pillar) and was consequently "anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows" (Hebrews 1:9) (the pillar that was anointed with oil). Anyhow, I hope that some of what I've written helps you to better understand exactly what it is that you're reading. As always, my desire for you is to come into a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God through Jesus Christ. God's covenant with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture. God's not into "shotgun weddings", though. Somewhere along the line, you'll need to sincerely say "I do!". Christ has already "bowed the heavens" and come down to "propose" to you. The ball is in your court. Take care.

 

[Upisoft]

I'm sorry I've wasted your time. My Bible study actually finished with reason not to believe. It is not even remotely connected with everything discussed here. I just found something that totally destroyed any potential I'll ever believe in any religion that insists that OT is the True word of God. So, I've just removed Jewish and Christian religions out of my potential list.

It would not happen if I didn't start reading the Bible for 3rd time, so thank you for making me read the Bible again.

Thank you for your efforts.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Upisoft: Aren't you at least going to tell us what that "something" is?

 

[Upisoft]

Upisoft: Aren't you at least going to tell us what that "something" is?

I'm sorry, I can, but I don't want to. I better have you as a friend. I only can say I'm sure my decision was not influenced by anything other than the Bible.

I'm aware that my decision will disturb you. I'm also aware, you will not like my decision to keep my findings only to me. But I can't do what you are asking me. You are the only person that can find for yourself what I've found for myself. I'm sure if I answer your question, it will only lead to heated debate, bad feelings and lost friendship.

I'm really sorry Ih8s8n. Don't be angry for my decision.

 

[Ih8s8n]

I'm sure if I answer your question, it will only lead to heated debate, bad feelings and lost friendship.

I'm really sorry Ih8s8n. Don't be angry for my decision.

Upisoft: I'm certainly not going to press you for an answer, but I was surprised by these comments. After all that we've been through, both here and on the other forum (the other forum, especially), I find it hard to believe that anything could possibly cause the type of disharmony that you're describing. Anyhow, I'm far from "angry" for your decision. "Disappointed", maybe. "Angry", not even close. Take care.