Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.

[Lulav]

ok..I answered your question,but you did not answer this,from pages ago....LEV 12:1??

Do we keep this cleanliness law still?


Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed. 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation. And she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days.


Actually,do we keep all the OT laws.are we required to?
Do males have to be cut on the 8th day?
Do we not wear interwoven clothes?
Are we stoned for working on the Sabbath?
Are we..are we..?
oooops! there are lot more! Please advise.

No, you did not answer my question at all. And as long as you keep being disrespectful and crude about G-ds holy laws I will not answer your questions above.

 

[Frogster]

Scripture is not a 'who'. James was the head of the congregation founded by his brother Jesus. He made an edict on what the gentiles were to do, he was the authority along with agreement of the other elders and of course the Holy Spirit.

Then if you say 'scripture' meaning that in 1 Cornithians you are being acquiescent that whoever wrote that ignored the edict from the council and also was teaching against what Jesus taught. So who do you follow?

Written after 1 Corinthians:

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write ; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest , even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein * Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth . 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught * Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication .


18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write ; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication , and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Oh please! 2 different things..he actually was worshipping idols,and fornicating in his actions.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that we are not under the OT food laws.No one is saying worship jezebel by fornicating or offering up food to her!

geesh!

Scripture says eat all..and it says in Rom,that all is clean..2 times!

 

[Frogster]

No, you did not answer my question at all. And as long as you keep being disrespectful and crude about G-ds holy laws I will not answer your questions above.

I dont know why you want to try this tactic?Your in a debate,then when a truthful tuff question comes,you try this?
Are we under all the OT laws or not?

 

[KM Richards]

Scripture says eat all..and it says in Rom,that all is clean..2 times!

Sure, it's cleamn spiritually speaking in the sense that we are no longer under the Law where it will effect our relationship with God...as far as Salvation is concerned

But, it's a proven medical fact that the things God said not to eat are very bad for your body...so, if you care anything at all about the Temple of the Holy Spirit (your physical body) then you'll make a good faith effort to put good food in your body.

Otherwise...who cares? It's just the Temple of the Holy Spirit...the vessel that enables you to stay here and do the work of the Father!

If that doesn't matter to you...then eat up!
(and, get a good life insurance policy while yer at it...)

 

[martymonster]

Once again logic and the truth comes out but honestly do you think anyone here is going to take your post and mull over it to see the truth? No would be my answer.

Good post by the way Marty

God is spirit, nothing He says or does is for physical reasons.

The flesh is done for and that has be His plan all along right from the beginning.

He has numbered our days and there is nothing we can do to alter that one iota, so what would be the point of Him saying that We can't eat physical thing for physical reasons?

It is God who is control of everything and not us.
That's why George Burns smoked cigars and lived till He was 100.

Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Now I know most people think that this means that He happens to know how many hairs are on your head at any one time, but is that what it says?

Will We turn God into the great mathematician in the sky?
Some of us have already turned Him into the great dietitian in the sky!

No it means that your days are numbered and You have an exact set amount of time that you will live!

 

[VictorC]

Exodus 20: 8-11 quotes almost everything from Genesis 2. Compare the two together, there is no doubt that its the same day, the 7th day Sabbath.

Genesis 2:

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he resteda from all his work. 3And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:8-11

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 20:11 uses the same appeal to a single event in the past to ordain the sabbath that Deuteronomy 5:15 does.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Deuteronomy 5:15
And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

These two verses use the same structure:
single event in the past was the impetus --> therefore --> He blessed/you keep the sabbath

In each case a single event in the past was the reason "therefore" to ordain a sabbath that was unlike those events, in that it repeated every week over and over and over. This aspect of the sabbath has been pointed out to you at least a dozen times in the past.

• The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's rest - not the sabbath.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath as separate subjects.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest", called "another day" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
• Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

The sabbath was faithfully delineated apart from the seventh day of the creation account everywhere it appears in Scripture and a comparison is made. The consistent record contained in the Bible attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses in the manna experiance recorded in Exodus 16, about a month prior to the covenant dictated from Mount Sinai, which was the ten commandments.

 

[Lulav]

Sneaky ploy! LOL! Like the Jews who kept trying to kill him were not sneaky!.Jesus would vanish from their midsts,would you say he was a coward?

Think about it..

Did Moses get beaten and endure what Paul did?

Think about it.

We are speaking of a specific time and a specific person, Paul during the time of 55-60CE, many years after Jesus' time.

They were only doing what G-d orders Israel to do to a false prophet according to Torah. You think about this:

Why was only Paul getting beaten up in Jerusalem and not all the elders and Apostles?

And why If Paul was innocent of the charges, didn't James, or John or Peter come to his defense against the Sanhedrin?

 

[Frogster]

Sure, it's cleamn spiritually speaking in the sense that we are no longer under the Law where it will effect our relationship with God...as far as Salvation is concerned

But, it's a proven medical fact that the things God said not to eat are very bad for your body...so, if you care anything at all about the Temple of the Holy Spirit (your physical body) then you'll make a good faith effort to put good food in your body.

Otherwise...who cares? It's just the Temple of the Holy Spirit...the vessel that enables you to stay here and do the work of the Father!

If that doesn't matter to you...then eat up!
(and, get a good life insurance policy while yer at it...)

Dude,I am all for good health.But lobster has selinium,(check spelling)which is good for you,yet it is unclean.

 

[Frogster]

We are speaking of a specific time and a specific person, Paul during the time of 55-60CE, many years after Jesus' time.

They were only doing what G-d orders Israel to do to a false prophet according to Torah. You think about this:

Why was only Paul getting beaten up in Jerusalem and not all the elders and Apostles?

And why If Paul was innocent of the charges, didn't James, or John or Peter come to his defense against the Sanhedrin?

Only Paul?..There was a persecution of others you know!

And dont forget about Peter in Acts 12,he was going to be killed..

Ok..are you going to answer that question?

Do we have to follow ALL the OT laws?

 

[Frogster]

And crab has B vitamins as well.

thats true!
I also love king crab legs,dunked in fattening butter!

 

[bugkiller]

We are speaking of a specific time and a specific person, Paul during the time of 55-60CE, many years after Jesus' time.

They were only doing what G-d orders Israel to do to a false prophet according to Torah. You think about this:

Why was only Paul getting beaten up in Jerusalem and not all the elders and Apostles?

And why If Paul was innocent of the charges, didn't James, or John or Peter come to his defense against the Sanhedrin?

Some good questions - got any answers for us?

bugkiller

 

[cyberlizard]

I dont know why you want to try this tactic?Your in a debate,then when a truthful tuff question comes,you try this?
Are we under all the OT laws or not?

NO WE ARE NOT - THE TRUTH IS, NO ONE EVER HAS BEEN. I DO NOT THINK YOU UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OR PURPOSE OF THOSE LAWS.

NO ONE IS UNDER ALL 613 LAWS.



Steve

p.s. I mus say I agree with a previous poster that you seem to despise God's law and his commandments which are a thing of beauty and a gift. Or maybe it is just the way you write. Maybe you should tell us all your personal opinion on the Teaching of God.

 

[KM Richards]

God is spirit, nothing He says or does is for physical reasons.
The flesh is done for and that has be His plan all along right from the beginning.

That's not true. Go back to God's original plan (Garden of Eden) where He gave man a physical body. God said it was "good" after creating man and giving him a perfect place to live, so God was pleased.

Your body is required for you to live in this natural world. Without it, you must leave. God desires for all of us to have long life with satisfaction while here on earth.

And, in the next age we'll all have our physical bodies back only they will be glorified bodies just like Jesus got

No it means that your days are numbered and You have an exact set amount of time that you will live!

That's false. God said it is appointed unto man ONCE to die...He said nothing in the Bible about there being a specific number of days because mankind has free will and that will effect how long we live.

If you, as an act of your free will, eat all the things God said not to, then your life here will be cut short due to health issues related to feeding your body trash...and God doesn't have anything to do with that.

God knows all things, including what day you're going to croak, but He's not deciding what day you leave Club Earth unless of course you are here when He removes Jesus' Body from the earth.

It's like when Jesus said "you will experience tribulation"...some people think that means God is personally bringing trouble to your life, which is false. No, this was nothing more than Jesus looking into the future and saying "Hey, there will be trouble while you are here".

He is not the author of your trouble, or your physical death.
God is the author of SALVATION, which means DELIVERANCE

 

[tall73]

NO WE ARE NOT - THE TRUTH IS, NO ONE EVER HAS BEEN. I DO NOT THINK YOU UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OR PURPOSE OF THOSE LAWS.

NO ONE IS UNDER ALL 613 LAWS.

.

Agreed. I would not be under the laws for menstruation for instance.

But then the book of Acts certainly calls into question whether I as a gentile Christian am under even those that might otherwise apply to my situation.


And that is the continual debate here.

 

[BenedictsSword]

Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.

I guess that means that Joel Osteen is fairly ignorant

 

[cyberlizard]

Agreed. I would not be under the laws for menstruation for instance.

But then the book of Acts certainly calls into question whether I as a gentile Christian am under even those that might otherwise apply to my situation.


And that is the continual debate here .

that is the truth of the matter. The Torah is not mandatory for gentiles.

that said though, the Didache (i know it isn't part of the canon as it stands now, but at one time was pretty much accepted reading), says this in regards to gentiles and the food laws....

Didache 6... Take heed, lest one lead you astray from the path of this teaching, for he teaches apart from God.

2For, if you are able to take up the whole yoke of the Lord (Torah), you will be complete, but if you are not able, do that which you are able.

3And concerning your food, bear what you are able, but keep far from that which is sacrificed to idols, for it is the worship of dead gods.



Steve

p.s. a little background about the didache...

The Didache was accepted by many early church fathers as scriptural. Among these were Athanasius, Rufinus, and John of Damascus.

The book was also accepted into the Apostolic Constitutions Canon 85 and the 81-book Ethiopic Canon.

It was rejected, however, by Nicephorus, Pseudo-Anastasius, and the 60 Books canon.

Many early authors including Barnabas, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen quote or reference the Didache.

 

[Frogster]

NO WE ARE NOT - THE TRUTH IS, NO ONE EVER HAS BEEN. I DO NOT THINK YOU UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OR PURPOSE OF THOSE LAWS.

NO ONE IS UNDER ALL 613 LAWS.



Steve

p.s. I mus say I agree with a previous poster that you seem to despise God's law and his commandments which are a thing of beauty and a gift. Or maybe it is just the way you write. Maybe you should tell us all your personal opinion on the Teaching of God.

I undertsand some laws did not pertain to all.Thanks for using upper case letters.

Since your post got personal.Allow me to ask a persoanl question.Are you a gentile? And do you feel obligated to obey any laws that apply,in a legal sense?

 

[cyberlizard]

Of course I am a gentile. I have never claimed to be Jewish.

If you can answer my question, I'll answer yours.


Steve

 

[cyberlizard]

I undertsand some laws did not pertain to all.Thanks for using upper case letters.

Since your post got personal.Allow me to ask a persoanl question.Are you a gentile? And do you feel obligated to obey any laws that apply,in a legal sense?

i don't think you do, as you endlessly ask people are they under the whole law. As though the whole law equals 613 (approx) commandments.



Steve

 

[Frogster]

i don't think you do, as you endlessly ask people are they under the whole law. As though the whole law equals 613 (approx) commandments.



Steve

Actually I give people a little more credit,than you pressume.Who does not know that farming laws,don't apply to a non-farmer?