Astrophysics: what is / was the firmament made out of?

[lucaspa]

Here is an extensive write-up on colophons.

It even mentions Adam's 'signature':

I notice "signature" is in quotes. The article never explained how Genesis 5:12 is a signature. It say simply "When Kenan had lived 70 years, he fathered Mahalalel" How does that indicate that Adam was the author?

I also note that all these articles talk about "tablets", but no one has ever found an actual tablet. So they are all even more hypothetical than the JEPD set of authors. And there is nothing to tell you Adam is one of the authors.

"As for the compilation, it becomes clear that Moses was very reliable and faithful in not changing these old sources. He left them, as far as reasonable, in their original textual state, with all the awkward joints visible."

JEPD also explains those awkard places. The redactor generally left the original sources in place and kept the awkward places.

Also, this theory does not explain the intertwining of stories in Genesis 6-8. If Moses is supposed to be "reliable and faithful" and only including whole tablets, then why would Moses abandon that and suddenly intertwine two supposed independent tablets?

No, there are very good objective reasons Biblical scholars rejected Weismann and very obvious biased reasons creationists would accept him.

 

[lucaspa]

That's not my problem -- I'm not the one disputing it.

It's your problem because you are the one claiming the material is accurate. That is, you want us to take the article as describing a valid hypothesis of authorship of Genesis. However, the tags indicate that there is considerable doubt as to the accuracy of the hypothesis, and the article does not take those doubts and criticisms into account.

If you use a source to back an argument you are making, then any problems with the accuracy of the source are your problem.

 

[lucaspa]

I just noticed this from the site arguing for the Tablet Theory: Who Wrote Genesis? Are the Toledoth Colophons?

"The Babylonian system enabled the ancient peoples to make multiple copies. Once impressed, all you had to do was to produce another slab of soft clay and take a reverse impression, then a third slab placed over the second one after it had dried, would produce on the third a copy of the first one. A simple copying machine!
These tablets would be strung together to make continuous narratives or official records or whatever. Someone like Adam could have made a set or sets and passed them on to Noah within three generations. These could then go via Noah’s three sons down the patriarchal line to Terah. "

Dr. Taylor apparently doesn't realize how this just falsifies the Tablet Theory. Adam is supposed to have used a "Babylonian system" long before there was a Babylon. IOW, he has Adam, Noah, Terah, etc. using a system before it was invented.

It's obvious that the Tablet Theory cannot be true and Adam could not have written Genesis 1-4:26. Nor could Noah, Shem, Terah, Isaac, Jacob, etc. have been authors of any tablets.

Which leaves us back with "firmament" referring to the Babylonian concept of a transparent crystal dome.

 

[Hespera]

I just noticed this from the site arguing for the Tablet Theory: Who Wrote Genesis? Are the Toledoth Colophons?

"The Babylonian system enabled the ancient peoples to make multiple copies. Once impressed, all you had to do was to produce another slab of soft clay and take a reverse impression, then a third slab placed over the second one after it had dried, would produce on the third a copy of the first one. A simple copying machine!
These tablets would be strung together to make continuous narratives or official records or whatever. Someone like Adam could have made a set or sets and passed them on to Noah within three generations. These could then go via Noah’s three sons down the patriarchal line to Terah. "

Dr. Taylor apparently doesn't realize how this just falsifies the Tablet Theory. Adam is supposed to have used a "Babylonian system" long before there was a Babylon. IOW, he has Adam, Noah, Terah, etc. using a system before it was invented.

It's obvious that the Tablet Theory cannot be true and Adam could not have written Genesis 1-4:26. Nor could Noah, Shem, Terah, Isaac, Jacob, etc. have been authors of any tablets.

Which leaves us back with "firmament" referring to the Babylonian concept of a transparent crystal dome.

I know a girl here, who is from Philippines. Rural village, bamboo house, they used to have pythons come at night and eat the chickens! Parents never went to school at all

She has a college degree now, and lives of course here in the USA.

Very interesting person, what a life story!

She has talked about how embarrassing it was for her to keep discovering all the superstitions she had, and to have to unlearn them. How she believed everything the catholic church taught but cant be dragged to church now.

But anyway the point of this is she was telling me what she thought the sky was what the stars were. Just looking up at it and wondering, trying to puzzle it out.

She decided it was like a bowl, with holes in it, and the stars were those holes, with the light of heaven shining thru.

Pretty much like the Babylonians thought.

 

[Chesterton]

She has talked about how embarrassing it was for her to keep discovering all the superstitions she had, and to have to unlearn them. How she believed everything the catholic church taught but cant be dragged to church now.

Mythology and superstition are not the same thing.

 

[The Penitent Man]

It depends on which firmament you're talking about.

There are three of them -- also called "heavens":

1. first heaven = atmosphere = 0-62 miles up
2. second heaven = outer space = 62 miles - heaven
3. third heaven = heaven proper

A firmament is nothing more than a containment field, made to house specific objects.

So the 3 firmaments are actually just the planet's gravity and atmospheric layers? That makes sense.

 

[Hespera]

Mythology and superstition are not the same thing.

Did not say they are, tho I am sure you will agree there is some overlap.

 

[Split Rock]

But anyway the point of this is she was telling me what she thought the sky was what the stars were. Just looking up at it and wondering, trying to puzzle it out.

She decided it was like a bowl, with holes in it, and the stars were those holes, with the light of heaven shining thru.

Pretty much like the Babylonians thought.

A very common concept in the past, before anyone knew that the stars were actually suns. The way I remember it, the stars were holes in a surface that covered a huge celestial fire. I wonder why scripture doesn't mention that stars were like the sun?

 

[HasturX]

Mythology and superstition are not the same thing.

Then why do they look the same?

 

[Chesterton]

Then why do they look the same?

They don't look the same to literate and educated people.

 

[AV1611VET]

They don't look the same to literate and educated people.

Mmmm -- I wish they had a smiley for 'high fives'!

 

[Hespera]

They don't look the same to literate and educated people.

educated people dont believe either of them, so in that way they are indistinguishable

 

[ArnautDaniel]

They don't look the same to literate and educated people.

The difference between myth and superstition is like the difference between patriot and nationalist.

If you kind of like it, it is a myth or a patriot.

If you look down on it it is a superstition or a nationalist.

The distinction tells us something about the attitude of the speaker but little about the thing being denoted.

 

[Chesterton]

The difference between myth and superstition is like the difference between patriot and nationalist.

If you kind of like it, it is a myth or a patriot.

If you look down on it it is a superstition or a nationalist.

The distinction tells us something about the attitude of the speaker but little about the thing being denoted.

I think the difference is that mythology is like poetry, philosophy and religion, whereas superstition is like science.

If a person sees a black cat cross someone's path, and something bad happens to them, and then they see the the same thing happen to another person, they will perceive a possible correlation (even if incorrect) and form a hypothesis or conclusion that black cats are bad luck. That may be bad science, but it is very like science.

Mythology is much bigger and more important, and concerned with the larger truths, and rarely has anything in common with that kind of process.

 

[nathanlandon1]

What is / was the firmament made out of?



Firmament is the term used in the KJV for the Hebrew word rawkee or rawkah

rawkee could be translated as 'expanse' or 'the visible arch of the sky'
rawkah as 'pound' 'beat' 'spread out into plates' 'stamp' or 'stretch


but what helps is the term also appears in Job37:

Here are four translations:

18Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? (KJV)

18 can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze? (NIV)

18Can you, like him,(Y) spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal(Z) mirror? (ESV)

Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
unyielding as a cast mirror? (NRSV)


Will they be able to make some at CERN?
.

The universal firmament is made out of many things, but astrophysicists do not know what is it completely made of. Here is a list:

At least 10 dimensions* and an unknown amount of hyper-dimensions

Electromagnetism (includes particles with integer or half spin but no mass)

Atoms (Includes stars, planets, galaxies, solar systems, etc.)

Neutrinos (A BIG ONE, neutrinos can be considered dark matter, which makes up a large chunk of the mass of the universe...much more than the physical, visible universe.)

Dark Matter (unknown in composition)

Dark Energy (unknown in composition)

*Mathematical formulation shows there must be at least 10 dimensions (not including time) that make up the universe. This dips into String Theory (infinitesimally thin one-dimensional strings of super compact energy)



The majority of the universe (75%) is dark matter and dark energy. In other words, we only know what 25% of the universe is made of. And, since we cannot reproduce the experiment in the laboratory and the only experiment we have is the universe, there is NO WAY to be sure of anything in the universe.

CERN's cover is to try to reproduce experiements of the universe (namely the Big Bang,) but it is really an experiment in time travel and micro-singularities. When you have a tremendous amount of energy concentrated in a very small volume, you "punch through" the space-time fabric, creating inter-dimensional micro-singularities. Think of the mass-energy of a neutron star compacted to one billionth the volume it was - it creates a "black hole," which is a massive singularity.

Black holes/singularities utilize a universal "theoretical" property know as hyperspace - in which the speed of light is much greater than c, and the temperature is T < 0 K. On the other side of a black hole is a white hole where all of the mass-energy is spewed out (hence "white" hole for white light.)


So, I say all of that to say this: physicists do not know what the universe is made of. We have a good idea, and there are many [often conflicting] theories in the scientific community, but nothing ultra definitive. We have dabbled in time travel (via the Philadelphia Experiment and Montauk.) We know about quantum teleportation and quantum tunneling, so it is only a matter of time before we find a way to teleport and tunnel over a sum of particles (i.e. matter/mass teleport.) Some would argue it is already here.


CERN is at half power (7 TeV, a tremendous amount of energy)* , but it has had tremendous effects on the earth. What physicists are doing now is extraordinarily irresponsible. And, it is also very PRIMITIVE - smashing atoms to get a desired result instead of investing time to get the knowledge to safely accomplish the same result.


But, there are spiritual implications for the reason why we are rushing to accomplish this.



*For some perspective, the energy per proton used at CERN now is about 3500x GREATER than the energy per particle (usually neutron) needed to split an atom for nuclear fission.

If we had one mole of CERN energetic protons (1.0073 g,) the energy of one mole of protons would be ~2 x10^31 electron volts... that is

20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 eV/mol, or

2,000,000,000 kJ/mol - which is equivalent to a 1 kiloton nuclear bomb for every one gram of CERN energetic protons.

So these protons are extremely energetic - the magnetic fields needed to contain this plasma is 10^14 times larger than the magnetic field of earth.

 

[AV1611VET]

At least 10 dimensions* and an unknown amount of hyper-dimensions

As I understand it, Nachmanides predicted 10 dimensions of space, using just Genesis 1.

 

[nathanlandon1]

As I understand it, Nahmanides predicted 10 dimensions of space, using just Genesis 1.

I wouldn't doubt it. I went through years of physics only to realize most all the stuff I learned in physics is in the bible in a VERY PITHY form.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wouldn't doubt it. I went through years of physics only to realize most all the stuff I learned in physics is in the bible in a VERY PITHY form.

Welcome to CF, by the way --

 

[ArnautDaniel]

I think the difference is that mythology is like poetry, philosophy and religion, whereas superstition is like science.

If a person sees a black cat cross someone's path, and something bad happens to them, and then they see the the same thing happen to another person, they will perceive a possible correlation (even if incorrect) and form a hypothesis or conclusion that black cats are bad luck. That may be bad science, but it is very like science.

Mythology is much bigger and more important, and concerned with the larger truths, and rarely has anything in common with that kind of process.

You mean like Phaethon driving the chariot of the Sun into the earth...

...meaning what "larger truth" exactly?

Or Zeus turning into a bull and raping some girl?

What is the "larger truth" in the bull-girl rape exactly?

 

[HasturX]

They don't look the same to literate and educated people.

Which educated people? The ones who believe that invisible angels are around us or the educated people who think that cows are holy animals?