Astrophysics: what is / was the firmament made out of?

[LifeToTheFullest!]

So was the writer of Matthew's Gospel aware of the fact that Jesus was born of a virgin when he penned Jesus' lineage from Joseph back to Abraham?

 

[AV1611VET]

So was the writer of Matthew's Gospel aware of the fact that Jesus was born of a virgin when he penned Jesus' lineage from Joseph back to Abraham?

Matthew 1:

18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

You see where I'm going with this AV, don't you?

The writer of Matthew spends the first seventeen verses detailing Jesus' pratriarchal lineage, only to throw a wrench into it in eighteen?!

 

[Inan3]

So was the writer of Matthew's Gospel aware of the fact that Jesus was born of a virgin when he penned Jesus' lineage from Joseph back to Abraham?

You see where I'm going with this AV, don't you?

The writer of Matthew spends the first seventeen verses detailing Jesus' pratriarchal lineage, only to throw a wrench into it in eighteen?!

It is OBVIOUS that the Matthew DID indeed know that Jesus WAS born of a virgin by the CONTEXT of the following verses that you mention. And assuming, as one does when they read a writer's text, that the writer had a particular point and agenda in his/her writing, then, as the usual course of investigation, (when one finds what they "deem" something to be a possible contradiction), one should begin to try to speculate as to WHY that "seemingly" contradicting statement was made.

In other words....

Matthew obviously knew that Mary was a virgin and that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus, because he immediately writes about it! But if you are willing to give Matthew (and the Bible) the benefit of the doubt you will see that Matthew was not an idiot but someone who knew to WHOM he was writing and he knew WHAT those people believed.

The Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew, a Jew, and it was written specifically to Jews to bring to light what the Old Testament scriptures taught about the Messiah...Jesus. He was not writing to people who did not understand how and what mattered in Jewish genealogy. He understood when a man married a woman and took her to wife and he became the father of her child or children by choice, that he took that child as his own. His understanding (and theirs) would not be like our confused concept of men and women splitting up and remarrying again and again and the children barely knowing who their fathers are or were. They lived with particular laws and virtues that we don't have today. So for us to interpret Matthew's writings, we are going to have to understand their traditions with THEIR interpretation and understanding of those traditions. When it came to this particular type of circumstance the "man of the house's" or the father's geneology was accepted as the child's, EVEN THOUGH the child may not be his in the natural. Matthew wasn't trying to hide the fact that the child was not Joseph's biological child and YET he included him in the geneology. So the OBVIOUS conclusion is, this WAS an acceptable condition to the Jewish people at that time SO... when the scriptures include BOTH the mother's and the father's (Joseph's in the case) genealogy, they, in actuality, DO NOT contradict, AND they DO fulfill the prophecies of the scriptures in BOTH situations. IF this were not the case then Matthew was just shooting himself in the foot by giving the information that Jesus was not Joseph's natural offspring. If he was just writing to the people trying to deceive them then he would obviously NOT include that information. He would have known that they would have rejected the whole thing. This only makes sense.

Just because WE today read these, and "some" WANT to prove it as erroneous, does not make it wrong. As a matter of fact, do to the fact that the scriptures INCLUDE it ALL and don't deny it shows that there is in deed a truth that possibly we don't see yet.

I think, if one would be honest, that if we were to just go about CONCLUDING that something has got to be ERRONEOUS because we don't understand the connection, then we would probably reject MUCH of what is taught or written overall.

It is the fact that we are curious beings having intelligence that we pursue the whole truth of a particular thesis. It is, also, a fact that in so doing, we get more understanding and meaning than if we just REJECT or try to find fault with it.

I would suggest, therefore, that you apply yourself in this way to the writings of the Bible rather than just reject them or criticize them. You would find that there is much more to gain than you expected.

I guess, I, also, find it insulting in a small way, if it were not so humorous, that it would be ASSUMED that WE (meaning Bible believers) couldn't figure that out on our own, I mean, if something were, in fact, erroneous. It seems that because YOU can't understand WHY we believe the biblical accounts you think it must be because we have been duped and unable to think for ourselves. That is NOT the case.

I, (probably unlike you) have spent literally thousands of hours studying the Bible. You could say it has been 2/3 of my lifetime. Not only have I found it NOT to contradict but the more I read it and study it, I find it to more and more accurate. I will admit that in my study of it I have found that many Bible theologians have taught alot of erroneous things, but I am in hopes, that if they continue to study they will find that they will change some of their conclusions. I think most of the stumbling blocks to understanding the Bible is because these errors have been just passed along from generation to generation. It's only when we study for ourselves and do not just believe everything we have heard that we are truly set free to know the truth. I would suggest the same is true in your own ideology. I have already experienced the disappointment that others taught me wrong and possibly I passed that along to others. I didn't like it and still don't. I have determined that I will learn for myself and not accept the foregone conclusions of others UNTIL I have proved them as true and unbiased. I suggest you do the same.

Open your heart and your eyes will open, also.

 

[AV1611VET]

Open your heart and your eyes will open, also.

Hey, sis --

Long time - no see!

 

[Inan3]

Hey, sis --

Long time - no see!

Hey back, and kudos for the truth.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hey back, and kudos for the truth.

God bless you, sis!

Welcome back to the lion's den!

 

[MorkandMindy]

Actually, traditionally it was taken to be some sort of transparent crystaline sphere (or series of spheres).

...

No, this is contrary to scripture.

Outside the firmament is heaven and heaven is full of light, so the firmament must be metal with holes in it.

The OT is based on Babylonian cosmology. In that cosmology the firmament was a crystal dome over the world. Stars were set in the dome and there were storehouses of water, show, hail, etc. above it...

I think the Babylonians got it wrong.

.

 

[The Penitent Man]

Maybe the firmament was not anything physical.

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

What is / was the firmament made out of?



Firmament is the term used in the KJV for the Hebrew word rawkee or rawkah

rawkee could be translated as 'expanse' or 'the visible arch of the sky'
rawkah as 'pound' 'beat' 'spread out into plates' 'stamp' or 'stretch


but what helps is the term also appears in Job37:

Here are four translations:

18Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? (KJV)

18 can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze? (NIV)

18Can you, like him,(Y) spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal(Z) mirror? (ESV)

Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
unyielding as a cast mirror? (NRSV)


Will they be able to make some at CERN?
.

Magick. It was made of Magick like the Fludde.

 

[MorkandMindy]

So the 3 firmaments are actually just the planet's gravity and atmospheric layers? That makes sense.

I don't think it does make sense:

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

How did gravity keep water above the firmament?

I'm guessing that the water that came down and flooded the World in Noah's flood was from above the firmament.

The firmament had another function; it held the stars in place:

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.



I don't see anything unscientific about that, except perhaps having the stars in the firmament and the water above it maybe

 

[Hespera]

I don't think it does make sense:

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

How did gravity keep water above the firmament?

I'm guessing that the water that came down and flooded the World in Noah's flood was from above the firmament.

The firmament had another function; it held the stars in place:

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.



I don't see anything unscientific about that, except perhaps having the stars in the firmament and the water above it maybe

Sure! except for the details, the story is accurate!

 

[MorkandMindy]

A very common concept in the past, before anyone knew that the stars were actually suns. The way I remember it, the stars were holes in a surface that covered a huge celestial fire. I wonder why scripture doesn't mention that stars were like the sun?

If you want to check if the Biblical version is the right one then just open your eyes and look:

Sun vs Stars

Hot | Cold
Moves across sky | All stars are fixed to something that rotates every 24hr
Doesn't twinkle| Does twinkle
Visible in day | Visible at night