That Boat Don't Float!!

[Hespera]

You are reiterating the fundamental point of Ding Dong with this statement. I will reiterate as well, that unless fools, liars, or too stubborn tthe simple truth that what we believe in is completely intangible, and this should be enough to discard our beliefs, there must be something more to spirituality than you are stretching your primate mind to grasp.

39% nostradamus
65%, ouija boards
52 percent believe dreams can sometimes foretell the future or reveal hidden truths.
37 percent believe places can be haunted.
28 percent believe it's possible to influence the world through the mind alone (telekinesis).
25 percent believe some UFOs are probably spaceships from other worlds.
20 percent believe it's possible to communicate with the dead.
18 percent believe creatures such as Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster will one day be discovered by science.
13 percent believe in astrologers, palm readers, tarot cards, fortune tellers, and psychics.

Source: Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion

.......................................

" I will reiterate as well, that unless we (and I'll include all religions in this statement) are fools, liars, or too stubborn to see the simple truth..."



nah. that is way too harsh, tho we understand the rhetorical reason for putting it that way.

Just ordinary kind of naive people acting like ordinary people.

Reality aint a popularity contest.

Ouija boards wont become real even if every last person on earth has 'faith' ion them.

 

[keith99]

39% nostradamus
65%, ouija boards
52 percent believe dreams can sometimes foretell the future or reveal hidden truths.
37 percent believe places can be haunted.
28 percent believe it's possible to influence the world through the mind alone (telekinesis).
25 percent believe some UFOs are probably spaceships from other worlds.
20 percent believe it's possible to communicate with the dead.
18 percent believe creatures such as Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster will one day be discovered by science.
13 percent believe in astrologers, palm readers, tarot cards, fortune tellers, and psychics.

Source: Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion

.......................................

" I will reiterate as well, that unless we (and I'll include all religions in this statement) are fools, liars, or too stubborn to see the simple truth..."



nah. that is way too harsh, tho we understand the rhetorical reason for putting it that way.

Just ordinary kind of naive people acting like ordinary people.

Reality aint a popularity contest.

Ouija boards wont become real even if every last person on earth has 'faith' ion them.

Ouija Boards are real, I've seen one! So was Nostradamus!

Many of Nostradamas's predictions have come true, some of them multiple times!

On the serious side a couple are quite reasonable, even though phrased in a deceptive way. Of course dreams may reveal hidden truths! Entirely reasonable that the subconscious might bubble up in a dream. Grouping that with predicting the future is just wrong.

On the bigfoot et. al. front considering the huge number of semi-mythical creatures I fully expect that sooner or later one of them will be found to have roots in reality. But I'm not expecting it to be Nessie. In general I'd say the larger the less likely. (One could argue this has already happened with a few creatures, it is just that as soon as something is found it leaves the world of legend. Go back a few centruries and Elephants and Camels fit, at least in some parts of the world).

Oh wait, just a little over 100 years ago for the centenial celebration in the U.S. they took a section from a sequoia tree, cut it into transportable pieces and reassembled it back east. It was considered a hoax. Ironic it was plant, not animal, but a 'recent' case.

 

[Hespera]

Ouija Boards are real, I've seen one! So was Nostradamus!

Many of Nostradamas's predictions have come true, some of them multiple times!

On the serious side a couple are quite reasonable, even though phrased in a deceptive way. Of course dreams may reveal hidden truths! Entirely reasonable that the subconscious might bubble up in a dream. Grouping that with predicting the future is just wrong.

On the bigfoot et. al. front considering the huge number of semi-mythical creatures I fully expect that sooner or later one of them will be found to have roots in reality. But I'm not expecting it to be Nessie. In general I'd say the larger the less likely. (One could argue this has already happened with a few creatures, it is just that as soon as something is found it leaves the world of legend. Go back a few centruries and Elephants and Camels fit, at least in some parts of the world).

Oh wait, just a little over 100 years ago for the centenial celebration in the U.S. they took a section from a sequoia tree, cut it into transportable pieces and reassembled it back east. It was considered a hoax. Ironic it was plant, not animal, but a 'recent' case.

One could argue that you are deliberately missing the point of what i said, but then.

 

[USincognito]

Nah, that's a misunderstand. What happened was Noah said to his sons, "We need to build us a big ol boat" You'all gofer wood.

Now there's a blast from the past. Have you been away for a while or is it just me?

 

[Catherineanne]

Or maybe you fail to grasp the significance of needing to believe in something, no matter how ridiculous those beliefs may be. As humans, we tend to fool ourselves and believe that which we want to. Evolutionary psychologists have done much reaserch suggesting how this came to be.

I do love the way some people talk about others, as if they are a different species. And talk about psychology, as if it contradicts faith; it doesn't. Psychology recognises faith as an important component in people's lives.

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something. If any one of us woke up one day, and found that all our beliefs had vanished overnight, we simply would not be able to get out of bed. Mankind has to be able to dream, has to be able to believe, has to be able to build castles in the air, before he can build castles on the ground.

This is as true of atheists as it is for believers of any faith. It is disingenous for atheists, who have their own nice cosy unprovable faith, to deny that it exists, and to then look down on the rest of us for having an unprovable faith. They think themselves superior, when in fact they are just the same.

They are a pot pointing to a kettle, and shouting; 'Black! Black!' The kettle simply looks back at the pot and laughs.

 

[BananaSlug]

I do love the way some people talk about others, as if they are a different species. And talk about psychology, as if it contradicts faith; it doesn't. Psychology recognises faith as an important component in people's lives.

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something. If any one of us woke up one day, and found that all our beliefs had vanished overnight, we simply would not be able to get out of bed. Mankind has to be able to dream, has to be able to believe, has to be able to build castles in the air, before he can build castles on the ground.

This is as true of atheists as it is for believers of any faith. It is disingenous for atheists, who have their own nice cosy unprovable faith, to deny that it exists, and to then look down on the rest of us for having an unprovable faith. They think themselves superior, when in fact they are just the same.

They are a pot pointing to a kettle, and shouting; 'Black! Black!' The kettle simply looks back at the pot and laughs.

Absence of belief=/=faith

 

[Catherineanne]

Absence of belief=/=faith

English not your first language, then?

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Now there's a blast from the past. Have you been away for a while or is it just me?

Hi US,

I got busy and decided to give up internet boards for a while. Nearly two years went by before I knew it.

Regards
F.B.

 

[Hespera]

I do love the way some people talk about others, as if they are a different species. And talk about psychology, as if it contradicts faith; it doesn't. Psychology recognises faith as an important component in people's lives.

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something. If any one of us woke up one day, and found that all our beliefs had vanished overnight, we simply would not be able to get out of bed. Mankind has to be able to dream, has to be able to believe, has to be able to build castles in the air, before he can build castles on the ground.

This is as true of atheists as it is for believers of any faith. It is disingenous for atheists, who have their own nice cosy unprovable faith, to deny that it exists, and to then look down on the rest of us for having an unprovable faith. They think themselves superior, when in fact they are just the same.

They are a pot pointing to a kettle, and shouting; 'Black! Black!' The kettle simply looks back at the pot and laughs.

Of course faith is an important part of some peoples life. For others, astrology or going fishing is. Or meditating. Meditating is real; but like faith, it says nothing except about the workings of the human mind, and psych knows that well, even if you missed that point.

The endless posturing of moral superiority on the part of Christians is something few of them will admit to, but is obvious to the rest of us regardless. Esp when they say that their god is the source of morality and without that a person has no basis or reason for morality.

Those atheists who are rude enough to act superior usually do so on the basis of things like education and rationality.

the theocreologists who bring up their moldy pratts over and over, 3rd grade ideas against grad school understanding look dumb, and if they detect a tinge of snottiness in the response they get, well, they earned it.

"we all have to believe in something" is one of those endlessly repeated phrases, just like it meant anything at all. Theists trying to equate the understanding that atheists have with their own quaint notions is definitely a case of trying to call the other black. At least its admitting what they are.
The next step is to quit pretending we are like them. We are not.


"We all believe in something" as if knowing without wondering if it will be true that we will find there is still air to breathe in the morning is somehow equivalent to belief in sky daddy. its not. We are not like you.

Atheism btw is not a faith. I know that is a tough concept, and that its "cosy" to think it, but actually, we are not like you.

 

[Hespera]

English not your first language, then?

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something.

English is my second language, but I I speak it better than most Americans do.

Absence of belief in a god is not faith.

Unless maybe you want to include that not believing in Santa, Atlantis, secret base on the moon, Nessie and the Seven Cities of Gold is also 'faith".

One reason that those free of the "god" problem that theists have find the talk of "faith' boring and tiresome is that the theists have no idea what the word means. It might as well be "stuff" or, "thingie".

"We all believe in something" is just as bankrupt as "faith".
Completely worthless thing to say.

 

[BananaSlug]

English not your first language, then?

Yes it is. I do not believe in God. As an atheist, I lack a belief in God. I don't have faith in any higher power. I am assuming English is not your first language if you confuse "lack of belief" with "faith".

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something.

Bottom line; no we don't.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

I do love the way some people talk about others, as if they are a different species. And talk about psychology, as if it contradicts faith; it doesn't. Psychology recognises faith as an important component in people's lives.

Bottom line; we all have to believe in something. If any one of us woke up one day, and found that all our beliefs had vanished overnight, we simply would not be able to get out of bed. Mankind has to be able to dream, has to be able to believe, has to be able to build castles in the air, before he can build castles on the ground.

This is as true of atheists as it is for believers of any faith. It is disingenous for atheists, who have their own nice cosy unprovable faith, to deny that it exists, and to then look down on the rest of us for having an unprovable faith. They think themselves superior, when in fact they are just the same.

They are a pot pointing to a kettle, and shouting; 'Black! Black!' The kettle simply looks back at the pot and laughs.

Please point out where I stated that pyschology contradicts faith.

Faith (hope), is a very important part of our of our pysche. That was my point exactly. We do need reasons for hope. It does help us get out of bed in the morning.

However, faith/hope should be based on reasonable things. If the only thing that gets you motivated in the morning is your religious faith, then I suggest you have a belief in a feeble god.

You misunderstand what it means to be atheist. Simply, one rejects the notion that there is a supernatural being. It is not a faith in something, as your faith in god is. Atheists do not place a faith in no faith. This should not be too hard to get. As a Christian, I assume you believe in only one god, not all the thousands of others god people have worshipped since recorded history. Atheists just go one god farther. Not too much of a stretch is it?

 

[Catherineanne]

Yes it is. I do not believe in God. As an atheist, I lack a belief in God. I don't have faith in any higher power. I am assuming English is not your first language if you confuse "lack of belief" with "faith".



Bottom line; no we don't.

Who said anything about a higher power? I said anything, not anyone.

If it is not the case that English is your second language, then it must be the case that you are somewhat cerebrally challenged. If you think anyone can survive life without any belief in anything whatever, then you quite simply are delusional.

Clearly we all have different gods, but none of us can do without them altogether. For your information, here are a few modern gods;

Humanity. Celebrity. Materialism. Prosperity. Family. Politics. Environmentalism. Radicalism. Conservatism. Animal rights. Human rights. Democracy.

If you want to know what are your own personal beliefs - and we all have them - consider what causes you would be willing to lay your life down for, if push came to shove. In my case it would be my family, and my faith. Not much else, to be honest. Other people might choose differently, of course.

As I said, we all have to believe in something. Atheists are not people without belief; they are simply people who believe there is no God, alongside whatever other beliefs they have. And among these beliefs, there will be some logic, a lot of emotion, and precious little scientific rigour. Atheists are only human, the same as the rest of us.

 

[BananaSlug]

Who said anything about a higher power? I said anything, not anyone.

If it is not the case that English is your second language, then it must be the case that you are somewhat cerebrally challenged. If you think anyone can survive life without any belief in anything whatever, then you quite simply are delusional.

Why? Why do you think we need to believe in something to survive? You don't need a complex belief system or faith of any sort to get by day to day.

Clearly we all have different gods, but none of us can do without them altogether. For your information, here are a few modern gods;

Humanity. Celebrity. Materialism. Prosperity. Family. Politics. Environmentalism. Radicalism. Conservatism. Animal rights. Human rights. Democracy.

So you would consider those to be gods?

If you want to know what are your own personal beliefs - and we all have them - consider what causes you would be willing to lay your life down for, if push came to shove. In my case it would be my family, and my faith. Not much else, to be honest. Other people might choose differently, of course.

Family. Considering all humans are 99.9% identical every person is a part of our family. Altruism has a biological foundation, as does every other behavior of ours.

As I said, we all have to believe in something. Atheists are not people without belief; they are simply people who believe there is no God, alongside whatever other beliefs they have. And among these beliefs, there will be some logic, a lot of emotion, and precious little scientific rigour. Atheists are only human, the same as the rest of us.

I agree that most people have beliefs. I disagree with the statement that everybody believes in something. Belief is not important to survival.

 

[Catherineanne]

Of course faith is an important part of some peoples life. For others, astrology or going fishing is. Or meditating. Meditating is real; but like faith, it says nothing except about the workings of the human mind, and psych knows that well, even if you missed that point.

The endless posturing of moral superiority on the part of Christians is something few of them will admit to, but is obvious to the rest of us regardless. Esp when they say that their god is the source of morality and without that a person has no basis or reason for morality.

Certainly some Christians regard morality as a function of faith, and certainly it ought to be, but far too often it isn't. I happen not to be one of them, but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a sweeping generalisation?

Those atheists who are rude enough to act superior usually do so on the basis of things like education and rationality.

Not in my experience. As far as I can see, anyone - theist or atheist - who assumes a superior position will do so on the basis of misinformation and bigotry. Starting with telling us why we are too dim to understand what is clear as day to them, and then heading downhill from there.

Educated people do not need to assume superiority because they understand that in this world the more we learn the less we actually can claim to know. In my experience they will therefore tend to underplay their knowledge, rather than flaunt it.

the theocreologists who bring up their moldy pratts over and over, 3rd grade ideas against grad school understanding look dumb, and if they detect a tinge of snottiness in the response they get, well, they earned it.

So it is ok to be snotty to creationists because they are stupid? Isn't that kind of response only going to entrench their positions even more? Surely the best proof of an informed opinion is the ability to retain a civil, adult approach, however dim you might consider the person you are addressing?

"we all have to believe in something" is one of those endlessly repeated phrases, just like it meant anything at all.

Thanks. Nice attitude.

Theists trying to equate the understanding that atheists have with their own quaint notions is definitely a case of trying to call the other black. At least its admitting what they are.
The next step is to quit pretending we are like them. We are not.

Clearly not. You are obviously a higher being altogether, evolved at least a couple of steps higher up the evolutionary tree.

Good luck with that.

"We all believe in something" as if knowing without wondering if it will be true that we will find there is still air to breathe in the morning is somehow equivalent to belief in sky daddy. its not. We are not like you.

At this point, I can only thank God for that.

Atheism btw is not a faith. I know that is a tough concept, and that its "cosy" to think it, but actually, we are not like you.

Who are you trying to convince with this reiteration, exactly?

Here is some science for you. There is only one species of human being, not two. You are not superior just because you reject traditional faith systems; you have simply replaced faith in God with faith in something else. I don't care how logical you think you are, you are still human, and you cannot ever be anything else.

Good luck, again.

 

[Catherineanne]

Please point out where I stated that pyschology contradicts faith.

Faith (hope), is a very important part of our of our pysche. That was my point exactly. We do need reasons for hope. It does help us get out of bed in the morning.

Faith and hope are not the same, but at least we are starting to find some areas of agreement. That has to be a start.

However, faith/hope should be based on reasonable things. If the only thing that gets you motivated in the morning is your religious faith, then I suggest you have a belief in a feeble god.

How supremely arrogant. Imagine for a moment there is someone in, say Tibet, who believes in a branch of Buddhism. What difference does it make to you whether that belief is 'feeble', as you put it, or not? If that person, in that life, has a faith which enables him to get up in the morning, work all day, put food on the table, and sleep at night, then who on earth do you think you are to sneer at that as somehow inadequate, just because he happens not to have been born into a country whose gods are materialism, avarice, science and naked ambition?

Frankly, I would take his gods over ours any day.

You misunderstand what it means to be atheist. Simply, one rejects the notion that there is a supernatural being. It is not a faith in something, as your faith in god is. Atheists do not place a faith in no faith. This should not be too hard to get. As a Christian, I assume you believe in only one god, not all the thousands of others god people have worshipped since recorded history. Atheists just go one god farther. Not too much of a stretch is it?

Atheism is a belief. It is not an absence of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of belief.

However, retain your version if you prefer. I really am not bothered how you define your god.

 

[BananaSlug]

How supremely arrogant.

It is not being arrogant, that is what he believes and I agree with him.

Imagine for a moment there is someone in, say Tibet, who believes in a branch of Buddhism. What difference does it make to you whether that belief is 'feeble', as you put it, or not?

What difference does it make to you if we think a belief is "feeble" or not? You are doing the same thing that you claim we are doing.

If that person, in that life, has a faith which enables him to get up in the morning, work all day, put food on the table, and sleep at night, then who on earth do you think you are to sneer at that as somehow inadequate, just because he happens not to have been born into a country whose gods are materialism, avarice, science and naked ambition?

We don't sneer at them. We just think religion is pointless. I don't think any less of someone because of their religion regardless of what it is. Ignorance is regardless of belief.

Frankly, I would take his gods over ours any day.

Technically Buddhism is atheistic though there are subsets that belief in the existence of deities.

Atheism is a belief. It is not an absence of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of belief.

So I believe that I do not believe in God? Does that mean you believe that you do not believe in Zeus, Horus, Krishna, or Odin?

However, retain your version if you prefer. I really am not bothered how you define your god.

Arrogance.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Faith and hope are not the same, but at least we are starting to find some areas of agreement. That has to be a start.



How supremely arrogant. Imagine for a moment there is someone in, say Tibet, who believes in a branch of Buddhism. What difference does it make to you whether that belief is 'feeble', as you put it, or not? If that person, in that life, has a faith which enables him to get up in the morning, work all day, put food on the table, and sleep at night, then who on earth do you think you are to sneer at that as somehow inadequate, just because he happens not to have been born into a country whose gods are materialism, avarice, science and naked ambition?

Frankly, I would take his gods over ours any day.



Atheism is a belief. It is not an absence of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of belief.

However, retain your version if you prefer. I really am not bothered how you define your god.

Actaully, agnosticism is the belief that one cannot ever know.
Atheism is rejection of the idea of a god or gods. For the same reasons you reject the claims of the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or Poseidon, are the exact reasons atheists reject the idea of the god of Abraham.

The beliefs of others do not generally matter to me, unless of course religious piety attempts to restrict or prevent what is moral.

As for dying for your faith. I find that statement repulsive. You would willingly die for a god you have never seen, only to deprive your family and loved ones? Really?

 

[pgp_protector]

Atheism is never ever thinking about a god, (unless you're on a religious forum)
Atheism is a belief just as not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Agnosticism is just another word for sitting on the fence, a 'don't know'.
If there were no religions it would not effect Atheists one jot.
The only time I think about Atheism is when someone asks 'do I believe there is a god' and I say no.
Atheism means never needing to pray or say 'grace'.
Atheism for me means my god does not exist.
Atheism means I do not have a god in my head.
Atheism means I know I'm going to die when I die.
Everyone has a god except an Atheist.
An Atheist is a person who believes in one less god than you.
Atheism is a non prophet organisation.

Ah ha !! so you do have a god

 

[SkyWriting]

Experience with real wooden ships sailing in real oceans indicates that Noah's ark would not have survived many days, if any days, of the 40 day storm.
Noah's ark - that that boat don't float.

A number of models have been built and are quite stable.
But stress and strength of modern construction is not actually an issue.

There was no storm.

God, being the true designer of the vessel, was also aware of the upcoming
voyage and knew what, IF ANY, waves would hit the boat.
He engineered the boat to fit the flood waters perfectly.
Not an ounce of wood extra was needed as HE controlled the waters as
well. God also could control the swelling of the wood, which makes wood
hulls watertight. Any leakage would come from construction errors.
Again, (with a little faith), we can rule out construction errors and any leakage.

It's been discovered, thank you "Science", that mammals,
and possibly ALL animals have the ability to hibernate when
placed in the dark. God brought all the animals into the Ark.
Many animals naturally hibernate in such closed conditions.
To figure that they ALL did is not to much to imagine.
After all, God caused them to come into the Ark, not Noah.
SO little, if any, care was needed for the animals.

Add in that the giant Chinese wooden boats worked fine without any of the
advantages of perfect knowledge of the water conditions.

The Bible doesn't even insist that the Ark got wet from rain and says
nothing about the boat being hit with any waves.

So even a failure of a modern wooden boat in the ocean does not duplicate
the potentially mild conditions of the Ark's voyage.

Even a rock will float with proper engineering or on calm enough water.
The Dutch Concrete Canoe Challenge

Under controlled conditions, the Ark works just fine.