Salvation and the Trinity

[IreneAdler]

I don't consider the bible the only place to get utterance from Iahovah. Not to mention I never said it wasn't important, I said that there were many things deemed essential to salvation that are not in reality, in my mind, essential.

 

[it'sme]

Jews call it avodah zarah - idolatry

if you were talking about the pole or as later Christians since Constatine have called it the cross, your right it is idolatry.
It is like worshiping the knife that killed someone.

 

[IreneAdler]

no, I meant worshiping Christ. (guess I'm practicing avodah zarah). I do have strange mixed feelings about crosses myself. So I understand your views on that as well.

 

[it'sme]

no, I meant worshiping Christ. (guess I'm practicing avodah zarah). I do have strange mixed feelings about crosses myself. So I understand your views on that as well.

Yes OK.
One thing to think about is, that the bible is not really divided by the OT and NT. It really one book, and should be looked at that way.
The prophecies about Jesus and the time of the end are just as important in the Hebrew scriptures as the Greek. And this goes for many Chrsitains as well as, in that the Hebrew scriptures, are about preparing man for Jesus and the end of this system of things.
The bible is beyond anything man could come up with.

 

[IreneAdler]

I agree on that as well. Again, not stating otherwise, just saying man's assertion of what makes and breaks salvation is skewed by pride.

 

[it'sme]

I agree on that as well. Again, not stating otherwise, just saying man's assertion of what makes and breaks salvation is skewed by pride.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

From this scripture it is important to note that not all that say they believe Jesus, will be saved.
So you have to think about, why this is true.

Matthew 7 :13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

Again you have to ask yourself, why will only a few find it.
It 's just like Noah, 8 out of about one million( approximately) people actually survived. The reason Noah did was that he knew and did what God expected of him. So this isn't just a casual acquaintance Noah had with God, but strong bond with knowledge.

 

[IreneAdler]

It's true because well, it is. I'm not sure why you ask. Everyone knows someone who's faithful only in action and not in heart.

Noah survived because he had a heart for God in a world that did not. Not necessarily strictly because of "obedience" in the proper sense, and CERTAINLY not because he read scripture and understood it. The primary mode of determining ones eternal life is relationship with God. Noah, Moses, etc prove that before the scriptures were set as such.

 

[it'sme]

It's true because well, it is. I'm not sure why you ask. Everyone knows someone who's faithful only in action and not in heart.

Noah survived because he had a heart for God in a world that did not. Not necessarily strictly because of "obedience" in the proper sense, and CERTAINLY not because he read scripture and understood it. The primary mode of determining ones eternal life is relationship with God. Noah, Moses, etc prove that before the scriptures were set as such.

Well Noah
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.
9 This is the history of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God.

2 Peter 2: 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;

God asked Noah to build the Ark, which took 40 years. Noah also did preaching, to the people around him. But no one listened to him.

This flood account pictures our day

36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

So this says that people will just be living their lives and they will take no note , until it is too late.
So just like Noah's day if you want to survive you have to be doing the things God wants. Not what we want. He acutally has work for us to do.
When Jesus comes ( notice the bible uses the word presence here.) If you are not doing the work required, then you would be the same as the people at Noah's time. They didn't take any note of the signs, and just kept living our life , without doing God will.
The flood actually showed that God would bring to destruction to the whole world of mankind, and it would be very few who make it.
So we have to study and know what these things are that God wants us to do, and how to live.
That is why in an earlier post I said it is scary, to you say , we don't need to get an understanding of God.



So why Noah, and why no some other . that were around at that time.

 

[IreneAdler]

faultless/perfect (tam) - mature in thought and action, whole, finished, completed - better translation is complete not flawless
Righteousness (tesadiyq) - tsadiyq is commonly paralleled with the word "rasha". Rasha is usually translated as "wicked" but has a concrete meaning of "to depart from the path and become lost". From this we can conclude that a tsadiyq is one who remains on the path. The path is the course through life which God has outlined for us
SO... Noah was a man who stayed on the path God outlined for him... (not somehow denying relationship with God nor indicating obedience to rules since really there was a severe lack of rules at that point in biblical history) He proved himself to be mature in thought and action among his contemporaries.... yeah... I'm failing to see where this shows me somehow that Noah wouldn't have been chosen.
He was mature, he had relationship and he did the things that pleased God (and how did he know what pleased God - not scripture because there was none, it was because of relationship which is what I have asserted... not sure why you went off on things unrelated to what I said) Noah showed his faithfulness by building the ark AFTER this was already established.
I.e. the bible is not the only way to know God's will, nor is obedience only found in its pages because in the days of Moses and Noah there was none
I'm not denying study is valuable, but by no means is it essential to know God nor to meet his expectations. I am not sure how this doesn't show that the "work required" does not have to be written down, and in fact, was not written down at the time of many major events in biblical history.

 

[Der Alte]

Ha ah. Sorry I just had to laugh at that statement.
That thread was in a
http://www.christianforums.com/t7421595-54/
About the cross.

Ha, ha my foot. I refuted all your so-called evidence in that thread, at least twice, and you have ignored it every time. For example, you copy/pasted two sources, twice, both of which claimed that the so-called "mystic Tau" was the symbol of Tammuz, in Chaldean and Babylonian religions, and that was supposedly why Christians adopted it. The truth is, which you have ignored, both Chaldean and Babylonian writing was cuneiform, and hieroglyphics. Neither writing system ever had a letter Tau, mystic or any other kind. Also the deity referred to as Tammuz was only called that by the Jews. In Chaldean and Babylonian, his name was Dumuzi.

The Code of Hammurabi consisted of a collection of the laws and edicts of the Babylonian King Hammurabi, and the earliest legal code known in its entirety. A copy of the code, engraved on a block of black diorite nearly 2.4 m (8 ft) high, was unearthed by a team of French archaeologists at Susa, Iraq, formerly ancient Elam, during the winter of 1901-2. The block, broken in three pieces, has been restored and is now in the Louvre in Paris.

Composition of the Code:

The divine origin of the written law is emphasized by a bas-relief in which the king is depicted receiving the code from the sun god, Shamash. The quality most usually associated with this god is justice. The code is set down in horizontal columns of cuneiform writing: 16 columns of text on the obverse side and 28 on the reverse. The text begins with a prologue that explains the extensive restoration of the temples and religious cults of Babylonia and Assyria. The code itself, composed of 28 paragraphs, seems to be a series of amendments to the common law of Babylonia, rather than a strict legal code. It begins with direction for legal procedure and the statement of penalties for unjust accusations, false testimony, and injustice done by judges; then follow laws concerning property rights, loans, deposits, debts, domestic property, and family rights. The sections covering personal injury indicate that penalties were imposed for injuries sustained through unsuccessful operations by physicians and for damages caused by neglect in various trades. Rates are fixed in the code for various forms of service in most branches of trade and commerce.

Babylonian - Tower of Babel​

See also.
The Academy and literature - Google Books

Why humans cooperate: a cultural and ... - Google Books

Encyclopedia Brittanica

CHALDAEA . The expressions "Chaldaea" and "Chaldaeans" are frequently used in the Old Testament as equivalents for " Babylonia " and " Babylonians."


CHALDAEA - Online Information article about CHALDAEA​

 

[IreneAdler]

Der, can you not shrink the posts, I can't read them. (maybe just not quite so small) I'd really appreciate it. (it's a pain in the butt to go back and forth sometimes on posts)

 

[it'sme]

Ha, ha my foot. I refuted all your so-called evidence in that thread, at least twice, and you have ignored it every time. For example, you copy/pasted two sources, twice, both of which claimed that the so-called "mystic Tau" was the symbol of Tammuz, in Chaldean and Babylonian religions, and that was supposedly why Christians adopted it. The truth is, which you have ignored, both Chaldean and Babylonian writing was cuneiform, and hieroglyphics. Neither writing system ever had a letter Tau, mystic or any other kind. Also the deity referred to as Tammuz was only called that by the Jews. In Chaldean and Babylonian, his name was Dumuzi.

You take this over to the other thread, if you want to contiune that there.

 

[Der Alte]

Der, can you not shrink the posts, I can't read them. (maybe just not quite so small) I'd really appreciate it. (it's a pain in the butt to go back and forth sometimes on posts)

Click "View", then "Zoom," then "Zoom In", or "Ctrl and +."

 

[it'sme]

faultless/perfect (tam) - mature in thought and action, whole, finished, completed - better translation is complete not flawless
Righteousness (tesadiyq) - tsadiyq is commonly paralleled with the word "rasha". Rasha is usually translated as "wicked" but has a concrete meaning of "to depart from the path and become lost". From this we can conclude that a tsadiyq is one who remains on the path. The path is the course through life which God has outlined for us
SO... Noah was a man who stayed on the path God outlined for him... (not somehow denying relationship with God nor indicating obedience to rules since really there was a severe lack of rules at that point in biblical history) He proved himself to be mature in thought and action among his contemporaries.... yeah... I'm failing to see where this shows me somehow that Noah wouldn't have been chosen.
He was mature, he had relationship and he did the things that pleased God (and how did he know what pleased God - not scripture because there was none, it was because of relationship which is what I have asserted... not sure why you went off on things unrelated to what I said) Noah showed his faithfulness by building the ark AFTER this was already established.
I.e. the bible is not the only way to know God's will, nor is obedience only found in its pages because in the days of Moses and Noah there was none
I'm not denying study is valuable, but by no means is it essential to know God nor to meet his expectations. I am not sure how this doesn't show that the "work required" does not have to be written down, and in fact, was not written down at the time of many major events in biblical history.

Yes Noah did stay on the path that was pleasing to God. But no other people on the earth at that time, did. Why? It was because Noah did what God wanted. He and his family wee the only ones. Noah talked to the people around him, they could have also helped him. But none did. There was only one way, and Noah and his family were the only ones that followed that.
With the nation of the Jews that was the only way at that time. And they were always deviating, from God's way. And as the bible was being written, we have more and more examples of how people, even of God chosen people, were deviating. Until Jesus came and started from scratch one by one, getting people on the correct path again. And He even cast off the Jews as a chosen people and opened things up for all people.
People have this mistaken idea that anything goes, but the bible history does not show that.
Now we have the bible, and it is Gods word. And there is no other way.
And as I showed earlier that even ones that claim to be Christian, were not known by God. So what we do and what we have knowledge of is very important.

 

[Der Alte]

You take this over to the other thread, if you want to contiune that there.

I have, when are you going to start addressing my evidence? If you want more evidence about Chaldea/Babylon click on the home page of the online Encyclopedia Britannica and read the article on Babylonia. As I said, neither culture had an alphabet, therefore no letter Tau, mystic or any other kind.

 

[it'sme]

I have, when are you going to start addressing my evidence? If you want more evidence about Chaldea/Babylon click on the home page of the online Encyclopedia Britannica and read the article on Babylonia. As I said, neither culture had an alphabet, therefore no letter Tau, mystic or any other kind.

I did it is in the other thread.

 

[RMDY]

The Trinity.....


Where should I begin. I appologize for not reading all the previous posts before this one.

In nature, three-in-one does exist. Here are some examples:

1) All are aware that water is "one," yet it is manifested in three forms -- liquid, ice, and vapour.

2) Time is "one," yet it has a three-fold dimension -- past, present, and future.

3) THe sun is "one" and yet is has a three-fold manifestation --- light, heat and fire.

4) Electricity is "one" but it too has a three-fold manifestation -- motion, light, and heat.

5) Science tells us that every beam of light has three rays -- the actinic (which is invisible), the luminiferous (which is visible) and the calorific (which gives off heat).

6) The universe is "one" and is composed of three basic elements -- space, matter, and time. Space is composed of three dimensions -- length, breadth, and height. Space is therefore THREE IN ONE. Matter itself is produced by the three-fold manifestation of energy, motion and phenomena.

7) The human personality is "one," but it involves the three-fold use of the will, intellect, and affections. Man's body has three distinct systems in it -- the nervous system, the circulatory system, and the digestive system. Yet these three distinctive systems are each propelled by the one life force. The Bible tells us that man is made in the image of God (Gen 1:27). Consequently man himself is a trinity -- spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23).





That, my friends, was from a book I am currently reading that talks about the Trinity.



And here is my personal take: A person has three ways to refer to himself --- me, myself, and I --- yet they are three in one.

 

[Simonline]

I see everyone debating weather God is a Triune or not but this is a discussion I have had before that depending on the place could be very interesting and more off the beaten path in regards to most Trinity discussions. The question is "Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian" meaning must you believe in a Triune Godhead to be saved? Now I don't have much to say on this matter other than NO I don't think a belief in the trinity is nesecary..I believe its perfectly possible to be Christian with no doubt and NOT believe in the Trinity, the Gospel message that is proclaimed that you must believe in order to be considered saved and part of Gods flock is simply this "Trust in Jesus Christ and Lord and Saviour and repent of your sins" nothing about the Triune. But my answer I know isn't that complex and I believe that others can add more to this discussion, Have fun guys.

You're missing the point completely. The issue is not whether a person must believe in the Tri-Personal Nature of the Creator (as if it were a contest between two opposing subjective opinions - whether to believe that the Creator Exists as Mono-Personal or Tri-Personal) but rather which belief actually corresponds with reality. Does the Creator actually Exist as Mono-Personal or does He Exist as Tri-Personal? That is the real issue and the answer must be based exclusively on the Divine Revelation that is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. It is not a question of opinion but of reality. Since the Creator cannot Exist as both Mono-Personal and Tri-Personal then one of those two beliefs must be correct whilst the other must be incorrect.

To any honest student of the Scriptures all the evidence taken together (as distinct from specific texts taken out of context to form a pretext (i.e. taken in isolation)) strongly supports the belief that the Creator exists as Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal. On that basis, to arbitrarily believe that the Creator exists as Mono-Personal rather than Tri-Personal is to believe something that, on the basis of the entire corpus of Divine Revelation, simply isn't true.

Thus the rejection, denial and suppression of the truth concerning the Personal Nature of the Divine Creator precludes one from being a true believer in the authentic Divine Creator and instead renders one an idolator in an idol (albeit an intellectual one) that doesn't actually exist in reality?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

The Trinity.....


Where should I begin. I appologize for not reading all the previous posts before this one.

In nature, three-in-one does exist. Here are some examples:

1) All are aware that water is "one," yet it is manifested in three forms -- liquid, ice, and vapour.

This is a bad illustration for the purpose of affirming the Trinity. H2O cannot simultaneously exist as vapour, liquid and ice as the Creator simultaneously exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The H2O illustration actually affirms the modalistic or Sabellian heresy.

2) Time is "one," yet it has a three-fold dimension -- past, present, and future.

Are you sure that that is objectively true (in which case why for the Creator is Time only the Eternal 'Now') or is it simply a matter of finite perception?

3) The sun is "one" and yet is has a three-fold manifestation --- light, heat and fire.

But are the manifestations the same as the one that manifests?

4) Electricity is "one" but it too has a three-fold manifestation -- motion, light, and heat.

Same question as above.

5) Science tells us that every beam of light has three rays -- the actinic (which is invisible), the luminiferous (which is visible) and the calorific (which gives off heat).

Then surely it is only the luminiferous beam that constitutes 'light'?

6) The universe is "one" and is composed of three basic elements -- space, matter, and time. Space is composed of three dimensions -- length, breadth, and height. Space is therefore THREE IN ONE. Matter itself is produced by the three-fold manifestation of energy, motion and phenomena.

Space is composed of four dimensions not three. What about depth?

7) The human personality is "one," but it involves the three-fold use of the will, intellect, and affections. Man's body has three distinct systems in it -- the nervous system, the circulatory system, and the digestive system. Yet these three distinctive systems are each propelled by the one life force. The Bible tells us that man is made in the image of God (Gen 1:27). Consequently man himself is a trinity -- spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23).

Man is made in the likeness of the Creator but that does not mean that he is finitely tri-personal since for man that would be schizophrenia. It simply means that he is personal (with all the responsibilities and priviledges that being personal entails).

That, my friends, was from a book I am currently reading that talks about the Trinity.

You probably need to get a better book (the Scriptures?)

And here is my personal take: A person has three ways to refer to himself --- me, myself, and I --- yet they are three in one.

Not really. They are just three tenses for the same Person rather than three persons simultaneously existing as a single entity?

Simonline.

 

[Yab Yum]

"Trinity" is to "person" as "cube" is to "line".

Explore the possibility that God cannot be captured by our limited little concepts of "is"/"is not"/"both"/"neither".