Salvation and the Trinity

[2ducklow]

I just think you're arguing something that truely comes down to interpretation. whether it CAN mean one or the other doesn't definitively show it DID mean one or the other. The whole argument of trinity or not shouldn't just weigh on one concept. That's all. This particular argument IMO isn't compelling enough to make someone lean one way or the other (at least not me - and I've pondered this issue in depth myself) nor doees it really relate to the OPs question of whether you can be Christian and non Trin.

Most all trinitarians believe that you have to believe the trinity to be saved or at least believe that Jesus is God to be saved. The argument is that since Jesus is God (in their opinon) then if you don't believe Jesus is God then you can't know him , therefore, you can't be saved. Of course I, who doesn't believe JEsus is god, do not buy that argument.

You have no scripture saying Jesus is god or saying anything about a trinity, so any argument that belief in Jesus as god is extra biblical.

 

[IreneAdler]

Most all trinitarians also hold to creeds which to me are silly as a model for the saved to be saved as well. Personally I think it's not explicit enough to be essential.

 

[it'sme]

So you're saying Jesus is the first result of all creation. You're saying firstborn means first result.
First creation of all creation is different than first result of all creation. Which one do you mean?

Actually, what do you mean? The first created means, the first created.

 

[it'sme]

Am I the only person who thinks that modern definitions of old phrases from a different language translated into English is kinda pointless to argue about?

Accurate knowledge is important.
2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

The bible is inspired that means no contradictions.
So when the bible says

Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

orPsalms 146 : 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish

That means there is no spirits or knowledge when a person is dead. So that also means no hell, no torment and no dead people wondering around.
But the bible is written in very symbolic language, so it takes a lot of study to understand it.

 

[it'sme]

I just think you're arguing something that truely comes down to interpretation. whether it CAN mean one or the other doesn't definitively show it DID mean one or the other. The whole argument of trinity or not shouldn't just weigh on one concept.

This is a good comment, because the problem is that many have different interpretations, of the bible. But what does God think?
The truth is that the bible interprets itself. That is the real way to look at it.
That is how God gives it to the ones he wants.

 

[IreneAdler]

Accurate knowledge is great, but again, the chasm between the use of the words and the modern dictionary is astronomical.

 

[IreneAdler]

This is a good comment, because the problem is that many have different interpretations, of the bible. But what does God think?
The truth is that the bible interprets itself. That is the real way to look at it.
That is how God gives it to the ones he wants.

I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying but if that is the case then close to 100% of practicing Christians are wrong because interpretations are like freckles... everyone has at least one, and often hundreds, that don't look like anyone elses, even if they're related.

 

[Der Alte]

Accurate knowledge is great, but again, the chasm between the use of the words and the modern dictionary is astronomical.

Which is why most Bible scholars do not rely on modern dictionaries but the lexicons and grammars of the Biblical languages. Also helpful are the ancient writings such as the ECF. Which, OBTW, are rejected outright by all post 19th century false religions.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]This pagan beleif in the Trinity came into Christianity, with Constantine in the 3rd. century, the same time the cross was introduced.

Totally false! Constantine did absolutely NOTHING in the 3rd century which related to the church. Constantine was an Arian, his beliefs were very similar to the JWs. The cross, NOT a simple stake, was recognized as the implement upon which the Romans crucified Jesus, in the first century. I provided links to archaeological evidence, twice, in another thread, but you have ignored it. Evidently you would rather continue to believe the lies of the WTBS than truth which you can verify with your own eyes.

 

[2ducklow]

Most all trinitarians also hold to creeds which to me are silly as a model for the saved to be saved as well. Personally I think it's not explicit enough to be essential.

I agree that trinity has nothing to do with whether one is or isn't saved. I would also say that most trinitarians don't even bring up the subject of trinity in the context of what one needs to do to be saved. They only say belief in trinity is essential if you ask them. I have gone to, and been a member of trinitarian churches, and the numerous ones I attended almost never even mentioned the word trinity. Course I went to trinitarian pentecostal and charismatic churches, it might be different in a catholic or presbeterian church. I think most people in trintiarian churches don't want to discusss it because it is so confusing. they just beieve it for the most part and leave it at that. it's like a given to them.

 

[IreneAdler]

they like to bring up the N. Creed is the only reason I say that (and frankly mostly here on CF is where I've seen it). Trinitarianism is rampant in that particular creed.

 

[IreneAdler]

and I think anything that's a "given" is a scary thing. seek and you will find and all that good stuff. Even if your given ends up being true, seeking is important.

 

[2ducklow]

Actually, what do you mean? The first created means, the first created.

you said Jesus is the first creation, and that first creation means firstborn of all creation. then you quoted the def. of firstborn in english so I assumed you meant that firstborn meant result not firstborn.

If you believe Jesus is the result of all creation, why not say that instead of first creation? IF you believe that JEsus is the product of all creation why not say that instead of the first creation. IF your definiton of firstborn has nothing to do with the discussion then obviously you don't want to deal with the topic of how firstborn of all creation means first creation.

 

[it'sme]

I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying but if that is the case then close to 100% of practicing Christians are wrong because interpretations are like freckles... everyone has at least one, and often hundreds, that don't look like anyone elses, even if they're related.

Ha Ha I had lots of freckles when I was a kid.
Though we are imperfect and have different personalities, there is still really only one truth. But as individuals with different levels of spirituality and knowledge, there is only still one truth. It's not that we are perfect and don't think wrong thoughts or do wrong things, but the bible is constant.
But the time of the end is a special time with special knowledge , that will be revealed at that time.
So to study and search is what we are to do. Especially now.

 

[it'sme]

I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying but if that is the case then close to 100% of practicing Christians are wrong because interpretations are like freckles... everyone has at least one, and often hundreds, that don't look like anyone elses, even if they're related.

Ha Ha I had lots of freckles when I was a kid.
Yes were are all different. But Gods word is the same to all. And there should be no divsion. Otherwise God is divided.
So when Jesus came to the earth, he cast off the chosen nation and started over. One by one.
There should be unity in the congregations all over the world. All with the same thoughts, from God. Not our own.

sorry this is a duplicate post, I had to reboot in the middle of it . I didn't know if it went through the first time.

 

[it'sme]

Totally false! Constantine did absolutely NOTHING in the 3rd century which related to the church. Constantine was an Arian, his beliefs were very similar to the JWs. The cross, NOT a simple stake, was recognized as the implement upon which the Romans crucified Jesus, in the first century. I provided links to archaeological evidence, twice, in another thread, but you have ignored it. Evidently you would rather continue to believe the lies of the WTBS than truth which you can verify with your own eyes.

Ha ah. Sorry I just had to laugh at that statement.
That thread was in a
http://www.christianforums.com/t7421595-54/
About the cross.

 

[IreneAdler]

I agree. Truth is truth and isn't skewed by opinions or changing times, etc. Unfortunately I'm not sure that we'll know 100% of truth while we're here because we're human and flawed and subject to pride and vanity. So... there ya go. The reason I dismiss most things as essential for salvation.

 

[it'sme]

I agree that trinity has nothing to do with whether one is or isn't saved. I would also say that most trinitarians don't even bring up the subject of trinity in the context of what one needs to do to be saved. They only say belief in trinity is essential if you ask them. I have gone to, and been a member of trinitarian churches, and the numerous ones I attended almost never even mentioned the word trinity. Course I went to trinitarian pentecostal and charismatic churches, it might be different in a catholic or presbeterian church. I think most people in trintiarian churches don't want to discusss it because it is so confusing. they just beieve it for the most part and leave it at that. it's like a given to them.

That is probably pretty accurate assessment.
You know the Muslims , (they came from Christianity) they believe Jesus was a prophet, they laugh at Christianity , becasue of the Trinity. becasue it is a pagan belief.

 

[IreneAdler]

Jews call it avodah zarah - idolatry

 

[it'sme]

I agree. Truth is truth and isn't skewed by opinions or changing times, etc. Unfortunately I'm not sure that we'll know 100% of truth while we're here because we're human and flawed and subject to pride and vanity. So... there ya go. The reason I dismiss most things as essential for salvation.

That scares me when you say that.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. 2 After he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he felt hungry. 3 Also, the Tempter came and said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But in reply he said: “It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.

God utterances to use is his word the bible.
It really is important to know what it says.