Salvation and the Trinity

[467AIR]

Yes He was resurrected and needed the Father, Jesus was still on the earth and did only the Father's will and had not been glorified yet. No He was not in the same relationship as Mary magdalene He was God manifested in the flesh.

Why would God address the flesh of Jesus as God, he was not glorified?

So now where is your false doctrine of the second coming in scripture? It is not in scripture, and you cannot admit your are wrong. You dare not debate me on Lucifer because you know you are wrong and cannot prove it.




[quote=it'sme;54317918]I guess you still haven't go it. so I guess you think Jesus got it wrong.[/quote]

 

[it'sme]

Yes He was resurrected and needed the Father, Jesus was still on the earth and did only the Father's will and had not been glorified yet. No He was not in the same relationship as Mary magdalene He was God manifested in the flesh.

Why is it so important to keep the false stories , than follow what Jesus said?
It is very plain what he said here, and the rest of the bible backs this up. Jesus very plainly said this after his resurrection on his way to be with his Father, his God. Why do you want to change this, to mean something else.


John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


There is also this.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.



(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

This scripture only makes sense if Jesus is Gods Son. Then Jehovah is the only one that is most high, of the earth. So when Jesus says he has a God we know who that is, ...Jehovah.

 

[467AIR]

What false story are you talking about?

Your understanding of Lucifer/Satan which you can only criticize and not address me?

Or perhaps your false believe in the unscriptural term second coming which you refuse to address?

Until Jesus ascended He was not glorified so He could not be totally divine for He was still on earth.

Think of it this waythe Children of Israel could not look upon, God’s glory. Jesus is God , Jesus is God was manifested in human flesh.

It was the glory of God that men cannot look upon and see God,

Jesus had not been glorified.

On the Mount Moses saw God's glory in the glory cloud, the ark of God, the glory speaks of God not angel, this is where you are so wrong, angels are not glorious, God is glorious.

Any mention of angels and glory is in reference to God's glory not angels.

Carnal man are unable to see God’s glory; Jesus had to be God the spirit not God manifested in the flesh to be glorified.

When Jesus occupied the throne He is God, and God is one now that He is glorified.

Now He is just God and glorified..

I am not a Trinitarian, God is one not three persons, so what is your point?

Yes Jesus is God's son, He is also God manifested in the flesh.

Jehovah was never mentioned until the second chapter of Genesis, I already pointed this out.

Why is it so important to keep the false stories , than follow what Jesus said?
It is very plain what he said here, and the rest of the bible backs this up. Jesus very plainly said this after his resurrection on his way to be with his Father, his God. Why do you want to change this, to mean something else.


John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


There is also this.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.



(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

This scripture only makes sense if Jesus is Gods Son. Then Jehovah is the only one that is most high, of the earth. So when Jesus says he has a God we know who that is, ...Jehovah.

 

[it'sme]

What false story are you talking about?

The one about Jesus being Jehovah.
If you don't even know who Jehovah and Jesus are how do you expect to know anything about the bible. Plus the fact that when Jesus says something you don't believe it.
becasue Jesus said.

John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


It puts you in a very dangerous position. The evidence is indisputable that the dogma of the that Jesus is Jehovah is not found in the Bible, nor is it in harmony with what the Bible teaches. It grossly misrepresents the true God. Yet, Jesus Christ said: “The hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

1 John 2:22: “Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ [or, Messiah, anointed one]? This is the antichrist.”

 

[467AIR]

You quote JOHN 20:17 and you keep DWELLING ON THE LOWER LEVELS the flesh level with Jesus as I already pointed out. Jesus had not been glorified he was still in a body, the realm of God is spirit. Jesus was still earth bound.

1 Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

God is not going to glory His flesh, no flesh.

Jesus is God/Jehovah as well as well over the two hundred different names of God from Genesis to Revelation.

The name Jehovah was never used in scripture until Genesis 2 where both names of God Jehovah and Elohim were used. The word Jehovah, we see the righteous Judge. This was the aspect of God’s nature that the Jews considered the most important. They expected Jesus — if He were truly the Messiah — to pour some "fire and brimstone" judgments upon the Romans to deliver His people and set Himself up as king.

A suffering Saviour who came to free His people from the bondages of sin so that they could be partakers of His divine nature, did not appeal to them.

That was not how they saw God.

Sad to say, we are faced with the same attitude in the JW Kingdom Hall as well as the church system today. Whatever the denomination, the emphasis is on the nature of God as portrayed by His Name, Jehovah. This is almost the only aspect of His nature that they understand.

As I posted before the name Jehovah is first introduced in Genesis, chapter two. You will see here two names together:
(LORD God) or (Jehovah-Elohim) .

This means "Jehovah-Elohim." There is a very good reason why these two names should be linked. First, you must understand what aspect of God’s nature Jehovah depicts. First, in Elohim we see One whose Love works with His creation and overcomes all — no matter what its condition. His will prevails over all hindrances. There is no human condition so low that He cannot "save to the uttermost." In Elohim, we see the nature of God’s Being. And His Being is LOVE! (A mother’s love is a shadow of His great love). We could say that Elohim shows God loving unconditionally because His nature is LOVE. He "has sworn" to love us and to make us like Himself!

The name Jehovah reveals God as TRUTH — and the Truth that His nature is righteous is THE EXPRESSION OF HIS BEING. It shows love in its relation to certain qualities in the loved one. In all truest love there must be righteousness. Jer. 23:6 expresses the meaning of Jehovah very clearly: ". . . and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. And His people, even the New Jerusalem — those born from above — shall share His nature — for the Lord will also call them by this same name. ". . . .Jerusalemshall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, the Lord our righteousness" Jer. 33:16.
Jehovah loves righteousness because that is His true state of Being. Evil is not true being — but the negation of it — therefore evil is not eternal. Because evil is not true, it must be opposed and judged. He who "loves righteousness and hates iniquity" finds in all evil something atagonistic to His nature. Therefore, He must judge all evil until it is destroyed and "mortality is swallowed up of life." This is the lesson of the second name of God revealed to us.

Let us look at how our understanding of these aspects of God’s nature affect His people. We have met some followers of Christ who claim to be "sons", yet they feel they can live however they like and it doesn’t matter because God’s Love is unconditional. One young man said to us, "The Lord doesn’t care what I do in the flesh. He’s only interested in my spirit." This is knowing only Elohim — One who loves "in spite of" man’s condition. Knowing the Lord in this limited aspect of His nature can lead to "greasy grace" — a place of presumption — that gives no regard to the truth that His nature is also righteous and He must judge sin in us. If He does not, we could never become like Him, for to become like Him, we must see Him as He is.

Then, there is the other side of the coin which total fits the JW of a one sided God. Those who know Him only by His nature revealed in the name Jehovah become judgmental and harsh because they say He is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity. . . "Heb.1:13.

They talk like a sinner must be cast out of His presence because of his sin, for the Lord can’t stand to look upon evil! This word "look" means "to look intently at; to regard with pleasure, favor or care." This new revelation of God’s nature shows us that evil must be judged because it crosses His nature, and is antagonistic to it. He is now considering the quality of our being and judging that which is opposed to His righteousness.

Do you see why the words LORD God (Jehovah-Elohim) are used together? The Jews were actually afraid to pronounce "Jehovah" by itself. They would read "Adonai" instead, or "Elohim", for they knew Jehovah was the aspect of God’s nature that would judge their unrighteousness. Our Father would have us to understand that what He is in his Being and how He expresses that Being must go hand-in-hand or we do not see Him truly. When He judges, it is not without love and mercy! He must judge, but it is for our good, not for punishment —but to correct us! I have heard one parent say to to the other one, "It is not fair that I should have to perform all the discipline in the family, and you do all the loving and giving. It makes me look like an ogre and it makes you ‘the good guy’. We need to come to a balance here, because we both love our children and yet we must judge their bad behaviour so that they will grow up to be a credit to us." This is exactly what I am saying about the nature of God! We ought not to regard Him only by one aspect of His nature.

We need to achieve a balance between "I can do anything I want because God’s Love is unconditional" and "God’s going to get me if I fall or fail." We need to first see Elohim — unconditional love — not dependent upon our state —but upon His relationship to us. Then, we need also to see that His nature is Truth — and the true expression of His nature is righteousness. And, though He loves us, He must deal with the sin in our nature. He does this on the basis of HIS LOVE FOR US, not on a basis of WRATH BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS and He is too holy to look upon us! He more than looked upon our sin — He bore it upon Himself! When we speak of God’s Wrath it is always the Wrath of the lamb, not the lion. That is why genesis uses both names (Jehovah-Elohim)

The one about Jesus being Jehovah.
If you don't even know who Jehovah and Jesus are how do you expect to know anything about the bible. Plus the fact that when Jesus says something you don't believe it.
becasue Jesus said.

John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


It puts you in a very dangerous position. The evidence is indisputable that the dogma of the that Jesus is Jehovah is not found in the Bible, nor is it in harmony with what the Bible teaches. It grossly misrepresents the true God. Yet, Jesus Christ said: “The hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

1 John 2:22: “Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ [or, Messiah, anointed one]? This is the antichrist.”

 

[it'sme]

You quote JOHN 20:17 and you keep DWELLING ON THE LOWER LEVELS the flesh level with Jesus as I already pointed out. Jesus had not been glorified he was still in a body, the realm of God is spirit. Jesus was still earth bound.

John 20:14 After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!&#8221 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da‧lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.

Jesus was already resurrected, when he said this , you just do not want truth, and certainly don't believe in Jesus.
Jesus own mother did not recognize him, she even thought he was the gardener . So it wasn't Jesus body, it was body he took on so that he tell Mary the he is going to his Father and God, and made the point of telling her, to tell the others.

There is no way you can get around this. I mean you can if you want to, and you will be still supporting Satan, becasue Satan is the father of the lie. You see this is what Christendom is all about. Trying to twist things for their own desires.
You have no creditability , in anything you say. If I quote a scripture about what Jesus said you say he didn't mean that. When Jesus says he is Gods Son you don't believe that. I am interested in talking to people about what the bible says, not made up stuff. If you don't believe Jesus you certainty are not going to believe anything I say.

 

[467AIR]

Don’t talk to me no one is forcing you here. I expanded to you in the trinity thread the context of Jesus had not been glorified. I did not make my own explanation I used God’s Word , yes He was resurrected but He was not glorified, He is still earth bound.

You believe Jesus is an angel if I heard you right angel like the Devil who was created a liar not and angel are all creative being and reflect God’s light, (Satan refects the left hand of God) but do not give God’s light.

In Revelation 1:14
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Jesus is described with eyes that were as a flame of fire. Human eyes and angels reflect light, BUT here Jesus is projecting light/fire.

There is no mention of the Father and son once Jesus by God when Jesus was glorified, for He is (Johovah-Elohim LORD God) in fact the Book of Revelation means the unveiling of Jesus Christ. Here in the Book of Revelation do with a picture of the deity of Jesus on his throne, such descriptions like Revelation 1:14 which I just posted is but one example of Jesus being both Lord of lord, King of Kings the mighty God the everlasting Father.

So if you do not want to debate with me praise God, I really enjoyed turning on the light in your dark and gloom religion.


(LORD God) or (Jehovah-Elohim)

John 20:14 After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!&#8221 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da‧lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.

Jesus was already resurrected, when he said this , you just do not want truth, and certainly don't believe in Jesus.
Jesus own mother did not recognize him, she even thought he was the gardener . So it wasn't Jesus body, it was body he took on so that he tell Mary the he is going to his Father and God, and made the point of telling her, to tell the others.

There is no way you can get around this. I mean you can if you want to, and you will be still supporting Satan, becasue Satan is the father of the lie. You see this is what Christendom is all about. Trying to twist things for their own desires.
You have no creditability , in anything you say. If I quote a scripture about what Jesus said you say he didn't mean that. When Jesus says he is Gods Son you don't believe that. I am interested in talking to people about what the bible says, not made up stuff. If you don't believe Jesus you certainty are not going to believe anything I say.

 

[it'sme]

As I said before , you should at least believe what Jesus tells you. You don't have to believe me. The rest of the bible confirms what Jesus said in these scriptures.
If you can't get this, then nothing you say is credible. This is very clear, easy to understand. It is only from preconceived ideas that you try to twist this statement of Jesus. If you had never know anything about the bible and you read this scripture, then you could not say any other than what this scripture says. That Jesus has a God, and that he is going to him.


John 20:14 After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da‧lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.