Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[racer]

because it is like a mormon visiting your home while you have a huge cross at the front door .... is that a hint you are already a Christian?
We are not "intimidated" as talking about Greece we have already 'other missions" there....People are not interested that is all.... what is the point of a purposeful exchange such a mission in a christian land? Exchanging ideas we have theological conferences for that. Our Theologians and church leaders do dialogue freely with each other

Philothei,


You can not speak for every last Orthodox christian. They may not show interest because they do not know what other faiths offer.

And, why is it you think there only motivation is to steal sheep?

 

[racer]

Why do they need another Christian faith?

Because maybe they have trouble with the Orthodox faith, and perhaps find something more fulfilling in another faith group.

Isn't being Christian good enough?

Yes. But, I'm not suggesting that "i" believe that Orthodoxy is not okay or fulfilling for most believers who belong to that church.

I'm simply saying it's not necessarily right to deny them access to other churches because the Orthodox church presumes that they need nothing else.

Are you suggesting they need to try the smorgosbord variety of Christianity to pick and choose?

No, that's not what I'm saying. But, there are people who do this everyday. If they did not you church would never have any converts,

To what end? The point is that they are Christian.

So, do you think it's fair to deny them access to other churches because "you" personally believe that Orthodoxy is all that they need? Christians should be fairly educated regarding all of Christianity. Then maybe there wouldn't be so much of all of us misrepresenting the beliefs of other faiths.

If you're talking about nonChristian "other faiths" then I guess that's another topic all together.

No, that's not what I'm talking about.

 

[racer]

Let me do a reverse situation here. When Greek families came over, they knew there were other Christians here and many that weren't what they were. They accepted the fact that they were Christians. They did not try and change them to EO. I grew up with many Protestant friends. I knew they were Christians. I didn't try to convert them. So, does it really boil down to the insulting view that some Protestants don't believe the EO (or RCC) are Christian? And if so....who needs teaching and knowledge given to them?

Well, then perhaps the Orthodox church shold take a more proactive approach. You know I don't know of an Orthodox church in Oklahoma that is within an hour away from where I live. However, I can't count the number of Penecostals, Baptists, Church of God, Methodists, Church of Christ, and at least five (5) Catholic churches within 30 to 45 minutes from where I live. So, why do you think that is? Why are Orthodox churches so scarce?

From what I've learned about Orthodoxy here at CF, I've discovered that most people who object to its beliefs or teachings don't truly understand what the Orthodox church teaches. I personally don't reject most of what it teaches, I simply do not agree with a couple of its beliefs, such as the Real Presence.

 

[Rhamiel]

has anyone thought of the damage that is done when people go to another country and tell people that their religion is wrong? the damage is that many people will not trust any form of Christianity, it puts emphasis of division

look at the most secular countries that have a christian history, it started with a plurism of faiths, that leads to disbelief in any faith

 

[Secundulus]

has anyone thought of the damage that is done when people go to another country and tell people that their religion is wrong? the damage is that many people will not trust any form of Christianity, it puts emphasis of division

look at the most secular countries that have a christian history, it started with a plurism of faiths, that leads to disbelief in any faith

The damage is indicated by the fact that this thread speaks of Christianity itself as a plurality of faiths.

 

[Yeznik]

Let me do a reverse situation here. When Greek families came over, they knew there were other Christians here and many that weren't what they were. They accepted the fact that they were Christians. They did not try and change them to EO. I grew up with many Protestant friends. I knew they were Christians. I didn't try to convert them. So, does it really boil down to the insulting view that some Protestants don't believe the EO (or RCC) are Christian? And if so....who needs teaching and knowledge given to them?
Well, then perhaps the Orthodox church shold take a more proactive approach. You know I don't know of an Orthodox church in Oklahoma that is within an hour away from where I live. However, I can't count the number of Penecostals, Baptists, Church of God, Methodists, Church of Christ, and at least five (5) Catholic churches within 30 to 45 minutes from where I live. So, why do you think that is? Why are Orthodox churches so scarce?

The fact of the matter is that there are certain Protestant groups that don’t believe any Orthodox Church as Christian. I am speaking from my personal experience as well as the experience of the Armenian Church. At this point it can no longer be described as “sheep stealing” but rather a wolf in sheep clothing. From my understanding Orthodoxy was introduced in the US in the 19th century, (through Alaska by the way of Russia I think) and by immigrants in the 20th century. That is why they are not all over the country, yet. But they are in areas that are highly populated by immigrants from the corresponding country that they came from. So it is relatively new in the US.

 

[Rhamiel]

I know of the Tremont Temple Baptist Church. Extremely ornate for a Baptist Church. Very much out of character. It is gorgous and is a treasure

neat

The fact of the matter is that there are certain Protestant groups that don’t believe any Orthodox Church as Christian. I am speaking from my personal experience as well as the experience of the Armenian Church. At this point it can no longer be described as “sheep stealing” but rather a wolf in sheep clothing. From my understanding Orthodoxy was introduced in the US in the 19th century, (through Alaska by the way of Russia I think) and by immigrants in the 20th century. That is why they are not all over the country, yet. But they are in areas that are highly populated by immigrants from the corresponding country that they came from. So it is relatively new in the US.

in 1768 the Greek Orthodox Church in America was set up in Florida, look at St.Augistine Florida

 

[Yeznik]

neat

in 1768 the Greek Orthodox Church in America was set up in Florida, look at St.Augistine Florida

I stand corrected thank you Rhamiel.

 

[cobweb]

Russian missionaries arrived in Alaska in 1794.

 

[Livindesert]

Russian missionaries arrived in Alaska in 1794.

Of course Alaska has only been a U.S. state since July 7, 1958.

 

[cobweb]

Of course Alaska has only been a U.S. state since July 7, 1958.

So?

Greek Orthodox Christians were in Florida as early as June of 1768, but I suppose that doesn't count because Florida wasn't a state then either. Right?

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Of course Alaska has only been a U.S. state since July 7, 1958.

It became U.S. territory in the 1840s (? -not quite sure of the decade), in a sale from Russia to the U.S. known as Seward's Folly. Read up on the history of the treatment of the Orthodox peoples in Alaska by the protestant missionaries then. Not pretty.

Mary

 

[racer]

Though a generalization, the attitude that one should compare theologies to find the one that best suits oneself finds its parallel in the value of " ample choices" at the grocery.

Here's the thing, those of you who so arrogantly take statements and read way, way more into what is actually meant that anybody ever meant to say, is what sometimes make me wonder exactly what those who belong to certain faiths tell each other about what non-Orthodox/Catholic people do and don't believe.

Nobody says that we should search for a church that suits our needs. But, there are clearly people who look at what is taught within the RCC and the EOC and realize that some of it doesn't quite jive with Scripture. So, where would that leave someone like me? Stuck? Going, okay, the Bible--the "how to" book for Christians says this, the RCC/EOC church teaches this. These teachings contradict each other or don't necessarily reconcile to each other. So, what does that say about the church (in this case the RCC/EOC)? It's not really representing what God's word, the Bible, tells us. So how much can I trust this church? Is it credible? Is it reliable? Does this church have my best interest in mind, or is it serving itself? So, where should that leave me? I believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, that he became flesh and was crucified for my sins. But, I don't believe in the Real Presence or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or Papal Infallibility or the infallibility of the Magisterium of the church. Do I therefore become a non-believer? Do I become a believer with no church to fellowship within? Or do I attend the only church that is available to me because no other church exists for me to fellowship and worship within?

However, given the circumstances pondered above, one still might be willing to entrust himself to "a" church that professes it is the only church, especially if it is all that one knows or all that is available. However, added to the confusion is the fact that there are two churches who assert that they are the "one true church" established by Christ. These churches claim infallibility for themselves. They claim that they alone possess the fulness of truth. If what both of tese churches assert is true--that one church alone does possess the fullness of truth and teaches nothing but the truth--how do they explain that there are two churches who claim this authority for themselves THEN, attempt to portray a certain communion or unification between the two of them? These two groups falsely claim that they are not really separated, but merely schismatics, then go on to insult, condescend, ostracize, attempt to demean, or continually be offended by--those denominations not of either the Orthodox or Catholic faith.

No, I don't believe that Christianity is a buffet and we should shop around till we find one church that completely represents what we personally believe. However, I don't think that one should feel compelled to subjugate himself to a church merely because it is the only available to him or the only church about which he knows antything, when he clearly does not agree with particular doctrines and dogmas established within these faiths.

If one is secure in their faith and believes that it is clearly the one to know it all, why would they care who came to witness to those who may or may not belong to your church? One thing that might help build the ranks of members in your churches is to not be so insulting, arrogant or mocking to those not of your faith. There are some who might give some consideration to your church if it was not represented by such behavior.

Regardless of what you think about witnessing and missionary work, the fact is that the Church was given a directive by Christ--the Great Commission. If your church is not actively doing this, then there is a problem. Jesus didn't say go "build" a church and wait for would be believers to come knocking on your door.

So, for me, if it comes down to the fact that a person's beliefs regarding Christ and His church do not agree with mine, I say let him learn about other faiths. As long as in the end he becomes or stays a believer--that beats not belonging to any church at all.

This idea (comparison and subsequent re-locating oneself based on preference) seems a ripple extended from the splintering of the Reformation; the reformation or revival is not within but by moving out. At the very least, it echoes the immigrant nature of the US culture -- to leave home (emigrate) is to move towards something "better".

You are blatantly miscontruing/misrepresenting my whole argument. And, I believe you are doing so intentionally. This is a waste of time for you because you are putting effort into arguing against an assertion that has not been made by me.

To return also to the observation that seeing Christians as consumers in the marketplace of ideas (where the "idea" is theology and personal preference) risks making of Christianity an ideology.

And restricting one's access to what is taught by all faiths and only allowing influence by one church abolishes freewill.

Finally, if we introduce emigrating from a Church as being the path to "better", then a second move "out" is also desirable. And a third, etc. Instead of a deepening within to the heart ("the heart is deep" Psalm 63), spiritual growth is potentially a "moving about".

Well, like I said earlier, the EOC might want to take a more proactive approach and actively participate in the Great Commission. Like I said, Orthodox churches appear to be rare in the Us.

 

[cobweb]

The problem is that the Russian Church was persecuted under communism for so long. It is estimated that as many as 20 million Orthodox Christians were martyred.

Thousands of Churches were destroyed. Many bishops and priests were executed or sent to the gulag. Children did not recieve proper catechesis, but were indoctrinated into atheism.

Once communism ended the Church was given no time to recover. Western missionaries swooped in like vultures pecking at the weakened Church.

In the end it will not matter. The Church survived the communists. It will survive this.

 

[Philothei]

The problem is that the Russian Church was persecuted under communism for so long. It is estimated that as many as 20 million Orthodox Christians were martyred.

Thousands of Churches were destroyed. Many bishops and priests were executed or sent to the gulag. Children did not recieve proper catechesis, but were indoctrinated into atheism.

Once communism ended the Church was given no time to recover. Western missionaries swooped in like vultures pecking at the weakened Church.

In the end it will not matter. The Church survived the communists. It will survive this.

QFT

 

[Philothei]

Not allowing...??? We do allow other faiths to exercise their faith. If our people are interested to visit these missions are more than welcome...


hmmmmm what about they are NOT interested? Shall we shaving it down to their throats a dogma they are not seeking or they are do not understand as it is a foreign to them....
As far as our dogma being "faulty" oh...well what else is new... We have heard that before ..that ought to be the cheepest argument since the beginning of the schism existed ever in Christianity...It is the biggest "fix it for you" I have heard...


EO has been around the block many times since these Evangelical churches ever existed that should be easy to defend I think ... So no need for Greeks to learn 'apologetics" about their EO church that....and the bible was written in Greek (part of it anyways) is enough to lead our faith out of this one

Who would understand the bible better than a Greek than Greeks themselves or we need someone to come in and "translate" it for us?

As far as Russia is concerned I do not see why their over 1,000 years of conversion now suddently need someone to explain to them about who Christ is or "educate" them on the Bible since they already have their own Christian Church... It is like the EO going to Rome to missionize the Vatican Both EO centers of Orthodoxy are so self sufficient and they have the resources needed for this job. Last time I checked I did not see lines with people outside any western mission centers or it would have make it into the news...

 

[Philothei]

Just because Orthodoxy may have been the first church to spread throughout Greece and has thrived for years (centuries), it does not mean that there are people who are not necessarily believers but simply object to something the Orthodox church teaches, therefore they are not practicing believers. They may simply attend the Orthodox Church because it is the only one there. Denying them information about what other faiths teach is not really right.

If you think Christianity as a chinese buffet you are right

Who is denying them inforamtion? WE do cover them all in religious class. We have buddist, jehovah wittnesses, pagans, mulsims, evangelicals, pentacostals, calvinists, whatever you like in Greece they are just ain't growing

Your argument is moot.

 

[Philothei]

Philothei,


You can not speak for every last Orthodox christian. They may not show interest because they do not know what other faiths offer.

And, why is it you think there only motivation is to steal sheep?

How would you know they do not you are making assumptions out of the people I know and my classmates in Greece NO ONE has converted and the population of converts or 'other religion" is less than 2% who are we kidding here???

But why would you go to a house with a big cross in the front ..like Russia with a state religion and Greece and preach the gospel?? what other motivation would there be?

Did we preached the gospel to the Italians after the schism cause we "thought to give them another option" ? NOPE they already had their own partriachate of Rome to do that for them. Now I cannot say that they did not try to do that themselves to Greece but that is another topic. Not the first time the west is trying to steel sheep...in the history of the church

 

[Philothei]

That suggests that the Church is doing its job right By that I mean proper catechesis so that people understand why they believe what the Church teaches. There won't be many 'converts' where that has happened.

Your post went on to describe some tremendous work being done by the Church in Greece. That would suggest to me that there's no reason for a law to ban foreign missionaries. Why is such a law needed? If no one wants what Protestants bring then the market economy will actually work - the Protestants will go away. It is the law which I fail to understand. If no one wants the missionaries, why ban them? Are you not losing an opportunity to evangelise them for Orthodoxy?

I quite agree with what you say here. But the UK is vastly different. 2 million out of a population of 60 million. I have spent thirty years teaching in a UK University and the number of young people with any knowledge of the Christian Faith is perilously low; it has become progressively worse. My own priest was recently asked if he was a Muslim - clearly the pectoral cross told the young people who asked him nothing

It seems as though Greece has a law she does not need I'd suggest any Evangelicals heading for Greece should stop off in the UK - there's a huge task for them to do. They'd never get around to leaving!

peace,

Anglian

i wish the Evangelicals or any type of Christians would do the trick with the Atheism that runs rumprant in Europe and it is coming in Greece also.


We have the evangelicals if not all of them (in all colors) we have the mainstream ones. I hope you have better luck as they are not helping with our youth

I know about the law but somehow missionaries are coming in despite the law. the law is this "no prosylitizing" meaning we do not allow them to stand outside our churches and give out information like the Jehovah Wittess reluntlensly do every single Sunday

No matter how many times we tell them to go again they "solicit" that is why I say about the law. It does mean you have to have a 'core' group to allow them to exist in Greece and they all come up with a small group to open up a small mission. it is not hard to "bend" or missionize without breaking the rule Anglian.

Protestant groups finding this as an excuse to cry foul. In reality thought they are not successful i.e. the Pentacostal small mission (for example) in my town closed a few years ago since membership declined.... If Greeks are not interested in becomming Pentacostals how is this the Greek Goverments fault?
they all come in with high hopes to serve the unchurched but alas.. atheism has already worked his way in those lapsed EO


Ok we will send you the Pentacostals your way then Anglian sure Maybe some others too will have better results with youth.

And about the youth thinking the priest is a muslim... That is another case of ignorance that exists among our people and the parents IMHO are totally responsible for such an oversight

Families are not as 'together' as one were before...a sign of our times...

 

[Philothei]

Christians should be fairly educated regarding all of Christianity. Then maybe there wouldn't be so much of all of us misrepresenting the beliefs of other faiths.

According to who ? You? Greeks know the Diamartiromenoi (Proterstants) and the Katholiloi( Catholics) and what they believe they learn it in High School. Do you want me to link you? but you would not understand since you do not know Greek.