Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[Philothei]

Wow! Excellent post, Philothei, and quite informative. Thank you for the "inside" scoop on Greece. I thought also of the perspective of the Churches not doing enough there....There really is only so much the hcurch and the priests can do for a member of it. The member must take the responsibility to learn their faith and teach it to their children as well. This passing down of the faith is really quite good, for the most part (and in Russia).

I'm wondering if it's true what I've heard that evangelical churches are just interested in the numbers (amount of members) they can bring in more than having a priest/spiritual father nurture and continue with them on their journey towards Christ. Could just be heresay. Just something I've heard.

I was going to cook ...but I will post this and see y'all later...



Thanks Dorothea I think my post needs editing (gah)

Anyhow your question is exactly what I meant about ethos. EO are used to a different mindset about the priesthood. Yep the idea of having someone who does the Sunday Service and then there is not "ritual" is strange. Also the idea of the priesthood as someone who is not going to give them absolution, a house blessing, or a healing service prayer without the ritual...is a truly as Greeks would say "cold thing". Allow me to use the a phrase from the Greek wedding "a dry toast" type of experience.

I am not saying this to cut down any tradiiton here...as Christ should be the center and He is as much present in our fellow Christians' worship What I am saying is how it would appear to the EO who is even lapsed those differences stand up as sore thumb. They are not used to them. Even if someone comes in to try to convert them they would resist that initially and that is what is going on. We are foreign to the form of worship the Evangelicals use. Hope that answers your question...

The same could apply to Russians and the reason why Baptists (I heard) in Russsia use icons in their worship :o....

ETA I think I did not answer your question after all...

But I think your comment about the Evangelicals is a mixed bag it depends which ones? I mentioned the Evangelicals in Greece are already there But they do not do as good as they should do either... And hmmm... I think it has nothing to do with "not deepening their faith" as it is a pretty respected Church they have it just has not grown to the point that could make a difference as far as the lapsed that would be my guess. As far as 'other evangeligals" I have no idea what I know are the Jehovah Witnesses who make indeed more converts using sometimes not so rightful means but I will not go there ....

 

[Dorothea]

I stayed there for a year as you know. Three years ago and my hubby is and served as a priest there so I know first hand

We served in a parish in Athens but every Sunday it was packed we did have many couples and young families.. There is defenately a revival in Greece about their faith
I think the same is taking place in Russia and we should invite our Russian Orthodox posters to tell us about it

That's Great! I'm looking forward to my family and my's trip to Greece in May, God willing.

 

[Dorothea]

It is clear you fully believe in the Orthodox faith, and this is probably so for most Orthodox and Catholics. But, there may be those who read Scripture and know full well what Orthodoxy teaches, yet still have problems reconciling the two. So, is it okay that a country dismiss this possibility and not allow missionaries to work there?

These people may be practicing Orthodox christians because that is all that has been available to them or because they do not know what other faiths actually teach: Do you therefore withhold the teachings of different faiths from those people?

How do you expose these people to other teachings without evangelizing?

Racer, I'm not sure you fully read what I wrote, otherwise you wouldn't be asking the last question you do and the others. The first sentence I posted was that I did not believe in banning evangelicals in Greece and other "Orthodox" countries, and even said that those who are not interested in Orthodoxy would welcome the evangelical missionaries to preach to them their beliefs. That is fine. It's not an issue for me.

You see, the main issue was not about evangelizing to those not interested in EO or not practiciing their faith, but those who are practicing Orthodox Christians who are being coerced to convert to another Christian faith - evangelical christian of some type. This is unacceptable, imo. HTH

eta: If they are practicing Orthodox Christians (which means devout believers), then there would be no need to evangelize them to another Christian faith. They are Christian and that should be all that matters to the evangelicals that come, but apparently they don't all believe that the EO are truly Christian from what I've read.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

Why do some Evangelical Christians go to such countries that are predominantly Christian, such as South America, Greece, or Russia (for examples) and try to preach the word of Christ and such when these people are already Christian? Why not go to other countries who have not heard the gospel or are of different religions, such as Muslim, Hindu, etc.? Doesn't make sense to me.

BECAUSE IT IS EASY. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE DOING THINGS THAT ARE HARD.

 

[racer]

What would be most helpful to the indeginous Christians in these countries (EO and RCC), if the evangelicals want to help those other Christians (RCC and EO) would be to help them by helping them learn about their own Churches and traditions and share readings from the NT with them, without wanting to convert them.

Well, I would think the only ones qualified to teach these people about the faith that they are practicing be people who actually belong to that faith. As a Christian you must be true to your faith, regardless to which church you belong. I wouldn't dare to step on the toes of the Orthodox people by daring to teach their faith like it was my own.

How is believing that people should belong to "your" faith group any more wrong then wanting to deny them education about different faiths and keep them from choosing another?

If people are firmly grounded in their church, no amount of evangelizing is going to pull them away.

Freedom of religion is the reason so many people come to America. If you have a dominant faith in particular countries, like Orthodoxy in Russia or Catholicism in Italy, many people will feel "forced" to belong to the faiths whether or not they actually believe what a particular faith teaches.

The must feel free to believe what they truly feel is the truth, not what they feel forced to believe. That's not freewill and that's not what God wants from us. If this is what people base their beliefs on, then they are not necessarily being true to God.

Withholding knowledge of different belief systems from certain populations is not the answer.

 

[Dorothea]

I was going to cook ...but I will post this and see y'all later...



Thanks Dorothea I think my post needs editing (gah)

Anyhow your question is exactly what I meant about ethos. EO are used to a different mindset about the priesthood. Yep the idea of having someone who does the Sunday Service and then there is not "ritual" is strange. Also the idea of the priesthood as someone who is not going to give them absolution, a house blessing, or a healing service prayer without the ritual...is a truly as Greeks would say "cold thing". Allow me to use the a phrase from the Greek wedding "a dry toast" type of experience.

I am not saying this to cut down any tradiiton here...as Christ should be the center and He is as much present in our fellow Christians' worship What I am saying is how it would appear to the EO who is even lapsed those differences stand up as sore thumb. They are not used to them. Even if someone comes in to try to convert them they would resist that initially and that is what is going on. We are foreign to the form of worship the Evangelicals use. Hope that answers your question...

The same could apply to Russians and the reason why Baptists (I heard) in Russsia use icons in their worship :o....

ETA I think I did not answer your question after all...

But I think your comment about the Evangelicals is a mixed bag it depends which ones? I mentioned the Evangelicals in Greece are already there But they do not do as good as they should do either... And hmmm... I think it has nothing to do with "not deepening their faith" as it is a pretty respected Church they have it just has not grown to the point that could make a difference as far as the lapsed that would be my guess. As far as 'other evangeligals" I have no idea what I know are the Jehovah Witnesses who make indeed more converts using sometimes not so rightful means but I will not go there ....

Yes, I can understand that. I'm wondering the motives of the Baptists using icons. Are they trying to "fit in" and be sincere, or are they just using these "tools" for another less than charitable reason?

 

[racer]

Racer, I'm not sure you fully read what I wrote, otherwise you wouldn't be asking the last question you do and the others. The first sentence I posted was that I did not believe in banning evangelicals in Greece and other "Orthodox" countries, and even said that those who are not interested in Orthodoxy would welcome the evangelical missionaries to preach to them their beliefs. That is fine. It's not an issue for me.

You see, the main issue was not about evangelizing to those not interested in EO or not practiciing their faith, but those who are practicing Orthodox Christians who are being coerced to convert to another Christian faith - evangelical christian of some type. This is unacceptable, imo. HTH

eta: If they are practicing Orthodox Christians (which means devout believers), then there would be no need to evangelize them to another Christian faith. They are Christian and that should be all that matters to the evangelicals that come, but apparently they don't all believe that the EO are truly Christian from what I've read.

So, tell me, how do missionaries determine who is interested in learning about a different faith and who is not?

 

[Philothei]

These people may be practicing Orthodox christians because that is all that has been available to them or because they do not know what other faiths actually teach: Do you therefore withhold the teachings of different faiths from those people?

How do you expose these people to other teachings without evangelizing?

Since Dorothea is not a native Greek I will answer you ...

If they are Christians already why would they need to be missionized by others? why is it important to have Christians to convert to Christianity?

Through church history that is taught in High schools. No you do not withhold they are free to join to the ones who already exist since we do have immigrants who come in. We are a free nation.... If you do not have "parishioners" why establish a church? The rest are all EO christians period.

 

[racer]

Yes, I can understand that. I'm wondering the motives of the Baptists using icons. Are they trying to "fit in" and be sincere, or are they just using these "tools" for another less than charitable reason?

I am amazed of the condenscension and critical comments made about thos not of the Orthodox or Catholic faith being made here? Why are you guys so threatened by those not of your faith spreading their beliefs among other believers?

The opportunity swings both ways. If a solid Orthodox believer is approached by a non-Orthodox believer, this is his opportunity to expose that person to what he believes to be the truth--what his faith believes.

 

[Dorothea]

Well, I would think the only ones qualified to teach these people about the faith that they are practicing be people who actually belong to that faith. As a Christian you must be true to your faith, regardless to which church you belong. I wouldn't dare to step on the toes of the Orthodox people by daring to teach their faith like it was my own.

How is believing that people should belong to "your" faith group any more wrong then wanting to deny them education about different faiths and keep them from choosing another?

If people are firmly grounded in their church, no amount of evangelizing is going to pull them away.

Freedom of religion is the reason so many people come to America. If you have a dominant faith in particular countries, like Orthodoxy in Russia or Catholicism in Italy, many people will fill "forced" to belong to the faiths whether or not they actually believe what a particular faith teaches.

The must feel free to believe what they truly feel is the truth, not what they feel forced to believe. That's not freewill and that's not what God wants from us. If this is what people base their beliefs on, then they are not necessarily being true to God.

Withholding knowledge of different belief systems from certain populations is not the answer.

I'm guessing Philothei could answer better on this with specifics, but you're questioning something that is....hmmm....wasn't an issue until the past several decades. Orthodox Christianity was what spread through Greece (as I'm sure you know) around 200 years ago, . It continued to thrive and grow throughout the centuries. Why would the Greek people need another form on Christiniaity when they have one? What would be the purpose? Learning about other different sects of Christianity? What would be the point? They're in the EO, and other countries that had EO as their main Christian belief. Why would you think they'd need to have differnt choices or "knowledge" of other Christian beliefs? I still don't see the point. What is the real question behind the question?

 

[Philothei]

BECAUSE IT IS EASY. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE DOING THINGS THAT ARE HARD.

Yeah try to tell that to the EOs....
Where in the Bible it says that we "should not worship doing hard things?"

 

[racer]

Racer, I'm not sure you fully read what I wrote, otherwise you wouldn't be asking the last question you do and the others. The first sentence I posted was that I did not believe in banning evangelicals in Greece and other "Orthodox" countries, and even said that those who are not interested in Orthodoxy would welcome the evangelical missionaries to preach to them their beliefs. That is fine. It's not an issue for me.

You see, the main issue was not about evangelizing to those not interested in EO or not practiciing their faith, but those who are practicing Orthodox Christians who are being coerced to convert to another Christian faith - evangelical christian of some type. This is unacceptable, imo. HTH

eta: If they are practicing Orthodox Christians (which means devout believers), then there would be no need to evangelize them to another Christian faith. They are Christian and that should be all that matters to the evangelicals that come, but apparently they don't all believe that the EO are truly Christian from what I've read.

I think maybe you missed my point. If Orthodoxy is the "predominant" or the "only" faith offered, there may be some of that faith who only belong to that faith because they know nothing about any other faith.

 

[Dorothea]

I am amazed of the condenscention and critical comments made about thos not of the Orthodox or Catholic faith being made here? Why are you guys so threatened by those not of your faiths spreading their beliefs among other believers?

The opportunity swings both ways. If a solid Orthodox believe is approach by a non-Orthodox believer, this is his opportunity to expose that person to what he believes to be the truth--what his faith believes.

Because of the way it is sometimes done in other countries. Some of those that go over to convert do so not in the service of God but for stealing sheep and causing division and separating a person from their family and culture. When you have guide books from the SB Seminary spreading lies about the Russian Orthodox as a "rabbit's foot religion" and this look book twisting sublty the truth about Russian Orthodox, it can be very upsetting and distressing yes. And I wouldn't call that in the spirit of God but rather doing the work of the Enemy.

Read earlier on in the thread for examples and the link to this booklet for lack of a better word.

 

[Philothei]

I am amazed of the condenscention and critical comments made about thos not of the Orthodox or Catholic faith being made here? Why are you guys so threatened by those not of your faiths spreading their beliefs among other believers?

The opportunity swings both ways. If a solid Orthodox believe is approach by a non-Orthodox believer, this is his opportunity to expose that person to what he believes to be the truth--what his faith believes.

because it is like a mormon visiting your home while you have a huge cross at the front door .... is that a hint you are already a Christian?
We are not "intimidated" as talking about Greece we have already 'other missions" there....People are not interested that is all.... what is the point of a purposeful exchange such a mission in a christian land? Exchanging ideas we have theological conferences for that. Our Theologians and church leaders do dialogue freely with each other

 

[Dorothea]

I think maybe you missed my point. If Orthodoxy is the "predominant" or the "only" faith offered, there may be some of that faith who only belong to that faith because they know nothing about any other faith.

Why do they need another Christian faith? Isn't being Christian good enough? Are you suggesting they need to try the smorgosbord variety of Christianity to pick and choose? To what end? The point is that they are Christian. If you're talking about nonChristian "other faiths" then I guess that's another topic all together.

 

[Philothei]

I think maybe you missed my point. If Orthodoxy is the "predominant" or the "only" faith offered, there may be some of that faith who only belong to that faith because they know nothing about any other faith.

How this jive with the Gospel about evangelizing? "Go therefore make disciples ....."?

 

[Philothei]

I do not think the Gospel said "make disciples that could belong to EO or RC oh...letmme give you a catalogue with churches you could belong to..." before you decide with one

 

[Dorothea]

Let me do a reverse situation here. When Greek families came over, they knew there were other Christians here and many that weren't what they were. They accepted the fact that they were Christians. They did not try and change them to EO. I grew up with many Protestant friends. I knew they were Christians. I didn't try to convert them. So, does it really boil down to the insulting view that some Protestants don't believe the EO (or RCC) are Christian? And if so....who needs teaching and knowledge given to them?

 

[Thekla]

At the risk of being repetitive, there is the strong historical evidence for how missionising has been seen as a means to quite a different goal.

The US does have a "national Church"; it is not in any one Church, but in the ethos of the US culture.

Though a generalization, the attitude that one should compare theologies to find the one that best suits oneself finds its parallel in the value of " ample choices" at the grocery. This idea (comparison and subsequent re-locating oneself based on preference) seems a ripple extended from the splintering of the Reformation; the reformation or revival is not within but by moving out. At the very least, it echoes the immigrant nature of the US culture -- to leave home (emigrate) is to move towards something "better".

To return also to the observation that seeing Christians as consumers in the marketplace of ideas (where the "idea" is theology and personal preference) risks making of Christianity an ideology.

Finally, if we introduce emigrating from a Church as being the path to "better", then a second move "out" is also desirable. And a third, etc. Instead of a deepening within to the heart ("the heart is deep" Psalm 63), spiritual growth is potentially a "moving about".

 

[lionroar0]

At the risk of being repetitive, there is the strong historical evidence for how missionising has been seen as a means to quite a different goal.

The US does have a "national Church"; it is not in any one Church, but in the ethos of the US culture.

Though a generalization, the attitude that one should compare theologies to find the one that best suits oneself finds its parallel in the value of " ample choices" at the grocery. This idea (comparison and subsequent re-locating oneself based on preference) seems a ripple extended from the splintering of the Reformation; the reformation or revival is not within but by moving out. At the very least, it echoes the immigrant nature of the US culture -- to leave home (emigrate) is to move towards something "better".

To return also to the observation that seeing Christians as consumers in the marketplace of ideas (where the "idea" is theology and personal preference) risks making of Christianity an ideology.

Finally, if we introduce emigrating from a Church as being the path to "better", then a second move "out" is also desirable. And a third, etc. Instead of a deepening within to the heart ("the heart is deep" Psalm 63), spiritual growth is potentially a "moving about".

Looks like a culture of cosumerism.