Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

[chestertonrules]

You chose which church you wanted to belong to, didn't you? (Yes)

True. I decided to find out which Church Jesus started.

You decided which church's dogmas you will follow

I decided which Church was started by Jesus, then followed their teachings.

EVERYONE here agrees that he has not abandoned his church.

Absolutely false. Every protestant believe that the Catholic Church was not following Jesus, ie. Jesus abandoned his Church.

Oh, you mean that part about IF Jesus had founded a denomination instead of a church, and IF the Apostles actually had chosen a line of successors and IF they chose theirs, then IF they are still around, you would follow them

Jesus gave his Church the power to bind and loose. We have records in scripture and history of the apostles appointing successors.

When do you think they stopped doing this?

 

[Albion]

Teaching errors would be inconsistent with being led into all truth.

Nope. All that is promised is that the truth would be present, not that errors could not occur at times.

However, I agree that the Church makes mistakes in practive, but not in doctrine.

It's made those too.

esus also gave the Church power to bind and loose. He told us to listen to this Church.

Neither "Bind and loose" nor "listen to the church" speak to the issue of there being errors somewhere in the church at times.

 

[racer]

I am not leaning on my own understanding.

You are as much as the next person.

I don't make my own dogmas.

Nor do I.

I trust Jesus and I believe that he has not abandoned his Church.

I agree, except I, also, believe He will not abandon me. I think we can even argue that Jesus abandons no one, not even non-believers. It is people who abandon or reject Him.

You reject those sent by Jesus.

Nope.

 

[chestertonrules]

Neither "Bind and loose" nor "listen to the church" speak to the issue of there being errors somewhere in the church at times.

Of course it does.


To "bind" a particular behavior or ethic was to make that behavior obligatory; to "loose" it was to make it optional. So the power to bind and loose is, essentially, to have the power to make decisions regarding doctrine and morality.

The Church's power, granted by Jesus and adminstered by the Holy Spirit, protects if from teaching false doctrine.

 

[racer]

Teaching errors would be inconsistent with being led into all truth. However, I agree that the Church makes mistakes in practive, but not in doctrine.

It only means that those who are teaching in error are being misled/deceived or are simply guilty of intentionally misleading/deceiving others.

Jesus also gave the Church power to bind and loose. He told us to listen to this Church.

Not in the sense that you argue. If I go in front of the congregation and declare repentence and declare that I am placing my salvation at Jesus' feet and all "outward" appearances seem to reflect that I have done that, then the only two people who may know different are myself and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. Those are the only ones who know a persons heart and sincerity. The church is bound to accept my declaration of repentence based upon my declaration.

 

[Albion]

True. I decided to find out which Church Jesus started.

Then you were "leaning on (your) own understanding."

I decided which Church was started by Jesus, then followed their teachings.

Exactly.

Absolutely false. Every protestant believe that the Catholic Church was not following Jesus, ie. Jesus abandoned his Church.

No, that's not what Protestants believe. I understand that you don't know much about Protestantism except to disavow it but you're wrong about this.

We have records in scripture and history of the apostles appointing successors.

When do you think they stopped doing this?

We have, in the Bible, a record of a few apostles appointing men to be pastors and evangelists. You might even say bishops, although that is not clearly indicated. What you have NO information on is your leap of faith that assumes that these men appointed others after them and, if so, who they were. We know that Peter appointed NO successor, so your entire Papal line is a myth.

 

[chestertonrules]

You are as much as the next person.

Nor do I.

I agree, except I, also, believe He will not abandon me. I think we can even argue that Jesus abandons no one, not even non-believers. It is people who abandon or reject Him.

Nope.

St. Augustine:

"What the soul is to man's body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member."
Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

 

[racer]

I am really sorry!

I think that there's something about the "Racer" name that strikes me as masculine, although there's no reason it has to, and when you and I haven't been posting on the same threads for awhile, I just forget.

MAYBE NOW, I'll get beyond all that.

Let's hope so . . .

 

[chestertonrules]

We have, in the Bible, a record of a few apostles appointing men to be pastors and evangelists. You might even say bishops, although that is not clearly indicated. What you have NO information on is your leap of faith that assumes that these men appointed others after them and, if so, who they were. We know that Peter appointed NO successor, so your entire Papal line is a myth.

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

 

[racer]

St. Augustine:

"What the soul is to man's body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member."
Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

I fail to make a connection between this citation of Augustine's and your assertion that the Church can not err. Is this suppose to establish that the RCC is "the church?" Sorry, it does not.

 

[Albion]

Of course it does.

LOL No, bind and loose does not refer to any imagined inability to teach error anywhere at any time. It's usually thought that it refers to the power to forgive or decline to remit sins.

The Church's power, granted by Jesus and adminstered by the Holy Spirit, protects if from teaching false doctrine.

You said that before. The only problems with it are 1) the church doesn't have this power, 2) Jesus did not grant such a power, 3) the Holy Spirit nowhere is described as an administrator, and 4) none of that--or anything else in scripture--indicates any protection from teaching false doctrine. Otherwise, I can agree to your sentence.

 

[Stryder06]

Thought that this was interesting.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my ekklesia ; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So the word translated as church means an assembly of people who are gathered together in one place. I thought that this was interesting because it doesn't say a "specific" gathering of people (outside the example of the Israelites).

The definition doesn't mention anything about Pastors, Elders, Deacons, or even a building for that matter. So in other words, Jesus didn't start an "organization" per se, rather He planned on bringing people together with the truth that Peter spoke about Him being the Son of God.

 

[chestertonrules]

I fail to make a connection between this citation of Augustine's and your assertion that the Church can not err. Is this suppose to establish that the RCC is "the church?" Sorry, it does not.

It demonstrates that the authority of the Church to make doctrine has always been understod by Christians.

Your view is new and inconsistent with the words of Jesus and the instructions of the apostles.

 

[Albion]

I fail to make a connection between this citation of Augustine's and your assertion that the Church can not err. Is this suppose to establish that the RCC is "the church?" Sorry, it does not.

It is peculiar, isn't it, that people who cannot bring themselves to trust the Word of God, easily put their complete confidence in whatever some "saint" hundreds of years removed from the Apostolic Church had to say?

 

[chestertonrules]

The definition doesn't mention anything about Pastors, Elders, Deacons, or even a building for that matter. So in other words, Jesus didn't start an "organization" per se, rather He planned on bringing people together with the truth that Peter spoke about Him being the Son of God.

Seems like splitting hairs to me.

Why did Jesus give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the apostles the power to bind and loose?

 

[Stryder06]

It demonstrates that the authority of the Church to make doctrine has always been understod by Christians.

Your view is new and inconsistent with the words of Jesus and the instructions of the apostles.

I think I missed something here. What scripture says that the church has authority to make doctrine?

I remember the bible saying that it is sufficient for making doctrine.

 

[chestertonrules]

It is peculiar, isn't it, that people who cannot bring themselves to trust the Word of God, easily put their complete confidence in whatever some "saint" hundreds of years removed from the Apostolic Church had to say?

That is peculiar. What's more peculiar is abandoning the Church of Jesus and following a King who left the Church in order to get a divorce.

Speaking of the bible:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

[Albion]

It demonstrates that the authority of the Church to make doctrine has always been understod by Christians.

No, it doesn't. Augustine lived nowhere near the time of the early church.

Your view is new

Definitely not that. It's very standard theology. Now...the idea that there is a church means that the church can never make any mistakes...that's new or at least unusual.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, it doesn't. Augustine lived nowhere near the time of the early church.



Definitely not that. It's very standard theology. Now...the idea that there is a church means that the church can never make any mistakes...that's new or at least unusual.

Yes, very new.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[Stryder06]

Seems like splitting hairs to me.

Why did Jesus give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the apostles the power to bind and loose?

It's not splitting hairs. Your thread asks would God allow his Church to teach falsehoods? The body of believers is the church. It's not a particular sect of people within the body, but the body as a whole.

And God wasn't talking exclusively to Peter, nor the apostles as far as the keys of the kingdom or the power to bind and loose.

Tell me what power Peter could have exercised that you cannot if your faith is true? As far as binding and loosing is concerned, it's not difficult to understand. If a brother/sister is living in sin, but comes to church and seeks the Lord's forgiveness, and that person is accepted back into the church, they are accepted back into the heavenly family. If that individual determines to not repent and they are put out of the church then the opposite applies.