Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

[christianmomof3]

"How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?"

How can Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy be the will of Jesus if they are teaching falsehoods?

I don't think protestantism is the will of Jesus. Do you?

No. I don't think that either Protestantism or Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy or any religion is the will of Jesus.

Well, I'm a convert and I had many misconceptions about the Catholic Church as a protestant.

I am a born again Christian who was raised in the Reform Jewish religion and I had a lot of misconceptions about Christianity.

I was completely unaware of the writings of the Early Fathers and disinterested in the early Church.

I was too, but I have read some of them and I love Athanasius and have found the writings I have read very interesting.

I think this is typical among protestants and I would like to provoke them into further study..

I think all Christians should study the Bible more and should also study church history more.

I don't think I've posted anything uncivil, or at least I hope I haven't..

I think calling Protestant teachings falsehoods would fall into that category. I feel that many Catholic teachings are proper however I find some of them - especially those regarding praying to dead people to be falsehoods. Do you think that is uncivil?

I don't think protestantism can be reconciled with the early Church or with scripture, but unless the tough questions are posed, I don't think that a protestant would necessarily consider them.

I don't think that any current relgious group can be reconciled with the early Church necessarily.
I do not think that RCC or Orthodoxy reconcile with scripture.

However, I do think that both the RCC and Orthodoxy have great truths about the Lord and if you look only at their teachings regarding the Lord and leave out practices and traditonal things and teachings regarding prayer to dead people, then we actually have more in common than we have differences.

I have taken some online religion quizzes in the past and come out 100% in agreement with RCC. Those quizzes did not address the practices but rather only the beliefs about the Lord.

The Bible does not say that we will ever be one in practices, rather it says we will be One in Christ.
A Body divided is not what the Lord wants nor is it what He is building up nor is it what will bring Him back, nor is it His Bride. Despite it's claims to be one, the members of the RCC are not one in Christ. Some of them are, but the group as a whole certainly is not.

The Body of Christ includes members who meet with many different Christian religious groups and some who do not meet with any of them.
Only Christ knows who are His and who are not.

 

[Yarddog]

How can Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy be the will of Jesus if they are teaching falsehoods?

Hello Mom, You may know but the quote that you attribute to me was not mine but the OP, and Chesterton rules.
Originally Posted by Yarddog "How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?"

You also make many good points in your post.

 

[Montalban]

Would Jesus allow Christians to sin?

I think this confuses 'church' with the people in it.

Jesus made a promise that the gates of hell would not prevail - often taken to believe that his church would not fail.

Individuals are still left with free will.

I think your confusion is akin to saying America is not democratic because (some) people WITHIN AMERICA don't believe in democracy. It is for the very resaon it has some elements who freely wish to oppose it, that it is by that nature, democratic.

In the church there are people who don't follow what the church's ideals are. This doesn't mean the ideals are base.

 

[MamaZ]

The Church is made up of individuals..

 

[Montalban]

The church consists of both the people together, and the individuals in it.

Like the Trinity itself, there's unity in diversity.

 

[Secundulus]

That would be correct (that Jesus started a church). The only thing is figuring out who the church is...

The Church is not a who, it is a what. It is the Kingdom he spoke about. Inside that Kingdom are some who follow him (wheat) and some who are in continual rebellion (chaff). Those in rebellion will eventually be removed.

The mistake is in thinking that the Kingdom is made up simply of isolated individuals.

This Kingdom is a body. It is not simply amputated bodyparts lying around at random.

 

[Stryder06]

The Church is not a who, it is a what. It is the Kingdom he spoke about. Inside that Kingdom are some who follow him (wheat) and some who are in continual rebellion (chaff). Those in rebellion will eventually be removed.

The mistake is in thinking that the Kingdom is made up simply of isolated individuals.

This Kingdom is a body. It is not simply amputated bodyparts lying around at random.

You missed my point, or you simply disagree with me. The church is comprised of many individuals who together make up the one body. These individuals will are those who keep the commandments of God. (And no I'm not trying to turn this into a sabbath thread as the commandments of God consist of more than that) Saying that you follow Christ doesn't mean a thing if your practices are in violation of what the scripture teaches.

A final call will go out, as we see in the book of Revelation, where God will summon His people from out of Babylon. One Shepherd, one flock. That's what Christ said. As we close in on His return, the line distinguishing His people from the false believers will become more distinguished. These individuals will come from everywhere. It isn't about "denomination" per se, it's about belief and obedience.

 

[christianmomof3]

A final call will go out, as we see in the book of Revelation, where God will summon His people from out of Babylon. One Shepherd, one flock. That's what Christ said. As we close in on His return, the line distinguishing His people from the false believers will become more distinguished. These individuals will come from everywhere. It isn't about "denomination" per se, it's about belief and obedience.

It is not merely about belief and obedience. It is also about having Christ living in us.

 

[chestertonrules]

IIRC, the last time we did this I ended up exposing the quote mining. Not productive at all.

What you call quote mining is actually clear evidence about what the early Christian's believed and how they worshipped.

It was very productive in providing evidence that the early Christians were Catholic.


It was not productive for supporting your position, if that's what you mean.




One example among hundreds:

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

 

[chestertonrules]

The Church is not a who, it is a what. It is the Kingdom he spoke about. Inside that Kingdom are some who follow him (wheat) and some who are in continual rebellion (chaff). Those in rebellion will eventually be removed.

.

In order to be in rebellion there must be an authority to rebel against.

Without a Church, there is chaos.

 

[Stryder06]

It is not merely about belief and obedience. It is also about having Christ living in us.

Which will happen is you believe.Forgive me, I tend to speak in general terms about certain things, omitting details I think go without saying.

 

[Stryder06]

In order to be in rebellion there must be an authority to rebel against.

Without a Church, there is chaos.

I'd like to think that without a law there would be chaos

Seen the show called Law & Order? Ever wonder why Law comes before Order? Can't have one without the other.

 

[chestertonrules]

I'd like to think that without a law there would be chaos

Seen the show called Law & Order? Ever wonder why Law comes before Order? Can't have one without the other.

The commandments of Jesus are preserved and proclaimed by the Church.

Individuals have to choose whether to obey the commandments of Jesus, with God's grace, or to reject them.

 

[Stryder06]

The commandments of Jesus are preserved and proclaimed by the Church.

Individuals have to choose whether to obey the commandments of Jesus, with God's grace, or to reject them.

True. The problem is that not every "church" teaches the commandments of Jesus. Some are too busy advocating their demise, while others are busy rewriting them.

 

[chestertonrules]

True. The problem is that not every "church" teaches the commandments of Jesus. Some are too busy advocating their demise, while others are busy rewriting them.

Jesus only started one Church.

All others may have parts of the Truth, but the fullness of Truth exists only in the Catholic Church.

 

[Stryder06]

Jesus only started one Church.

Agreed.

All others may have parts of the Truth, but the fullness of Truth exists only in the Catholic Church.

To the law and the testimony my friend. The catholic church isn't the church Jesus started as it fails that test.

 

[chestertonrules]

Agreed.


To the law and the testimony my friend. The catholic church isn't the church Jesus started as it fails that test.

I have no idea what test you are referring to.

The Catholic Church is the only possible Church given that all other Churches came into existence centuries later.

 

[Stryder06]

I have no idea what test you are referring to.

The Catholic Church is the only possible Church given that all other Churches came into existence centuries later.

Test: Isa 8:20

The Catholic Church is not the only possible church, as many of their practices are not biblical. The catholic church has become an entity in and of itself by its own word and has established itself as the "Mother" by her own word.

The Catholic church has granted herself authority that belongs to God and God alone. As such, she is not the church that God established. By their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[christianmomof3]

Test: Isa 8:20

Interesting chapter to quote. Here are some interesting verses from it:

Isaiah 8:13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
14 and he will be a sanctuary;

And these verses are also quite interesting:

19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. 21 Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. 22 Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness.

 

[chestertonrules]

Test: Isa 8:20

The Catholic Church is not the only possible church, as many of their practices are not biblical.

The Catholic Church is biblical. In fact, the Catholic Church wrote, compiled, preserved and proclaimed the New Testament by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic church has granted herself authority that belongs to God and God alone. As such, she is not the church that God established. By their fruits ye shall know them.

The Catholic Church is the body of Christ and he gave the Church authority.

2.2 billion Christians in the world. 1.2 billion Catholics. Largest charity in the world.

In every slum around the world you will find Catholic priests, nuns, and laymen working to demonstrate and share the love of Jesus.

By your fruits you will know them.

Catholics, like all others, are sinners. Individual sinners cannot destroy the Church built by Jesus.